Phil:
So, we're delighted to welcome onto the underground today, Karen Wilkinson, the marketing director for UK and Ireland for Evergreen Garden Care. Welcome, Karen.

Karen:
Thanks, Phil. Great to be here with you this morning.

Kate:
Hi, Karen.

Karen:
Hi, Kate.

Phil:
So, Karen, maybe we could start. For those people who don't know who you are. Maybe you could just give us a little bit of background about your role at Evergreen Garden Care and what that involves.

Karen:
Yeah. So, I'm responsible for all our products and portfolio and growing our brands in Evergreen in the UK and Ireland. So that responsibility covers everything from Miracle-Gro to Leavington. Roundup, Weedol. And it's a really exciting role I've had now for, just under two years.

Phil:
Fantastic.

Kate:
Oh, gosh. So, said you've been in the role for just under two years. How have you found it stepping into that role?

Karen:
It's been really exciting. I've come from Akzo Nobel previously where which is the home of Dulux, which was all about, selling products and brands that helped improve your home. And it's such a delight to now be extending that to your garden, outside your home. Because there's so much potential and excitement in, gardening.

Kate:
So it's quite a natural progression, isn't it?

Karen:
Absolutely, absolutely. It's, you know, it's just simply extending, homes to gardens and how we live.

Phil:
So, Karen, you mentioned there that you came from, Akzo Nobel. What has surprised you the most about coming into the garden sector compared to the paint and DIY category that you were in before

Karen:
There's so many similarities. People mightn’t make an automatic connection between the world of paints in the world of garden care. But ultimately, as a nation, we take pride in our homes and our gardens. We… our spaces that we live in every day mean a lot to us. They're very emotional places for us. And as a result, they're really important.
So that's the first thing probably that's very similar. But the other similarity is whether it's garden care or doing DIY at home. It's… they’re often tasks that you need some help and often seek some education or need some more information along the way as you're doing that task. I think in gardening, no matter how experienced you are, how long you've been gardening, people are always looking for some help, advice and information on the products to use the plant they're trying to grow, their soil conditions, what the weather is doing in the year so that kind of need for some help, guidance, reassurance is very similar.
And I would say the third thing that is really similar is the fact that we're in a regulation environment and regulations are changing all the time, whether that's you know, linked to packaging and plastic tax or whether that's linked to ingredients and products. The landscape around us in terms of legislation and regulations changing all the time, and that ultimately means needing to adapt products, portfolios and also the guidance you're giving to customers on how to use them.

Kate:
So Evergreen, always has a strong presence at Glee. And one of the reasons for our new series is, is the lead up to Glee. We're all talking about Glee. So, what can visitors expect from you at the show this year?

Karen:
Well, first of all, Kate, they can expect a very warm welcome. We have lots of people on a very bright and colourful stand this year. And, we have lots of new news. We have, new pack designs, on some of our Miracle-Gro products. We can get hands on with our products in terms of quality and growing media, so we have a potting shed where we'll be talking about quality and our free journey there. We've also got exciting information around, our marketing campaigns for next year. Yeah. And, really, I think we're super excited to engage with our retailers and get their feedback and also show them what we've done with the things they've told us over the last 12 and 18 months.

Kate:
Right. Fantastic.
Can I can I just add the best coffee in the show?

Karen:
There will definitely be very good coffee. That that is one part of feedback we continue to get to keep the good coffee.

Phil:
Excellent. So, you've said about some of the different things there that you're going to be showing. Are there any things that you are particularly excited about showcasing for the first time? So any innovations or, campaigns that you're going to be, showcasing?

Karen:
Yeah, we have a brand new campaign for Miracle-Gro next year, so that is going to be on the stand. We’ll be revealing the campaign headline, and details of that. We have, our Miracle-Gro All Purpose Peat Free Compost has a brand new look on the bag. And also our plant food range has a whole new look next year as well.
So, you'll see those designs which actually also have new claims. And just like we did with our lawn care range, there's easier to follow information, help and advice, point of sale and on the backs of those packs. So actually the packaging is really exciting to share with you.
So we’ve got the marketing campaign, the packaging, and then we also have done a huge amount of work this year around looking at growth drivers for the category overall for the next five years. So we'll also be sharing with customers what those growth drivers are, what they mean, how we're using them as a brand. So there's lots to see and engage with.

Phil:
Fantastic. I think we'll come on to that in a little bit.

Kate:
Yeah. So why do you think, Karen, it's so important for big suppliers like Evergreen to have a presence at Glee.

Karen: 09:43
I think Glee is just a trade fair like no other. It's more than a trade fair. It's, you know, it's a leading garden care event. It's a place where the whole industry comes together over three days to not just look at what the new news is and secure listings and, early season orders. More importantly, it's about looking at where the category is going and how it's evolving and changing and how we're responding to, gardeners needs around the country collectively.
I think this ability to share insights, take feedback, build stronger plans is a huge, important part of Glee. That networking, element to the show is so powerful. And it's something I'm really looking forward to.

Phil:
Do you, use it as an opportunity to have a look around and see what everyone else is doing as well?

Karen:
Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, collectively we are the garden care category. And, you know, I'll share with you, about more about the category vision. That is not about Evergreen’s growth. That's about how the whole industry is growing together. That's retailers, that's manufacturers, that's gardeners up and down the country buying different things, doing different things. And I think seeing all the manufacturers and, brands and retailers at the show really gives you a sense of the direction of travel for the industry overall and where the opportunities are. And you always get sparked by inspiration, excitement, going around the stands.

Phil:
So, Evergreen works across several garden care categories and I understand, that as a business that you've just agreed your five year category vision. So, can you give us an idea of how you see the category evolving?

Karen:
Yeah. At the end of last year, it was a tough season. It was a tough season for garden care overall, and we could really see that spike of adrenaline that we all enjoyed during Covid had had ebbed, and, with a challenging weather season like we had last year, it was really clear that there's fundamentally two types of shoppers in the garden care category: Those that are any weather that will no matter what the elements throw them, they all do the tasks in their garden and spend time in their garden and in the category, every year. Where others are more fair weather, occasional gardeners. And I think last year they were they were the people we probably just didn't have in the garden care shopping.
So, this year, at the beginning of this year, we took a step back to look at the long-term evolution of the category. So that actually what do we need to do? What can we as brands, as manufacturers, as, as retailers in the category do to drive real, meaningful growth over the next 5 to 10 years? Because while gardening hasn't changed fundamentally, we're still doing the same things in our garden. Gardeners have, and the way we're living has changed significantly, whether that's the size of our gardens, whether that's renting instead of owning our homes, whether that's the amount of time that you have to spend or the immense knowledge you have. Gardeners have changed. And we have now new media channels like social media, either to get advice or to share inspiration.
So, the drivers of growth in the category are really different than perhaps they were a decade ago. So as part of looking at a category vision, this went far bigger than Evergreen and any individual brand. We took a broad lens and looking at how can we ultimately encourage new shoppers and new gardeners into the category; for those who are in the category, how can we encourage them to do another job, add another item to their baskets, maybe spend just £1 more? What are those triggers that will drive and fuel growth for everyone and keep this and such a vibrant, growing, category.
So, that is kind of what the category vision lens looks at. And what we saw was an opportunity… or what we can see is an opportunity of over £152 million of incremental growth that could be locked if we were to do all those things of getting new gardeners into the category, or encourage those current gardeners to do things differently or do some more jobs in the garden.

Phil:
So, so could you give us, an example or a couple of examples of what you've discovered or have been looking at?

Karen:
Yeah, I would love to. So we have, five drivers: I'll give you an overview them one by one. But they're all quite different.
The first driver is all about how can we attract new gardeners into the world of garden care and fall in love with their gardens and be inspired to take on gardening as a task?
So that is all about potentially looking at life changes and life stages. What are those moments where people garden for the very first time? We can see things like when somebody buys a new home clearly, whether that's buying a home that already has an established mature garden or actually, more immediately, perhaps buying a new build that has a small garden, perhaps with a bit of lawn that they want to make their stamp on. And we recognise when they move into to new homes. Often your garden isn't your first priority. If you're not already an existing gardener, but perhaps year two and year three, you're living in their home. They're really beginning to look outside and think, what could they do? So that's a moment that we can tap into to show those new homeowners, how they can make the most of a garden.
Equally, we see when people get pets, they often start to use the garden in a different way or have children as another moment or perhaps even, retire or start changing how they work so that those that have more time to be at home as well. It's another trigger time. So, we see these life stage moments where people… there's an opportunity or people might be considering and looking at their garden in a different way, then we can really tap into and help them and help to show how they can unlock value.
So that alone, if we simply increase gardeners by between 1 and 2%, that's already over 40 million growth in the category over a five-year period.

Kate:
Yeah, and it's been a good season to start doing that as well, hasn't it, compared to last year.

Karen:
Absolutely. So, we can't we call that driver: Your Journey Begins because that really is about taking that first step into the world of gardening.
Another driver then is around actually for people who are already gardeners, those keen gardeners or maybe occasional gardeners, how can we inspire them to do the next project? So, whether that is perhaps they've had successes in, with their beds and borders and they're thinking of grow their own. They might be starting with the veg trug and they've had some good success there and now they're thinking about doing some, some beds, some veg beds at the end of the garden or, or perhaps even moving into considering, a greenhouse or cold frame and growing from seed. We see that there's lots of opportunities and excitement actually in the category around partnerships across brands, potentially there, to be giving gardeners all the things they need and the knowledge as well as the right products and tools to go home and take on a new project in their garden. We'd love to see people doing something new in their garden each year, clearly. And that as an opportunity, is also significantly, rich in value and could and could be worth upwards of £30 million to the category.

Phil:
Amazing.

Karen:
We've also looked at opportunities around lawns. We know that the UK and Ireland are our lawn lovers. We have, great, lots of lawns around the country. They might be smaller than they were in the past, as, as people, you know, have to find space for car parking in their front lawns or maybe using their gardens differently.
But if we can encourage people to spend time looking after their lawn, enjoy their lawn, and show them how easy it can be, or help guide them through the, the season with their lawn, that also can be really lucrative for us. So that might be encouraging someone, not just from putting a lawn care product down in their lawn in March, but also coming back and maintaining their lawn through the summer with a feed with seed and coming into the lawn care range. So again, even just one more product in the lawn care category, one more visit to the garden centre to buy a lawn care product can be worth nearly £20 million over five years.
We also see them. The category is it's a competitive category right. We've we know we've there's lots of products on offer. But ultimately, we all want to grow and add value to this category. And we can do that also to showing gardeners what's worth paying more for, what's worth paying extra. So, if you're investing in your garden, you want to know the products are going to work. You want to know you're going to get great results. And ultimately, we need to help shoppers and gardeners understand what they're paying for. So, what does that kind of trade up journey through? Through store the good, better, best choices that they're faced with and why one product is more expensive than another. But what those performance claims reasons to pay more for are, and I think that's something that we're… that is quite difficult actually for shoppers to understand today.

Phil:
It's a competitive, category, isn't it? Lawn care, especially.

Karen:
It is. it is. And lots of claims that are either sound similar or just not quite clear why one what one product does versus another.
And the fifth driver that we see is all about kind of urban oasis we're living in. We're living, often in smaller spaces. I mentioned earlier on about renting, where you might be in a place that's not your own.
So actually, what are the opportunities around gardening in smaller spaces? Gardening and in pots, houseplants, balcony gardens. We saw that at Chelsea this year, the beautiful balcony gardens, small space gardening can be tricky, as we know, but actually it can also be, really rich and of potential if you give them some advice, and help.
And we've also seen, you know, whether that's small, grow your own chillies, for example, take up less space to grow perhaps than tomatoes, but it can be just as fun and rewarding. So, this this, driver around how can the category respond to the needs of people with smaller gardens, smaller spaces, or perhaps doing community garden projects, and growing together with others. How can as a category we help provide solutions and information, to that and encourage more people to garden, even if they haven't got a huge garden, because you don't always need that.

Kate:
So, you're talking quite a lot about a lot of education and inspiration, aren't you? How do you go about it? I mean, we have Gardeners World on a Friday, which is very much a certain audience. How do you see you can attract these newer, maybe the newer, younger generation that are in the new build homes. Are you looking at a kind of education program or just getting everybody on board within the garden sector?

Karen:
We are Kate, and we're looking at education really seriously. I think since joining the garden care category, I hear this from everyone, whether it's shoppers, gardeners, whether it's retailers saying help us educate, whether it's retailers with their store staff or looking at how can we help shoppers make that journey easier? Education: the need is there, everywhere. And it’s a real opportunity, I think, for the category. And today it's about going where people are looking for help and advice. They're turning online to TikTok, to YouTube. People are going online as well as using and you know, using channels like TV for inspiration and magazines, those traditional media channels. But that's not the only place. And I think particularly people who are new, potential new gardeners, we've got to meet them perhaps more in their house and home media channels where if they're buying a new house, where they're already doing something else and they get, inspired there to start to consider the garden as well.

Phil:
So if we can just come back to the urban oasis driver then for a second. I was just going to ask you, so can we expect to see, Evergreen getting into more into sort of that sort of arena sort of houseplant range or something like that?

Kate:
For us Phil, it's more about how we communicate to that audience and how we, offer that help, guidance and total solution to people who have a smaller space. So, this for us is about attracting new shoppers. This is how Evergreen sees this driver unlocking for us. That's not to say a retailer will see it in the same way, but certainly, from our perspective, we see Urban Oasis is recognising people have smaller spaces to garden in. They might be living in cities and don't have a car necessarily, so how are they getting their products? They might have to carry products up flights of stairs if they're in an apartment block. So, it's much more than just houseplants and it's much more than just products and ranges. It's responding and recognising the changing needs of the way people are living and the types of considerations we have when we're looking at communications products, pack sizes. And, and I think that's really important because while that is the driver is actually the smallest driver of the work that we've done with an opportunity around 15 million over five years. They are the gardeners of the future. If we can encourage them to garden on the first project, perhaps on the first flat it might be through houseplants, it might be growing chillies on their on their balcony. Then they will be the gardeners of the future when they get a home and a bigger garden that will invest more, you know, have triggered that interest and invest more in their garden later on.

Phil:
So that leads me nicely on to so how do you, balance, driving category growth for the whole sector while still delivering for your own brands then?

Karen:
Yeah, I think this category work, as I said at the beginning is bigger than Evergreen, first of all. So, it's really looking at gardeners, shoppers, the category overall. Then we look at that in terms of our portfolio, our brands, what we're doing as a business, our strategic roadmap. And look at whether we’re making the right choices and prioritising the right things based on the opportunities that are in front of us.
We see big opportunities in inspiring and attracting new people into the category. But we also see the opportunities around, demonstrating why a product is worth paying more for and providing that health and education to everybody, whether that is, an experienced gardener or a new gardener. And we're obviously fortunate enough to have a portfolio of brands, and we think our brands can play in different ways against these drivers as well.
So for sure, Miracle-Gro is a brand that speaks to all types of gardeners, but it offers many easy, quick, convenient, guaranteed result solutions that really help us to also speak to people who are, maybe not as knowledgeable as more a horticultural shopper, who might be looking to our Levington brand, might be looking at our straights range and considering different products for more experienced gardeners.
So that's how we're using it. But actually we're also speaking with, our customers, our retailers about what resonates with them, what are the audiences that they want to, communicate to, where do they see opportunities for them, and how can we partner to unlock that opportunity? So, it's not just, I guess one dimension to how we unlock growth. And we will continue to evolve our plans and, and always bring them back to how do these ladder up to where the growth is coming from in the next, you know, in the next five years?

Kate:
Okay. So, Karen, you talked about, a kind of new generation of gardeners, people coming into it for the first time. And within that, I think we've definitely seen, a growing demand for more sustainable and peat free gardening products. How is Evergreen responding to this growing demand?

Karen:
Yeah. I mean, we continue to invest in peat free. We as Evergreen now are entirely peat free. So, we are fully committed. We're in for the long haul and this is fundamentally, our priority, our focus and our core expertise. The last 12 months alone, we've invested over £4 million in our operational side of our business so that we can manufacture at scale consistently and meet the peaks of the season when they come, just as they did this year while delivering that consistent, reliable quality, and assuring people that when they use our products, they get the performance they're paying for.
And that is really important to us. So yeah, for us it's a journey of continuous investment, continuous learning, continuous improvement. But actually this year has been really exciting because after the investments in our operations, we ran big market trials. This season, many garden centres took part, grew with our products, gave us feedback, and we're taking that feedback constructively into our R&D and our quality teams. But overwhelmingly, the response was hugely positive. And we've heard garden centres play back to us: this is quality that they've not seen before and that they are really impressed with. And that is exactly what we want to hear and see.

Phil:
Now, that's great to hear because that actually feeds back into the retailers feeling confident in selling your products as well doesn't it?

Karen:
Absolutely Phil, this isn't about us just saying trust us. Believe us. We've grown everything perfectly in a greenhouse in perfect conditions. This is about real world experience for gardeners who are using the products in their homes and their gardens in different ways, whatever the weather. And we are really confident in the performance of the product through everything that we've done.
But ultimately, we'll be judged by the people who use the product. And that's why this year was so fantastic, to have garden centres participating in the trials, growing up and down the country in greenhouses and baskets. We've seen some of the projects go into community projects and baskets along canals. And it's been absolutely wonderful to see and see that trust, belief and confidence come from people using the product.
And that really is our journey of… and our job as, as communicators, and marketers is to make sure that people are understanding what they're buying, how it works, how to get great results, and, and reassure that it's easy.

Kate:
So that that kind of leads on nicely to my next question, which is, and you have, briefly mentioned this, you are introducing, well miracle Miracle-Gro are introducing a new performance guarantee. So, can you tell us a bit more what it means and why building consumer trust is such a priority right now?

Karen:
Miracle-Gro is really excited to be launching a quality guarantee next year. We've always had it, actually. Miracle-Gro has always famously got the claim on the back of pack about plants growing twice as big, except this guarantee is going to be front and centre. It's coming on the front of pack, it will be in all our communications. And it's not just about size. It's about bigger plants, healthier plants, greener leaves, more flowers. And that is what we are guaranteeing you will get when you use our products, whether that's the growing media compost or whether that is a Miracle-Gro plant food. Miracle-Gro’s giving that support, that encouragement, that reassurance to people who are buying the product that it works. Because fundamentally, if something doesn't deliver on what you're, why you're buying it, you won't buy it again. And that's not just a brand. It's it can be a whole category potentially. So, we're really excited about it. We think it's really needed now because there's been so much noise about performance of peat free, there's a huge range of peat free options, out in the markets.
We've been talking for many years now, about the fact that not all peat free is made equally. We also hear some people are not familiar with what the difference between Peat and Pete Free is. But fundamentally, they're buying compost because they want to grow something, and they want their plants to be beautiful. It's like the fuel, the oil that you put in the engineer car, you're buying the product to deliver something else.
And you want the reassurance that it's money well spent. You're doing the right thing by the environment, but ultimately that your flowers are going to bloom, thrive, grow and be healthy. And that's what we are putting front and centre of all our communications.

Phil:
So, from a consumer's point of view, Karen, how does your quality guarantee work?

Karen:
It's designed to be really easy Phil. It is all about simply encouraging the consumer to contact us if they're not happy. We would love them to plant their flower or their shrub. We will encourage them to take a photo of that when they plant it up, equally when they start feeding their plant, and if they're not happy after the time that the product says, whether that's three months, we want them to get in touch with us and tell us and we'll happily replace the product. We've got a line of garden gurus that are, horticulturally trained that will be on hand to take calls from consumers, and they will simply have a conversation, have a look at a picture of the product and will replace the product if there's any doubt or dissatisfaction from the customer.

Phil:
Fantastic. So it's the Miracle-Gro hotline.

Kate:
That's it.

Karen:
The Miracle-Gro garden gurus.

Phil:
Brilliant.

Kate:
So do you see this is something that could influence the wider industry and how it demonstrates quality and performance. Because, you did mention it, and one of the things we've talked a lot about peat free on this podcast and everybody just keeps going back to that, the disparity in quality with peat free and how it is undermining consumer confidence.

Karen:
I really hope others will follow Kate. I think this is a really important commitment to consumers in the trust that they can have when they buy quality products. I hope that other manufacturers follow suit so that confidence will build over time. And, ultimately elevate the standards of peat free in the industry.

Phil:
So Karen, we're just going to change tack a little bit. I know you've worked on some of the UK's most recognised brands. In your view, what are the key principles of strategic brand building that apply across industries, including gardening.

Karen:
I think the first and most important thing is to listen to your consumer and to be consumer orientated. But that sounds like quite a generic term. But really listen to what your shoppers need, want, where they're having challenges, how, how you can help them. So, I think that consumer insight, consumer led brand building is hugely important. It also informs us as to where they're going. To your question earlier on Kate around how do you reach audiences? Well you understand where they are going, what platforms, what media they're using so that you can respond accordingly. So, being consumer first is most important.
The second one is about building brand trust. Because if you don't have that trust, well then actually there's many choices. And anything you're behind that you could go to alternative brands or make different choices for your needs. So, it's really key that a brand builds trust with their shoppers, particularly if you're a brand that is trying to position itself at a premium end to the market.
And the third thing then is just make it easy for your consumers, whether that is explaining what you're doing, what you're selling, why one product is a better choice than another. We've got to make it easy for consumers. So I think that is something particularly in our category, we don't do brilliantly, but I think it's common in many categories that are quite complex and involved. But we have to try and make the brand clearly communicate the reasons to believe, the reasons to buy, the reasons to pay more for, and ultimately create an emotional connection with your, with your consumer so that actually your brand feels something when they think of it.

Phil:
Yeah, that's great. And actually those three things that you said there, so building on consumer insights, building trust and making it easy - all reflect back to the things that you've been talking about to us throughout our conversation. So it's good to see how as a business and a brand, you're working to bring those to the fore.
I've got another a follow up question to that, Karen. So, for smaller brands or independents in the garden sector, what would be your advice for building a strong brand identity? But maybe without the budgets that Miracle-Gro might have.

Karen:
Yeah, I think first of all, it starts with knowing your audience. Who is it you're trying to communicate? You know what need are you solving with your with your proposition, whether that's that you're a garden centre, trying to win new shoppers or you're a brand trying to win those shoppers.
I think the second thing is being distinctive, actually, how do you stand apart from other choices on the shelf or in the town? What is different and distinctive about your offer to somebody else's?
And thirdly, I would say gardening is a very emotional category. And I think a lot of the category at the moment is very functional and technical. And there's an opportunity to build more emotion into how we communicate, how brands communicate and what they stand for. And it's playful, it's joyful. And I think, that mix of being distinct, of understanding who you're targeting, but doing it in a way that stands apart and yeah, makes makes consumers feel something would be my advice.

Kate:
I like that because gardening is so emotional. I mean, it really is. I mean, we talk about it changing people's health, you know, what's gardening for wellbeing. So, it really is at the forefront of a lot of people's health and wellbeing. So, to hear you say that, I think that's absolutely spot on.

Phil:
So, Karen, what's one change that you would love to see in the garden sector over the next five years?

Karen:
Choosing one is really hard, but aside from hoping the government do the right thing in relation to, the retail ban on peat. I think looking at how we're educating gardeners and, and changing the way we're giving help and advice guidance to gardeners is one thing I would love to see the category embracing. So, whether that's a point of sale, whether that's online, whether that's on packs, I think the category talks in quite, overwhelming language sometimes. And, and I think for us to attract new people into the category, and to encourage them to give it a go, have fun and joy, learn from the failures, celebrate the successes. We've got to educate in a way that, gives help and information in a way that's really accessible, doesn't alienate and encourages rather than puts people off. So that is my one hope. And, I'm excited to, to play a part in that with our brands. But I hope the category, continues to focus on the importance of education for all audiences.

Kate:
And a bit like I said, it is connecting with people, isn't it? Connecting with their emotions.

Karen:
Absolutely.

Kate:
So Karen, we're going to finish off just with a question that I ask all our guests, whether you're a gardener or not. Do you have a plant or flower that no matter, how bad things are going, it will always put a smile on your face.

Karen:
Do you know Kate, I think it would have to be the Agapanthus. I love everything about it. I love its name, I would say, I love how grand and tall and proud it is. And I've been… It's put a smile on my face a number of times this summer I've been in our offices and in France, and I've seen it growing in 40 degrees on roundabouts in full splendour, looking amazing.
And then I've been in the west of Ireland and seen it growing on grass verges and just making the landscape all the more brighter. So you know it can… it’s as fitting by a dry stone wall in Connemara, in Ireland, as it is in a Chelsea garden. And I absolutely love it.

Kate:
Ah, that’s wonderful. You're the first person to say Agapanthus. I love that because, living in South Devon, it just… it's like a weed. It's just amazing. But it is, it's so regal, isn't it?

Karen:
Absolutely beautiful.

Kate:
But it's so easy to grow. You know, a lot of people, as long as you've got a good amount of light, it's a great plant to grow. But it's one that looks like it should be really difficult.
But actually…

Karen:
It does, it does. It's, bold. It's bright. It's proud. It’s majestic. I love it.

Kate:
Yeah. Great choice.

Phil:
So I think that just about wraps things up. Thank you so much, Karen, for coming on and talking us through, what you've got coming up at Glee and the new category vision that you've got as well. It's been really, insightful and yeah, a fantastic chat.

Karen
Thank you Phil, thank you Kate.