Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now. As well as recording 20 interviews, Kate and I ventured out of our recording booth to gain some insights from exhibitors on the show floor.
In this episode we get two contrasting perspectives on the garden centre business both big and small. First, we’ll hear from Amy and Libby Stubbs from British Garden Centres, a group that now comprises over 70 garden centres, and we also speak with the Reverand Dave Walker, who, along with his son, purchased Birley Moor Garden Centre in Sheffield last year.

I'm absolutely delighted to say that we are joined by Amy and Libby Stubbs from British Garden Centres. Welcome both of you.

Kate:
Hello.

Amy & Libby:
Hello.

Phil:
So, welcome both of you, as I say. And before we get talking about the future of the garden centres, perhaps we should look at, British Garden Centres and the rapid growth that you've been through fairly recently. Tell me what the journey's been like from your perspective.

Amy:
So it's been pretty crazy, to be honest. But I absolutely loved every single minute of it. I think it's definitely made it very exciting and, forced both of us to be thrown in the deep end, but in a way that's made us learn so much as well. And I think the bit that's been best about it is that the whole team has really got on board with it and embraced it, and it's just made things a lot easier for us as well.

Phil:
Brilliant.

Kate:
How does it feel to be representing the story of British garden centres at Glee this year?

Libby:
I think it's amazing that we've even been presented with this opportunity. As an industry, we're just so glad to be celebrating its success.

Kate:
Yeah.

Phil:
So, Amy, you just recently been made the managing director of British Garden Centres. So congratulations on that new role.

Amy:
Thank you.

Phil:
Was leadership always something that you aspired to? And I know it's a family business, but there's always something that you thought you were going to aim for.

Amy:
Yeah, definitely. I think, all through my, childhood, I'd really enjoyed, being a leader. And I've always been quite a bossy boots. And I think, I really I knew that I wanted to climb the career ladder. I wanted to succeed. Well, and I think that's all fallen into this leadership.

Phil:
Right, fantastic.

Kate:
Looks like you've got where you wanted to.

Phil:
And has she always been a bossy boots?

Libby:
Absolutely!

Kate:
So can I just ask a really simple question: you’re both sisters, not cousins.

Amy & Libby:
Yes. Yes, sisters.

Kate:
And it's been a family business. For how long?

Amy:
35 years. So we celebrate 35 years this year.

Kate:
Right, goodness me, Brilliant. So, Amy, we've talked about how well you're doing. So, Libby, younger sister, would I be right?
Libby:
Yes, yes.

Kate:
But you're also involved at a high level. What made each of you want to be part of this industry? Especially when so many garden centres are struggling to pass on that baton and keep it within the family?

Libby:
I think it's such a friendly industry that if you ever need help with anything, you can literally go to anyone.
Growing up, I've always known that if I ever have a question, I can ask anybody and they'll always be willing to help. So that drove us in, and just trying to get the younger generation into the business. Yeah, just a passion to carry on the garden centre industry through the years.

Kate:
Just if you don't mind just leading on from that. Is it always something you've wanted to be involved in? Did you ever, when you were younger, think I don't want anything to do with the garden centre? Have you come back from doing something else or, it's always been in your blood?

Libby:
So I did sidetrack off for a little bit and want to be an architect, to fulfil my creative dreams.

Phil:
Well that sounds familiar.

Kate:
Phil did an architect degree.

Libby:
But I think just as I grew up seeing Amy thrive. She's just always been my inspiration really. Seeing her do so well, I was like, no, that's what I want to do. I want to be in that, too. So, yeah, it’s just been the inspiration of my family around me.

Kate:
Oh, lovely. Thank you.

Phil:
Oh, that's brilliant. So, do you see that, your generation bringing something different to the business, do you think? So maybe new ideas or new ways of working?

Amy:
I think we do, don’t we?

Libby:
Yeah. I think, we're always wanting to bring new innovation while still focusing on our core values that, in our case, our dad's brought in and built this, this successful business off. So, we've always wanted to do that, but whilst, again, still bringing in the younger generation, and doing that through innovation.

Phil:
Okay. And how does that manifest itself? What sort of things are you bringing into the business? Do you feel…

Amy:
I think some of the things are like technological changes.

Phil:
Okay.

Amy:
So I think, you know, looking at apps and marketing campaigns that, kind of a lot more technological driven and I think also then bringing in some more processes and efficiencies, I think, you know, we've been built on a business that's been used to be in quite a small, run and we very much act in a way as independents because we like to empower our centres. But with that, we need to bring in some process. And I think, that's probably the element that we've been able to bring in.

Phil:
Yeah. I mean, British Garden Centres are really embracing social media, you see it a lot, you know, which is great. And, I can see that being something which a lot of the other garden centres aren't doing in quite the same way that you guys are doing.

Amy:
Yeah, we're quite unique in that way because every centre has their own Facebook and her own Instagram page. And we do that because we want that centre to showcase its individuality. Which yeah, I think it's on an ever growing mission, as there is with kind of everything. There's somebody that's, you know, amazing at it and there's people that need some support. But that's where we've got such a good team that kind of work on that.

Kate:
How many centres are there?

Amy:
73

Kate:
73! Didn't realise it was that big, goodness me.

Phil:
I mean, we talk to you about, I'm just going to jump back in a little bit, but we talk to you about becoming the managing director. How daunting was that? I mean, was that just exciting, or is that… Do you feel the weight of that on your shoulders?

Amy:
A little bit, but I think I was really excited, because I've been part of the senior team for quite a while now and, kind of really working alongside them. And I was excited to be given that opportunity. Of course, it was a huge privilege and I feel like, yeah, a huge weight, on my shoulders. But I also know that there's a huge team around me that will support in that role. So yeah, more excited than anything.

Phil:
Oh, that's great to hear.

Kate:
Do you think - I'm just going to butt in a bit - do you think that's a question that you wouldn't ask Amy if Amy would say Andrew. I just find it interesting, have you found it, for both of you being more challenging, being younger women in a predominantly kind of male, older male industry? Or is it just something you just get on with it, you know?

Amy:
I think there's definitely part of it, that, it's, you know, I absolutely champion all the women. And so it's culture and industry, and I'm really glad that I think I've probably come in at a time where more and more women are involved, and therefore it's not so unfamiliar with everybody.

Kate:
Yeah. I wasn't being…

Phil:
No, no no no.

Kate:
Just recently we had the Horticultural Power List, and you were on there weren’t you?

Amy:
Yeah

Kate:
But I did notice there was, you know, much smaller amount of women, because there are less women in the industry, but it's so good and so inspiring to see two young women taking on these roles. But I'd like to get to a place where we don't have to ask you, how does it feel? You know to be a young woman in this role because there’s lots more people.

Phil:
Yeah. No, I think that's all right. But I think the question actually came from more of an age thing rather than a gender thing, because, you know, it's a big step.

Amy:
Oh it is definitely, and I think age is always a, difficult one. And I appreciate I'm a very young and I'm that's why I feel so honoured to be given the opportunity. But equally, we've got to bring the next generations through really.

Kate:
Absolutely.

Amy:
And people have got to be given the chance to do that. And I think as long as you've got good people around you who, if you do make mistakes because people do that, you know, you can work them out together.

Kate:
Yeah. So still sticking on the female kind of line, your both sisters and you’re co-leaders. How does that work on a day-to-day basis do you rub off against each other or do you just thrive off each other?

Amy:
I think we just thrive. We were talking about this on the way here, and there isn't really a secret to it. I think we just we get on so well, and we always look out for each other. We've never really had an argument. And I think we're just honest with each other. And I think that's all that kind of… Yeah, it just seems to work like that.

Kate:
I think that's great. It's so inspiring and uplifting to hear that it's wonderful.

Phil:
Yeah. So, Libby, a question for you then. Are there particular strengths or approaches that each of you bring, that complement each other or, you know, maybe one of you got is much better one thing than another. What do you think?

Libby:
Yeah. So, I think, growing up, it's always been quite known that, I have a more creative side than Amy. And she's got a more chatty side than me. And I think them two things working together mean that I can come up with ideas, and then Amy helps execute them. Because she's got that strive that's I’ve not always got because I'm not so confident. But I think then as we're working together, we're also rubbing off on each other. So, it's nice though I think we're both helping each other pick up other things that we didn't have before.

Phil:
Yeah. That's great.

Kate:
And do you ever get a chance to switch off from garden retail, or is that all you ever talk about?

Libby:
Well, I do think it's something that we are always in because we've grown up in it. But I think if we did switch off, it would feel weird. I think it's something that we're so used to now. Although we do on a Sunday night love a game of UNO and that sort of switch off. Very competition based. We also very much, wanting to win always. But, yeah, it’s a good switch off for us.

Kate:
But it's a passion, isn't it, as well, you've obviously both really passionate about what you do. It's not like you, an electrical appliance industry or something in a gardening is such a passion for people. And there's just such an emotive business as well.

Amy:
Yeah, definitely. And I think our dad always says that he feels like he's never worked day in his life because, you know, doing this job is just his hobby. And I think both of us do you feel like it is part of our life and it isn't just a job so therefore it doesn't need to be that clear divide, does it?

Libby:
No. And I also think it's such a what, like a wide industry. And the fact that there's so many different aspects that it's not just plants.

Kate:
No, not at all.

Libby:
It’s not just about that. There's so many places you can fit in.

Kate:
Cakes!

Libby:
Yeah, cakes, Christmas baubles. Anything really.

Kate:
Well just walking around here, there’s just so much isn’t there? Goodness me.

Phil:
Yeah. Brilliant. So, you're talking at Glee, which is going to be focussed on innovation. What does innovation look like to you in the context of garden retail? You mentioned some technology things. Are there specific things that you're going to be talking about in your talk at Glee?

Amy:
So I think there's a couple of aspects that we're definitely looking at. And there's probably changes that we've put in place, that probably can be seen as innovative, but I think probably the important thing for us as a business is that we're never afraid to change. We're never afraid to adapt. And I think although at one point something can seem innovative, like the next moment it could not or it's not going to work.
And I think the importance to not be afraid to try things, give things go and then also actually give honest feedback and honest analysis on it is really important to then being able to deliver these things if we do. But, you know, we really want to put an app in place. We've done quite a lot with our customer loyalty.
We are looking at like ways at checkouts can be slicker, more streamlined. I think it all links back to how do we operate a business that's more profitable in climates that are challenging when wages are going up and utility costs are going up. And how, I think that's what's forcing us to be innovative.

Phil:
Yeah. Interesting you mentioned there about loyalty. We've spoken to a few people just recently, and I think there's a general feeling that actually the garden industry and the garden centres could do an awful lot more around loyalty and customer loyalty. I think there are there are other retailers that are doing much better. Would you agree to that?

Amy:
Yeah, I think so. I think, as an industry, we've made some really good steps and I think there's some amazing examples out there. I personally think, you know, there's other companies within the industry we can learn a lot off. But then also then you do look at, you know, the supermarket industry other big retailers and how loyalty, you know, you take Tesco and the Clubcard and how that has litterally become, you know, the backbone of their business. I think there's so much opportunity.

Phil:
Yeah.

Kate:
So are there areas where you think the garden retail industry needs to just kind of evolve a lot more quickly than it is now?

Libby:
I think there's arguments for both sides. There's always going to be a customer that wants the fast checkout and the self-checkout, but I think for us through Covid, we recognise that so many of our customers value the face to face. And speaking to, our team on the tills, they build relationships because they're in every Sunday, getting their plants. Getting their cake. And they want to see them people every day. So, I think that was something we noticed over Covid that people missed that. So, there is a side to both, that there's people that want the quick side, but then there's also the people that want to see people.

Phil:
I'm going, I'm going to go off pace a little bit. I'm interested in the values that British Garden Centres has. And I know that, you guys get involved as a business with things like Garden Re-leaf Day for the Greenfingers Charity and recently we were we were doing some filming at the, dragon boat racing. And you guys entered two teams. From different places in the country, you know, they came, they came, took part. And it's all about raising funds for the charity. But I see that as, being, sort of set from above, that sort of value set of being community based, wanting to do the right thing - am I right?

Amy:
Yeah, you know definitely. And I think, we're a large garden centre business, but the bit that makes us unique is that we want every centre to feel like their local garden centre in that area. Which then forces us to work with the local communities and really build that local community feel. It also kind of encourages our teams on the ground to feel ownership and accountability for their centre.
And I think that kind of attitude and culture then does kind of flow through the whole business, so that then when we do want to get behind something as a group, so, we absolutely love Greenfingers and really want to support them, that then we do that, collectively as a whole and support it. This year for garden re-leaf we raised over £25,000 for Greenfingers in just one day.

Phil:
Ooh fantastic

Kate:
That’s wonderful.

Amy:
And that's just because centre's get behind it. Yeah. So yeah definitely.

Phil:
That's so good to hear. It really is, isn't it. You both grew up basically surrounded by the garden centre. What are your earliest memories of the business. Did you sort of, when you were growing up, were you actually aware that of what was being built around you, or…

Libby:
I think the first thing that stands out for me is one of my first memories that I can remember from the garden centre is we used to live at Woodthorpe, which was our first site, and Easter morning, the Easter Bunny for us had done the Easter egg hunt around the garden centre, so I think that was probably that's probably my first memory from that. And then when you go into school and speak about your Easter egg hunt, and I think that for me is like, oh, my life’s a bit different to other people. So, I think, yeah, but I think, I think we've always recognised it. But not until I grew up I realised quite the scale of what's been created around me.

Phil:
Right, and the same?

Amy:
Yeah, similar, I think. I think, we've always been roped in from a young age. So, whether that's been, pricing Christmas baubles or going round in a van with dad…

Libby:
Delivery driving.

Amy:
Yeah, delivery driving, I think, we've always, we've been bought up around that environment and that we are quite a hands on business, and I think that's definitely carried on through. And I think for us it’s kind of like, “oh, it's a it's a small family run business” to start with. And I think the last five years, how we've grown, I think it is a pinch yourself moment, because, oh my gosh, like, this is what we are now. And it's quite crazy.

Phil:
You were talking about, growing up in the business, do you think that possibly the fact that you've had intimate, sort of experiences of doing so many different things within the business, you mentioned pricing up baubles, for example? But do you think that's helped you in to where you are now?

Amy:
Yeah, definitely. I think for me, I've been on quite a journey, over the last 7 or 8 years I've been in the business. And I think being able to kind of work in different departments and do a whole varying level of roles, from just being an assistant on the shop floor to becoming, you know, a centre manager, working on the nursery, a whole host. I think it makes you realise like how important everything is. And when you're making a decision, how that can affect so many different people. And I think, you know, there is no better training than being on the ground. And I think we're so lucky that, we've got the opportunity of learning all this different stuff just at our fingertips really.

Phil:
Right. Fantastic. And with regards to the business, you said you got some 70. How many?

Amy:
73.

Phil:
73 stores. My goodness, that's a lot. Do you find that, we've been talking to a few people, talked about the importance of benchmarking. So not just store to store, but departments within the store. Do you find that within British Garden Centres, they're actually benchmarking within, the group as a whole really helps you so identify problems - but also seeing best practice as well. So you can see they're doing really well. Why are they doing quite so well at that.

Amy:
Yeah, definitely. I think it's a big thing that we do and it's a big thing that's become really valuable to us to make help us make decisions. And also understand how we can become a better business. So, yeah, we rank all of our centres in many different ways. So sales, wage percentage, gross profit, etc.. And then we see you look at the comparisons as to why there's differences and sometimes it's explainable and sometimes it's like, oh no, but it definitely makes you think outside the box.

Phil:
Right. And do you benchmark outside of the group as well?

Amy:
Yeah, we do too. We, we look outside, we look at industry figures and see how we're doing compared to that. And yeah, try and understand whether if we're performing better or you know, not as well, then why is that? And what do we need to do or. Yeah, what do we need to carry on do in cases.

Phil:
Yeah. Brilliant.

Kate:
And do you drive around a lot. Are you very hands on. Do you both go and visit… So where is your kind of… What's your region? How far have you got to travel?

Amy:
So, our furthest centre north is Heighley Gate. And our furthest centre south is, Wimborne.

Kate:
Oh, right, so Dorset, yeah.

Amy:
Huge, huge variation. Yeah. So I probably spend about two days a week on the road, visiting. And then three days in the main head office. And you're probably similar aren’t you?

Libby:
Yeah. Similar. Probably a bit more at the minute on the road getting everybody ready for Christmas. But yeah. No, it's a big part. I think it's important for us to see it hands on, because otherwise you don't understand people's real-life problems. It's all just over an email, and people really value seeing and speaking to you in person.

Kate:
And regions are very different, aren't they, as well. You know, customer bases are totally different. Just I mean, for those of us that are involved in the industry, it is it is a different industry than most, isn't it? Are there any, customer moments or kind of centre quirks that would really stick out for, for both of you?

Amy:
Oh, customer moments. I mean, there's quite a few. I mean, there's some, you know, there's some funny ones. And then there's some really lovely ones. And I'll always remember the time where a customer has pulled me to one side on one of our centre openings this year. And, just wanted to basically congratulate how they're so relieved that the centre's been taken over by British Garden Centres, and it looks amazing, and the team's great. And, it was just such a lovely, wholesome complement that I think that’s stuck with me quite a lot because it was it was, you know, it was a busy time for us trying to take them on. And we want to do it well. We wanted the team to flourish, becoming part of us, and we wanted our customers to love that we'd taken over. And I think that was a moment where, yeah, okay, I think we've ticked that box, so…

Phil:
And what about you, anything?

Libby:
Oh, I don't know. There's so many. I don't know. I mean, some of our centres have some crazy quirks as well. One of them has a train. One of them has a big animatronic guy, that we call Mossy. And it's just things like that, that then people in the garden centres and people in the communities, they just keep on coming back because they love to see this stuff. So I think there's all little bits like that.

Phil:
So with all your travelling, you must eat, at all the different garden centres. So then what's your go to thing that you would have if you, if you were having to have lunch on the road?

Libby:
This is probably a bit of an embarrassing one, but mine is the chicken bites.

Phil:
Yeah?

Libby:
I love the chicken bites.

Amy:
They’re so good.

Libby:
I think we've grown up with the chicken bites. And it's one thing that we always say to our restaurant director, you can never take the chicken bites off the menu. I wouldn't eat!

Amy:
And I really enjoy the carvery to be honest, I think that's, yeah, it's as good.

Kate:
So do each… so, although each centre keeps its own individuality when it comes to food, do they all have to kind of have the similar menu?

Amy:
Yeah they have consistency. So, the core menu is the same. But then some centres will have carveries, some centres won’t and then centres get to choose their own specials as well all the time. So, that's what keeps that uniqueness there.

Kate:
We were talking to a guest just before you who, supplies… is food procurement. And one of the things he thought he would like to see is potential for evening openings, using the restaurants and having kind of workshops and wine tasting and cheese tasting. Is that something you think you could potentially kind of… to get people coming to the garden centre and seeing them in different ways, or you're quite happy with 9 to 5?

Amy:
I think it's, a good balance. And I think we're keen to explore opportunities like that, with holding different types of events to bring different types of people in and giving them a different reason to visit.

Libby:
Yeah, we are looking at doing a lot of different events this year. It's sort of something I've taken under my arm, to expand that, through some of our acquisitions, we've noticed that they maybe don't operate quite how all other centres operate. And it's just gaining an understanding of how we can get more people in, whether they're in an area that doesn't have as much green space. So, we're looking at doing more events so that people are still drawn to the garden centre. We're showing people that garden centres aren't just for people with a green, green finger, it's a day out. It's a place to go, a place to make memories.

Phil:
Absolutely. A destination, where you can have experiences.

Amy:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, no, I do think then also it's then just weighing up like, you know, the cost of staying open is it worth it and just looking at the numbers. Really.

Phil:
Yeah. So what are you most excited about for British Garden Centres over the next couple of years?

Amy:
I think I'm, really looking forward to, kind of working with the team and our people to carry on building this fantastic business. I think we are, looking to grow. And that's probably in ways where we're investing in our existing sites, but also potentially looking for new opportunities. But there's just never a dull day. And I think there's always new ideas. And it's just so exciting that I think where we'll get to in two years will be you know, a business that's just, you know, really evolved. Again.

Kate:
You two are pretty, pretty important, visitors to Glee. There's a lot of suppliers out here. What can a supplier do at Glee this week that's going to really impress you? Make you stop. What are you looking for from suppliers here?

Amy:
I think a point of difference. I think, you know, we work with a huge range of suppliers and, you know, they work so well with us and we're really grateful for the relationships we have. And I think, what we've already seen quite a bit of is just something new, some point of difference, something that is going to help us educate our customers as well.
You know, not all our customers are expert gardeners anymore. And I think, you know, what suppliers can do to support us with that, I think is really key.

Phil:
Well I think that's a great way to end it, so, thank you Amy, thank you Libby. Really appreciate you coming in and telling us more about what’s going on at British Garden Centres. It's been fantastic.

Amy:
Thank you for having us.

Libby:
Thank you. Bye bye.

Kate:
So I am here in the GIMA Village and I'm joined by David Howells, who's the owner of Sussex Seed Balls. So, how are you finding Glee this year?

David:
It's been brilliant. My first ever Glee as an attendee or visitor.

Kate:
Oh, really?

David:
And so, yes, it's quite a bit bigger from anything I've done before. And lots of great leads so far. And I've met some really good stallholders as well.

Kate:
So tell us a little bit, I mean, obviously it kind of says that you're Sussex Seed Balls, but tell us a little bit about the seed balls - and obviously you do other products.

David:
Yeah. So we make small batch seed balls for growing wild flowers. We saw a gap in the market, because we focus on seed balls that are chosen for specific soils. So, if you've got the chalk soil or you've got the clay soil you want seed balls that are going to match that, to grow at their best.

Kate:
I love that because you know we forget about that. We get wildflower seeds. But actually if you've got a really heavy wet soil they're not going to do so well. Okay. And how long have you been operating?

David:
Well I started out with a business called Ashes to Blooms because I found a gap in the market, making seed balls with ashes. So that’s spread and we're now in 300 funeral directors with that.

Kate:
Oh, I see. Right, I'm with you now.

David:
So if people suffer a loss they send us the ashes. And then I saw, I wanted to try the gifting market, and so this is my foray into gifting.

Kate:
So what's brought you to Glee?

David:
Well, I just heard great things about it, and we've got, we've got some new, beautifully designed products, and I just felt we've got the range - it was sort of ripe to go into chains and larger stores.

Kate:
And has it gone so far?

David:
Great. Well, the proof will be afterwards when I get those gigantic million-pound orders in! But some really good contacts and had a great GIMA meeting yesterday. So, hoping to get into one of the big chains very soon.

Kate:
So how long have you been a member of GIMA?

David:
Just under a year. I'm a total newbie, and this is my first big GIMA event.

Kate:
Oh, wonderful. Good luck with the rest of the show. And good luck with everything else.

David:
Thank you.

Phil:
We're here with an actual reverend - Reverend Dave Walker from Birley Moor Garden Centre. Hi there. Dave.

Dave:
Hiya Phil. Thank you for having me on the show.

Kate:
Hello, Rev Dave.

Dave:
Yes.

Phil:
So, Dave, perhaps we could start by asking you to, just rewind a little bit back to March 2024. What on earth made you decide to buy a garden centre?

Dave:
Very good question. Well, being a Reverend and Church of England, my stock answer on that is God only knows! But yeah, the background of it is that Birley Moor Garden Centre is in Sheffield and I grew up - I've grown up in Sheffield from birth. When, I was around about five-six years old, I used to go to the garden centre with my dad, and it was a fantastic day out.
In the early ‘70s, before the garden centre, it was a coal mine.

Kate:
Oh my goodness.

Dave:
And it was our playground because we didn't have any playgrounds. Well, the council actually introduced a playground, but it was it was safer to play on the coal mine than it were on the playground.

Kate:
Well that’s not saying much.

Dave:
So, so yeah, from coal mining, early ‘70s, it became a garden centre, round about ‘78.
And I loved that time going into the garden centre with my dad and, it just the memories are great. No Playstations or anything like that, you know, but going over there it was just a great experience. And, there were nothing else, you know, there were no cafes or anything like that. It was a proper garden centre. We went to pick the tomato plants up and the canes for the beans and stuff like that anyway. “Dave, do you want to come?” “Yes, I'll come dad.” And so there is a nostalgia element in there. Some historical reasons for buying it. It came up for sale round about 2023 and I thought, and it has been struggling, I just couldn't let this place just go to rack and ruin.
Now the accountant said. Are you sure? Anyway, I hope that answers your question.

Kate:
So you've described it as a somewhat wild idea? What were those first few weeks really like?

Dave:
Oh, well, so that March 2024. I don’t know if you can cast your mind back to the wettest - one of the wettest springs, followed by a dismal summer. What a time to buy a garden centre. I recall looking up to the sky and saying, God are you…

Kate:
Trying to tell me something!

Dave:
Yeah. What's going on here? So, yes, that first year was very challenging, very difficult. But it was… I like that as well, because I prefer the warts and all at the beginning, you know, I'd prefer not going in first year in. Oh, this is brilliant. Everything's doing as it should, but no, it was total opposite.

Kate:
In at the deep end.

Dave:
In at the deep end is a great metaphor for it.

Phil:
And you've taken, a very different approach to reviving the centre. You've got, Grandpa Joe's street food to forest schools and wellbeing classes. Is there a big idea that sort of be behind all of this that you're doing?

Dave:
There is. So going back to the accountants when they said, look, this is going to be challenging, you know, trying to make money out of a garden centre. We've got to do something different. Now is a thing about footfall. It's about increasing footfall because well that's community engagement and being part of the church, that's what I'm about. So when I speak with Bishop and Bishop's advisors, they said, well, what can we do about community?
And so actually buying the garden centre and doing what we’re doing there, Grandpa Joe's, we've got Hawkstone Lager’s on tap.

Phil:
Oh, okay.

Dave:
Yes.

Phil:
Good old Jeremy Clarkson.

Kate:
We need to go up Phil.

Dave:
Yeah. I tell you what. I am the Jeremy Clarkson of garden centres. I'm sure we'll come on to planning and things like that.

Phil:
Oh, maybe we should do the TV show.

Dave:
There you go. Yeah, absolutely. Great idea. But, yes. So that was it. It's about community engagement. So, bringing in the Forest School. We've got an education arm as well. So, it's a forest school doing horticultural land waste management and so on.

Kate
Oh, I love that. Yeah, I'm a forest school practitioner. Well, I'm certified, I haven't done it for a while, but. Yes. Brilliant. Kids love it.

Dave:
Yeah, absolutely. We've got kids coming in now. And one of the biggest challenges is, it's having the space as well for them. You know, we're oversubscribed already.
Which is good.

Phil:
Yeah, absolutely.

Kate:
Is your vision about returning to a more old school purpose or creating something completely new?

Dave:
It's a mix. So as, we started out, I explained about growing up at five, six years old. That was brilliant. You know, no technology, no gadgets. Just got traditional garden centre stuff. So, yeah, let's bring that. Now, I'm not naive enough to know that we've also got to move with the times. So, you know, let's get that technology coming in, but I don't want it to become, some, theme park, you know, I want it to become a destination of people coming and actually meeting people.
Today we have the Help for Heroes descend on Grandpa Joe's and things on that. So, yeah, they're coming together. So, it's that community engagement.

Phil:
So would you say it's more about the community engagement or is it more about building the garden centre back up to its former glory, but even more so?

Dave:
Yeah. And again, they both work in parallel. So, we've got to build the garden centre up. It's got to get to a certain mass so it can actually pay its bills. And we’re not strapped with cash flow and stuff like that, which is what a lot… and Birley Moor Garden Centre, you know, it's still got a cash flow issue, what we have to balance and make sure we get that right.
So yes, we've got to grow it. There's no two ways about it. But to actually support that it’s that community engagement. And that's what I'm all about.

Kate:
But that's a win-win isn't it? A win for the business. It's a win for the community.

Dave:
It is. Yeah. And when people come up to me and say thank you, it's like, you know, I cry, but it's it brings tears to my eyes.

Kate:
I bet. No, no.

Dave:
Honestly, it does, it brings tears to my eyes.

Kate:
Well you’ve got that emotional connection haven't you as well, from being a youngster going there. Oh that's lovely.

Phil:
Yeah. We were talking to somebody yesterday morning Paul Playdell from Playdell Smithyman and they’re a consultant, really around garden centres and trying to encourage or help garden centres to maximise their footfall and profits and, and what have you, and he basically said it comes down to three things and that's: experience, experience, experience. And yeah. So, I think you're onto something in what you're trying to do.

Dave:
Good. And thanks for the reassurance.

Kate:
And he also talked a lot about community, about bringing the community together didn't he?

Phil:
He did. He really did. So, what have customers and locals made of it all so far?

Dave:
Yeah. Well, I'm pleased to say one of the things what really satisfies me, it might sound odd, but I go in and walk around the garden centre, sometimes I'm wearing the dog collar, sometimes I'm not. People actually come up to me and shake my hand and actually thank me. They say, thank you Dave, for doing what you're doing here. It's great. We haven't had this for a long time. It needed bringing forward. So, that’s really… it goes to my heart. I think it's fantastic that people do that. And I'm very fortunate that I get that feedback.

Kate:
And people are coming?

Dave:
Yeah, footfalls increasing. Footfall’s increasing, so, that's good.

Kate:
So that's the positive. Let's just have a little chat about some of the challenges you've been through. And well, you've been in the trenches with the planning officers and Greenbelt policy. So how tough has that side of it all been?

Dave:
Extremely tough. And it still is. It's still ongoing. So, we've got a bungalow on site - residential bungalow - and we're looking at change of use of the bungalow, into the cafe.

Kate:
Okay.

Dave:
Yeah. We've got Grandpa Joe's as the outlet, but we need a cafe.

Kate:
So was there no cafe before?

Dave:
No. The previous owners, it was their residential home.
I did speak to them before actually putting in planning to say, I’m going to turn your home into a cafe. They were over the moon. They loved the idea.
But, for 15 months, we've been in planning process for 15 months. Yeah, we're in a sliver of greenbelt. To the left of us is an industrial - a small industrial area, not greenbelt. To the right of us there's a fire station. Not greenbelt. Well, it just so happens that we’re in the greenbelt. With what I said used to be a coal mine.

Kate:
Yes. Of course. Oh my goodness. Right.

Dave:
So fingers crossed. Our planning, consultants and all the other consultants who’ve all been working on this project, are reassuring me that after 15 months now, the actual final plans went in 13 weeks ago. And so we're right at that last level now. So, I'd like to think I'll drop you an email next week to say we've finally gotten the planning through.

Kate:
So will that be the end to Grandpa Joe or will you keep that going?

Dave:
Well, interesting, because the first reiteration that the council suggested that we had to sort of close that area down. Because one of the things in, planning in Greenbelt is if you've got two cafes on site is classed as being greedy.

Kate:
Really? Right, okay.

Dave:
Which I found very bizarre and bonkers. So anyway, we pushed back and the reason why we pushed back is because the customers love Grandpa Joe’s. So Grandpa Joe's, I’m pleased to say is in the plans. And it will continue to grow and grow as it is.

Phil:
Can you describe that to us? In fact, can you just describe some of the garden centre to us just so we can paint picture.

Dave:
All right. Yeah, let's try that. So, we've got the standard greenhouse. So, the standard greenhouse is, as you'd expect is a garden centre. Just behind the greenhouse is the plant… outside plant areas. To the left of the greenhouse and attached is the aquatics. So, we've got an aquatic outlet as well. And then up behind the outside plant area is where the bungalow is. That’s sat in one acre of land.

Phil:
Okay, so it's not small.

Dave:
We've got seven and a half acres altogether.

Kate:
Oh, gosh. That's huge.

Dave:
Yeah. So it's a nice, nice site. We got three and a half acres which the garden centre sits in. Like I say, one acre of that is the bungalow and that garden land. And that's where the forest School is. And then it's got a woodland, sort of enclosing it. And then to the right, we've got scrubland, three and a half acres of scrubland, which the ecologist class as rank. I never even knew that was a term. But apparently it is. Now, the good thing about that it's rank is we're looking at Biodiversity Net Gain. So, we're turning that into a nature reserve. And we'll be putting a wetland in there. Adjacent to that is the Birley Wood Golf Course, which floods at the wet times of the year. So if we take all that water in from there, bring it into the wetland, we can stop that from flooding. We increase the biodiversity of the site. So there's a lot going on there.

Kate:
That’s amazing.

Phil:
Yeah. Obviously with your previous hat on, that's sort of an area which you know quite well.

Dave:
Yeah, absolutely.

Phil:
So just tell us a little bit - because this was from a chat before we started recording. So just tell us a little bit about your background there.

Dave:
So, my background I've been in the water industry, for quite a number of years. We have probably started out in ‘89 and I've had a number of companies in the water industry. Well, I've bought and sold and my initial, training was electronics engineer. So in 2008, I was on a plane into Australia. I was buying product in from Australia and bringing it into the UK, and the exchange rate was great. So I was doing very well. But it needed a particular certification. So, the guys in Australia said, come over and see us and we'll get this thing sorted. I landed in Australia on the Sunday, on the Monday, went into the meeting and they said to me, “we can't do this.”
I thought - I've just flown all the way around the world, and this is before I became a priest in the church of England. So, I'm now leaving, because I would only there for three days. I've got a job in Scotland to get to on Wednesday. And I don't recommend that. I'm not bragging. You know, you don't go to Australia for three days. It's madness.

Kate:
No.

Dave:
But I then, I was flying into Heathrow above the clouds and I thought, well, like I say, I wasn’t a priest or anything like that. But I thought, if there is a God, I must be very close to him now, because I'm above the clouds. So, I looked out of the window on the plane and said, God, you better give me some inspiration, because I've just, I've had enough and I had lost a big contract as well because of this.
So, I was very down on I know, I know when I'm going to fall. Well, actually, why don't I build my… make my own instrument, my own flow monitor. So, I did. We set up a company. There was five of us to start. The company now, I think we've got 180 people employed.
Kate:
Wow. Yeah.

Dave:
And, yeah, they’re exhibiting actually next door, at the environment conference.
And I'm in there tomorrow doing a talk on that nature-based solutions. And so, yes, that's my background of what I did before.

Kate:
You’ve got a good business head on you.

Dave:
I'd like to think so. Yes. And I've been able to bring that into the garden centre. Yeah.

Phil:
Right. So Birley Moor was on the brink back in 2023. And now you've seen a 43% rise in turnover with the cafe not even open yet. So, what do you put that down to?

Dave:
Okay. Well first of all we've got to remember that we've had a good spring and a good summer. So some of that is down to the climate. But good. 25 - 30% of that is actually down to the increase in footfall, getting some new products in, and changing everything. Bit don't get me wrong, we've spent a lot of money into the infrastructure of the building.
Put a new roof on it straight away.

Kate:
Oh gosh. right. Yeah.

Phil:
That’s not cheap.

Dave:
Yeah, that’s not cheap. So, yes, getting new products in. We've got, we never had a gift section, so we've got a great range of gifts now. So that's what's happened.

Phil:
Have you and you or your son got a background in retail at all?

Dave:
No, no we haven't.

Phil:
So this is some learning curve that you're on.

Dave:
It is one of the things I am blessed with is, I do speak to, some of the local garden centres, I made friends with them. And said, how do I do this?
Kate:
Help.

Dave:
Yeah. Help, that's it. Yeah.

Kate:
And you’ve funded this with your own savings.

Dave:
I have, yeah.

Kate:
So, there's obviously negative and positive, but have you found that this has given you freedom to kind of take more risks?

Dave
Well, obviously, yes, because I'm not having to battle with the banks. But, you know, banks are, a good in a respect because they give you the… you've got to put a business case forward, you know, you've got to demonstrate that you're going to be able to return the money. So that is good.
Yes. Fortunately, I've got the money to invest, to actually invest in infrastructure. Now, as much as I say that, that, you know, I have free reign. Well, I haven’t because I’ve got my…

Kate:
Your son.

Dave:
No, it's not my son. It's my wife. She she's got this knack of saying, do we really need to do that at the moment? What's the cash flow like? How's that going to look? How's that going to…

Kate:
Sensible, sensible woman.

Dave:
Yeah. So, she she's great at just reining his back in. But yeah, that's how it works. But yes, I've been very fortunate that we haven't had to bring in any, finance from banks and investors at this moment in time.

Phil:
Have you looked at, the Garden Centre Association at all?

Dave:
No, but I know you mentioned that to me. And so again, my ignorance. I've only been here a year.

Kate:
Yes, I know, that’s true.

Dave:
But I think. Yeah. And I think you mentioned that you might be able to give me an introduction.

Phil:
I can definitely to Peter Burke's. He's actually coming on the podcast tomorrow.

Dave:
Oh brilliant.

Phil:
And we spoke to him only a few minutes ago didn’t we?

Kate:
Yeah, a great guy.

Phil:
So we can definitely give you an introduction there.

Dave:
That I really welcome that. Thank you very much.

Phil:
Yeah. So, you've said that you want to tell this story to support other small independents. What's the message that you most want to share? Do you think?

Dave:
Okay, so I think we've got to be realistic about this, for independent garden centres. it's tough.
And even now, because we seem to be in a financial climate at the moment where the spending is dropping. So the economy… So that's hard. It's hitting us and I look at now other retailers, even some of the top retailers, you know, if I can mention Marks and Spencers and stuff like that, I look at them very closely to see how they’re going, and people are sort of thinking twice about spending.
So, my message to, independents is hold in their, batten down the hatches. Yeah. Try and get the stock levels right. Because that's one of the things what we seen, which was it’s trying to get it right. And it's like, how much stock do you carry, how much stock. You know, you got to carry the stock or you just got an empty shop window haven’t you?

Kate:
Yeah.

Phil:
Yeah. So you need to find suppliers who can who are prepared to help you do deals and that sort of thing.

Dave:
Exactly. And that's one of the things I want. And that's why I've been here today. I've been talking to the suppliers saying, how can you help us? How can you help us with extended credit terms. How can you help us with just Point of Sale? You know, that type of stuff. You know, and the marketing and things like that.

Kate:
So I know it's only been just over a year, but what is next for Birley Moor? I mean, have you been looking at the food suppliers here, at Glee with the eye for opening your own cafe?

Dave:
Absolutely. So, I've got the team down here today, and they’re all walking around. So I have my wife Andrea and Mel who’s the chief operating officer. It was the best title we could think of, because she's in charge. So, and the director of the garden centre now, they're all walking around and looking at these… at the food outlets and what we can, can bring in.

Kate:
So what's your son's title?

Dave:
So William is a director as I am. Well, just an investor, well, owner. So we're both down as co-owners.

Phil:
So how hands on are you and your son?

Dave:
Well, actually, William now works there. And, so he's very much hands on. I'm there with the community engagement. So, I just go in and meet people and talk about plants and and compost - I'm learning a lot about peat free compost and stuff like that.

Kate:
Ooh yes, talk to me.

Phil:
Kate is the Compost Queen.

Dave:
Be careful of all that potassium.

Kate
Oh, yes. Yeah. We just been talking about that. Yeah.

Dave
So, that's what I'm. Yeah. It's one thing I wanted to mention I, I forgot mention it earlier on, when I took over the garden centre we've got four people employed. We've now got 28.

Kate:
Oh goodness.

Dave:
In the year.

Kate:
That is amazing.

Dave:
So yeah.

Phil:
And you attribute that to the fact that you've just got these grand plans or, and the footfalls increasing or…

Dave:
It is it again both of that. It’s footfalls increasing. We have got the grand plans. Yeah. But we're not going to be a Blue Diamond so we don't ever want to be. Yeah. You know, but I do respect the, you know, Blue Diamond. How, Alan Roper has taken that from 7 million to where he's at.

Phil & Kate
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave:
I don't think I'm ever going to do that with Birley Moor Garden Centre, but, the model is like, wow, well done. Alan.

Phil:
Know your customer, that's his big thing.

Dave:
Know your customer.

Kate:
Yeah, exactly.

Dave:
And that's very important because we see that customer different price breaks, you know, some things, you know, it's like, oh, it's going to be X pounds and it's like our customers are going to pay for that or whatever. So knowing the customer.

Kate:
Yes, absolutely.

Phil:
Well, Reverend Dave, I just want to say thank you so much for coming in and talking to us and giving us more of an insight into the Birley Moor story that you've been sharing with us, it’s been fantastic.

Kate:
And just loads of luck for the future.

Dave:
Thank you very much Phil and Kate and thank you very much more for inviting me on.

Phil:
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The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.