Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now. As well as recording 20 interviews, Kate and I ventured out of our recording booth to gain some insights from exhibitors on the show floor.
If you’ve been working in the garden sector for a while, you no doubt already know how special it is. The support from trade associations, colleagues and peers across the industry can be invaluable. In this episode we catch up with Nat Boynton and Meg Warren-Davis from the YPHA as the industry celebrates the culmination of the Lauch Success Challenge and we hear what initiative they have coming next. We also chat with Kaz Edwards of Heart of Eden about the support she received earlier this year.

We are here this morning with Natalie Boynton and Megan Warren-Davis. Thank you very much both for you, for joining us. You're both members of the YPHA. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you both on.

Nat:
Thank you very much for having us.

Phil:
You both been on before. So, friends of the show, which is great. What are you both hoping to take away from Glee this year?

Nat:
We're here today with a really important purpose, really, which is, to graduate our ten delegates from our Launch Success Challenge. It's really exciting to have such a platform to do that. And to celebrate their success and the success, hopefully, of the program. So, I think that's the main thing for us today is, is to help more people find out what we've been doing and celebrate what has been achieved.
Because it's been it's been a real journey. And this was always sort of the line in the sand of where we would, which would finish it up. So, I think it's nice to get to that finish line.

Meg:
Yes, definitely. To see that progress has been amazing over the year, over a year that they've been working on this project and just see the final pieces come together and see the development of everyone's journeys and creating new products has been amazing.

Kate:
Well, let's talk a little bit about the Launch Success Challenge. So, we had Beth Anderson, on the podcast, and she told us all about the experience from a delegates point of view. But what was your vision, for the programmewhen you first created it?

Nat:
So, the YPHA, when we started the YPHA coming up six years ago now, one of the things that Molly, Liam and I all felt was that the industry is very good at finding people that like plants and teaching them more about plants. But in the meantime, and you guys all know this really well, there's so many other things that are integral to what we do and are a huge obstacle to making the progress the industry needs to make that we're just expected to figure out for ourselves.
So, we sort of grouped those into little pockets, and this project came about as a way to combat quite a lot of them. To light a fire and raise awareness of these things that we weren't teaching people: photography, fonts… You know, we had a whole half day session with, with Jennie Kwan from Hyve part of the Glee family, um, parent of the Glee trade show. And about like: if you use a sans serif font versus a serif font and, and, you know, we went into a lot of detail very quickly on a lot of things, but touched a lot of bases in the hope that people can figure out which bits they thrived at. And then hopefully open their minds to horticulture’s not just dirt under the nails. It might be how to frame a photograph, it might be how to write a press release. So, we made them write a lot of press releases. But you know, those things like when you're launching a product: write your own press release.

Phil:
Really valuable skills.

Nat:
So, it was sort of a way to link that together into something that was it was fun as well. Sort of an apprentice style approach, I guess, to launching the product. And thanks to the support, especially from BALI, we were able to bring Meg on the journey with us. And Meg has been documenting it.

Kate:
When you say the help from Bali, you’re not talking about the country here?

Nat:
No the British Association of Landscape Institute it’s the trade association for landscapers. When we first said that we would, we're going on this journey, and we'd had sponsorship for the delegates. I said, I just really wish that we could be taking more on them. And Wayne, who is an absolute hero for YPHA, from Bali, said, that he would help contribute the funds to add Meg’s name to the list of people. So Meg's been on every step of the journey with us filming every minute.

Phil:
So, tell us what that experience was like Meg?

Meg:
Oh it's amazing. I'm so, so grateful that I've been able to come through on this journey because I've learnt so much, even just by watching all of the delegates go through this process. So, I've had experience in all of these rooms, like going to FloraMedia and seeing about branding, how that's helped me in my own career.
And then in the terms of like the documenting, learning more about editing and videography and really developing those skills as well. But yeah, just to see the transformation, on camera, those initial interviews with the delegates, all the way to the BBC Gardeners World Live, where it was launched, has been, you know, it's amazing to see the before and afters. You put the footage side by side and it's amazing how far they've come. And I'm just so grateful that I've been able to be part of that journey.

Kate:
So, your role in your day to day job, social media, is that right? Is that still there or…

Meg:
I do my own social media around houseplants. Yes. So, I do. You make, videos around that, they tend to be more short form, but this is more of a documentary style. And then I do work in marketing as my day job. So, it like kind of congeals everything together.

Kate:
Amazing.

Phil:
And you, you able to get the time off to do the things that you needed to do?

Meg:
Yeah. So, I'm hugely grateful for my previous workplaces. They've been able to grant me some time off to, to go and support the YPHA and, being really flexible with the time off.

Phil:
Yeah. Because that's a really big thing. You know, you can't do it without the support of the people, the employers, so, that’s really good to hear. It was a big step to take to, run the Launch Success program. What was it that encouraged you to take such a bold, real world approach to the program?

Meg:
So, when we first wanted to do YPHA, back before we actually did it, we asked one of the big industry organisations if they could take it under their remit, and they said it wasn't a priority. And then I think that lit a fire that young people should be a priority. And, again, we appealed. And Lily Matthews and I wrote out a detailed proposal for what was the first version of Launch Success. And we applied for funding from a well-resourced industry body. And, they said it didn't align with their priorities. So, we took a step back. We'd already worked out for that programme how much it was going to cost, how much money we'd need. And it felt insurmountable. And then, Boyd being Boyd - gosh, that guy, the things we all allow that guy for the guidance he's given us in our careers said, well, you just put out an article saying that, you know, you're looking for funding and, yeah, one of the first phone call we got back from, you know, we want to do this project, but we need to raise this money, was Peter Moore, a Choisya breeder from Hillier Heritage. And, he said I'll be your main sponsor. And put up a good chunk of the funding.

Phil:
That’s so amazing.

Nat:
I cried. I was so emotional because so many people hadn't thought that it was worth it. Well, one group of people, having thought it was worth supporting. Or it didn't align with their priorities. Whatever. So, and then once Peter signed on, and we had that sort of bulk, we knew that through the project, we would be able to generate some funds, because there's a rebate on the sales of the item as a condition of signing with the partner.
So, BGC this time gave a sort of a surcharge on each item which has come back. So, we knew at that point that we were going to get a chunk back at the end. So, Molly said right. Well worst case we self-fund and at the end that money regenerates what we’ve used on the way through. But it wasn't necessary.

Kate:
Didn't need to do that.

Nat:
No, so there are some brilliant bodies. I'm really scared to try to name them because I mean somebody. But the BPOA’s up there, Berkenkamp themselves, Floramedia were a big part of it. You know, Westland, put in a good chunk. Again, the GCA sponsored, mini bus around the Netherlands. It was it was piecemeal, but every little vote of confidence, it's just made it. I was so determined that we needed to do this project. Because we've lit a fire into ten people. But once Meg’s had 1,000 hours to edit all the documentary footage together hopefully we'll be able to amplify it further.
But we've drawn attention to the fact that, those are underappreciated areas. And then as it happens, because we had the funds up front, the funds that have come back at the end of the project is what we've rolled on and put together this management training. So, the project sort of, not only supported the ten in it and all of the people that see Meg’s documentary, but also is now putting another 12 through a different version of “let's not teach people more about plants”.

Kate:
So, when are you hoping the documentary will be, ready?

Phil:
No pressure honestly, I understand that pressure.

Meg:
Yeah. Understand all the editing process, I think, I did I created a five-minute, onboarding video, not for YPHA, but for, for another project, and that took me 12 hours to do so. That was five minutes. It depends like how high quality - and I really, really want this to be one of the best pieces of video that I've put together because it really needs to be amplified and give as an example to maybe, hopefully future iterations of the Launch Success Challenge of what can be achieved and why, people in the industry should support it.

Kate:
So, going back to the actual the program, what has surprised or impressed you the most about the two final concepts?

Nat:
Oh, the concepts themselves? Yeah. I mean, what we intended to do was to remove all these limitations, and you guys have all experienced them, of that's not how we do things. You know, we tried that in 1974 and it didn't work. And you’re just like: yeah, the world's changed since then. Even in the last five years, you know, the approach to, attracting new customers is so different.
And I think the, the group whose concept was most of what went to market, where they came up with this front back label. We've had this indoor outdoor thing for a while where we know that the plant could be used in either, and I thought that was a real connection. That you've got a front and a back and you can just swap it.
Yeah. I thought that was really cool. But the other team went on this whole colour journey where they worked out, they knew they wanted the plant to express gratitude, and they worked out what the colour palette for gratitude was. And that was incredible. But, Meg mentioned it before, but the progress from them… There's a young girl called Molly Parkin. Who that first coach trip. She wasn't feeling so well. So, we should give her that. But she was, a little, you know… She was 20, you know, quite quiet in the corner, looking a little bit terrified. She spoke at Chelsea this year, about careers. You know, she's come on that much.
And I think, as much as the product that hit the shelves, the product - I don't want to call them products - the product of success is what you'll see on the stage, this afternoon, because there's been babies born, house-moves, you know, life has happened. I don't think there's one of them up there that you couldn't say is a different person to who we brought onto the program.

Phil:
So, the programme itself gave a platform for, those people taking part to share their voice and their ideas. And what do you think that actually says about the future of, horticulture and young people in it?

Meg:
The future's bright. The future’s bright with the young people. And I just loved how creative these delegates were and how that kind of represents a lot of young people coming up in the industry that maybe being stifled in their own workplaces by “that's just how we've always done it” or, you know, “this is just the way it is.”
And they're not given that movement to grow and to express their creativity. And what we've seen is that when they're given that opportunity, they can produce something amazing, and they can produce something so detailed and deep and really well thought out and come up with different strategies and stuff.

Nat:
I think, one of the most tangible moments for me where I thought that’s magic, we were at the breeding facility at Berkenkamp, we were actually the last people to ever see it, because they banned people seeing it. But we had booked our flights. So, Andy Abby, bless him from Berkenkamp, put up quite a fight that we should be able to see it. And it's all, tinted glass. And even if you work at Berkenkamp, but not on that team or you're on the Dahlia team, you can't see the begonia breeding?

Phil:
So, it's completely top secret. That's great.

Nat:
There is a really cool breeder over there. And we were chatting to him, and he was saying about… he gets really frustrated, because somebody said they wanted an orange begonia, and it took him five years to breed, by which point they didn't want an orange begonia anymore. We've got a lot of career changers on the programme.
Grace works as a model in fashion. Beth used to be a makeup artist to the stars. Like some real…

Kate:
She didn't tell us that!

Nat:
Oh, she. She's done the faces of some people that she's not allowed to tell you, she's done the faces of. But, Chloe used to be a primary school teacher. You know, Leith is from recruitment, but the fashion side of things was especially cool because they have a similar problem that if they want to make 2 million pairs of flairs for 2027, they've had to already decide that.
So, then what they do is they, subliminally add them, so someone on Coronation Street shows up in flairs and someone in Vogue is photographed in flairs, and they twist the market to what they've already committed to creating for them. And I don't know how to do that, but I want to do that.

Phil:
Yeah, that's really interesting.

Kate:
That’s sneaky.

Nat:
So, you know that you've got, I don't know what it is. We brought a trailing lavender out last year, and I spent months trying to come up with a marketing campaign for It Smells, and it's by your nose. It smells so good. You know, if you know that you've got that cool thing, coming and you can manipulate the market, in preparation for that cool thing coming. And we should be looking at these other industries. We have been so insular and not just insular as an industry, but we've been so private as our own businesses, and a lot of the time we need to be working collectively as brand horticulture and brand horticulture needs to be looking at fashion and social media and, you know…

Phil:
Just taking elements from all different industries and things. It's interesting. We were talking to Lee Connolly and Michael Perry, both very creative people, and they both were talking about how they were doing things. And then they took that idea from here and that went from there and put it together. And I think it's the same thing. I think being able… creativity is that idea of being able to say two disparate elements and merge them together into something new.

Nat:
I think the GCA have been good at it for a while. And I think like when obviously Liam, who's our co-founder, goes on a lot of the GCA and IGCA trips and they go and look at scented candle factories and all sorts of things. But yeah, well, knitting I always think we could take a lot of examples from how knitting has been popularised - in yarn bombing.
You know, those sorts of things. And open your mind a little bit. Is our main rallying cry.

Phil:
Yeah. On the GCA conference last year or earlier this year, I think it was, they went they actually did a tour around, different retailers, to look at the way that different things are merchandised, you know, visual merchandising and just seeing how different department stores in fashion places, not at garden centres, but, you know, just being able to absorb that and then take that back and go, oh, we could do that.

Nat:
Yeah.

Kate:
But I think we've been saying the podcast that the garden industry is no longer just about gardening. It's about so much more. You just walk around here. There's nothing to do with plants. A lot of the stands, so, you know, it's a no brainer that we take all that on board.

Nat:
Definitely, it's going to be a more cohesive unit if you plan to merchandise in a similar way to your fashion. And we did a visual merchandising session as part of the programme, and then the week after it was a costing session. And, you know, we flip them around and you saw like, Liv Absolutely - Olivia Blackburn, who's now got a job as a buyer at British Garden Centres - But she's a strategic, analytical, data driven person. And then you get the likes of Grace where you put her in front of a camera, and she was just a different person. And it's I think that's what we've tried to do is take them on a tour and see which bits lit up each person. And I hope that that they've taken that from the programme, which bits they thrived on and the bits where they should look to the place themselves.

Phil:
Oh, that's really inspiring.

Kate:
So, you've mentioned this earlier, but off the back of the Launch Success Challenge, you've now introduced a management development programme. What led you to create these next steps?

Nat:
I think it's been in the queue for as long as long as launch success. But there's a heck of an undertaking, to put together and very early on in the YPHA journey, we were introduced to Lindsay Muir, from Cedar Associates, who is just one of the most respected trainers in the industry. And everybody you speak to the likes of Will Armitage who walked by before and Boyd, all the people that… Adam Dunnett, right at the top of their game. If you speak to them somewhere along the way? Lindsay put them in their place, or shown them what they're capable of. So we knew we wanted to do it. We knew we wanted to do it. Lindsay.
We've got our own challenges to turn YPHA into something that outlasts us. And, we felt that we almost needed succession planning for ourselves as a group of friends, really. And then the idea came about that we could use, the funds that came back from Launch Success, which is really cool. So, half the cost of the programme has come back. And then Colegrave Seabrook. We've been looking for a way to work with them for a very long time. Nothing really fit. And then I was at the Hillier conference, back at the start of the year and I was, sat next to Adam Dunnett and I hadn't met him before. So, we looked around everybody that we had in common and came to Lindsay, and I said, I really want to do a programme where Lindsay's, you know, leading the show and showing us how to do this.
And he said, well, I'll put it to CSF that you should fund it. So, they've put in a quarter and then everybody's employer has made a quarter of the original cost, but they've also had to commit nine days of, of leave behind that person to attend and travel costs.

Phil:
So, once again, you know, it's the businesses prepared…

Kate:
They’re stepping up.

Phil:
…to help and share in that way as well.

Meg:
When you invest in your own staff, you get a lot more in return. I think that's something that they see the initial cost of it and they're like, oh my. But when they do do that, they get people that stay, they get people wanting to work there. They get, you know, the cost of recruitment is so much. And then just giving these people opportunities that they might not get in other places.

Kate:
And you got that that member of staff is hopefully going to stay and just progress through.

Nat:
If they don't stay, then the rising tide lifts all the boats. You know, as an industry, again, it's important, that we can't keep having an industry where the big powers that be the big businesses have to pull strategists out of Pets at Home or, you know, we have to have people that like and care about plants and want to advocate for the integrity of the horticultural side of the industry, but also understand strategy and game planning.

Kate:
I like that you said that because there's so many managers that have come from fast moving… what is it?

Phil:
FMCG.

Kate:
FMCG, yeah, I mean it's plants. It is different.

Nat:
Yeah. We've been we've been intentional with the we put 12 places, and we did it that six could be committee. Obviously, a lot of work has gone into the organisation. So, that was sort of prioritised at six would be for committee but six for wider membership. We've ended up with seven from wider membership with a committee drop out.
But there were places we've chosen from wider membership as well. We've been intentional in choosing and prioritising people that wouldn't be able to access that training. My business, we've got 50ish team, but we'd never have 12 managers that we could put through to make a course. So, I think that’s our main request for the industry is we need to work together and piecemeal training, because having somebody from a different context on the course will be more valuable than having 11 of you that have the same anecdote.
You know, I can apply that to the time that so-and-so did this, but they've got a version myself and so did… So, there are businesses on there, there’s three grower retailer nurseries where the second generation or third generation trying to take over from the parents. With similar problems to tackle.

Phil:
So, what would you say to an employer who's on the fence about investing in this opportunity or maybe, some something else, other type of training. for a young person within that team.

Meg:
I think it's always best to invest - that rhymes!

Kate:
Strap line!

Meg:
Yeah. Strap line.
You know, this is going to build up your own team and ultimately be valuable for you, but also for that individual, like we said previously, there's the amount that it costs is small in terms of the long run. And even if that's not in your company and that's in another company, you're building up the industry. And I think that's what's so important about that. If they're worried about costs, I'm sure that they can…

Nat:
We have we have bursary, we have bursaries advice within the YPHA. You know, thanks to Paul Coulings in particular, we have we have a little bit of funds to cover travel costs, and things. I think what's Megs alluded to.

Phil:
No that's excellent. Yeah. No. Brilliant. Best to invest - I like it.

Nat:
Best to invest.

Kate:
So, are there any upcoming projects events or partnerships you can tease for use?

Nat:
So, I think we already I spoke about actually at National Planning Show. So, it's more of an update rather than a teaser. But we're working on a winter programme with Barclays, which are really excited about that. Again, similar topic, lateral skills. The launch success challenge was originally the Lateral Skills Challenge was it's working title.
LSC came from both, although at one point, one of the delegates called it the Lose Sleep Challenge because we made them get up early so many times. But yeah. So, the Barclays programme's in a similar vein. How to present yourself for an interview, how to write a business plan, how to read a balance sheet, the amount of times I've sat in a boardroom and been told about EBITDA and I'm like: I listened at school, you know, I mean, I don't know where I was supposed to learn about EBITDA, I don't know.

Kate:
They don’t teach you that at school.

Nat:
We are stifling the progress by just sticking to teach more about plants. Again, in that vein, we've got a big obstacle coming up, in that we need to work towards charity status. And that's going to take a lot of time and energy. I have a really good product and a really good route to market for Launch Success Two.
I just don't know that I have the operational capacity to be the glue. So, if anybody's listening and thinks, oh I could, you know, deal with any part of it raising sponsorships, interviewing people, arranging training rooms, arranging trainers, making sure everyone's trains arrive within an hour of each other or planes arrive, you know.

Kate:
A shout out for someone.

Phil:
Logistics are a nightmare.

Nat:
But yeah. So, I think, it would be a real shame to let the product and the route to market, sit on a shelf with. But I'm just there like, I don't know if I can do this. I've used a lot of my goodwill at my own business, and, you know, and a lot of annual leave, to get this together. And hopefully, something will come together and somebody will say, oh, no, I'll, I'll do it.

Kate:
I'll take this on.

Nat:
Yeah. Because Launch Success two would be really cool.

Phil:
It would be.

Nat:
It's a similar spin on the same sort of concept, but with like I say, a really cool product and a really cool route to market. So…

Phil:
Sounds exciting. So, brilliant news, the YPHA now has over a thousand members. So, what are some of the conversations and themes emerging from within the community right now?

Meg:
So, the changing of trends and like how people are buying and purchasing plants is really, really changing. And we can see that, on the discord people decide to talk about it. And what is the future of buying and selling? One of the things is TikTok Shop. So, we've got especially in the house plant space, you can see a lot of, sellers like, Urban Tropicana. They've, launched their TikTok shop and they're on TikTok live a lot of days out throughout the week. And you can like, watch a video. They can present the plant, they can package the plant in live, and you can comment live and you can buy plants as they're doing it. And sometimes they can come up on the screen.
Some shops have that function where they can literally say, so-and-so has purchased this plant and it creates that, it's like QVC on your phone.

Phil:
Yeah, I was thinking that.

Meg:
But constant, and you know, you can do thousands and thousands of sales that way because you can reach a massive audience across the UK. There are obviously the different things with, with TikTok you've got to be aware of, such as the TikTok rules and the community guidelines and things, and to just be aware of that, that they have their own rules and at the moment they favour the buyer.
So, there can be issues when it comes to, lots of chargebacks, accidental and things, so that's really something to remind them.

Phil:
Yeah. Needs researching.

Meg:
Yeah, it needs researching, but there's this movement towards technology and towards social media using that as creating your own market for your products, which is so important, I think, and what the houseplant community has done so well since 2020, they come up with this random plant that no one has really heard of. So, there's one called magic eight ball. It's got a name change and it's a Monstera, that's from Australia. And you know, you never think, oh yeah I really, really want that new interesting monstera called Magic Eight Ball. And they've marketed it in a way that everyone wants it. And there's a waiting list for it. And now they've got a European supplier. They've got suppliers in the Americas.
And loads of people really want it. And so there's going to be queues for it maybe when it does launch, like when the Thai Constellation did launch in America.

Nat:
So, but the, the speaker here at the moment, actually, Ginnie, who’s from TikTok, and I heard her speak yesterday and she was saying that this creates a halo effect as well, where the same product, because they've seen it in TikTok, on TikTok. God, I'm not the right person for TikTok, but they then will drive to a store to buy it as well. So, not only she's basically saying you're not diluting your customer base, they're not saying I was going to drive to the garden centre, but I'll go on TikTok shop. This is a customer that you're getting as well. And quite often the incentive is there because they've seen on TikTok and it's like the labels - plant labels do my head in to be honest – I went a bit northern then didn’t I? Sorry - the plant labels are like Too Long Didn't Read on every label I've ever seen and TikTok you can get almost like a demonstration and a pitfall and a pro.

Phil:
Because you don’t need to read it.

Nat:
Yeah. What solution it offers to the problem that you've got, or how it would fit in your room where you put it. You know… So, it's like a TLDR on a label for a customer that wasn't going to come into a garden centre anyway.

Meg:
You are also reaching that that young audience, just like, as you said, they might not go to the garden centre, or might not visit there. You're reaching such a much younger audience that actually all those people that you didn't have necessarily going to your garden centre before or your nursery, they're now experiencing your product and why they should buy your product.

Phil:
Yeah. So, that's interesting because I've heard that there's… although young people are getting into houseplants, which is great, they're not necessarily coming into garden centres. So, what is it, what's stopping them? And is there something that we can be doing, or the industry could be doing to help encourage young people to come and visit garden centres?

Nat:
I think we're getting pockets of them. Jelly Cat collectors, scented candle fans. Yeah. I always say when we look at product design with happy plants is what's the thing that's going to distract somebody that was going to buy a coffee and suddenly was compelled to buy this plant? And what's the wow. And I've said for a long time that the customers we've got out of Covid, they're either plant parents who are houseplant folk.
We're not really going to persuade them to plant out beds of annuals or they’re garden decorators, people that, you know, probably painted their garden grey in Covid and had scatter cushions in the garden, and they took the Mrs. Hinch principle of what she does in the house. They didn't know how to garden so they just Mrs. Hinch’d the garden.
We've kind of worked on graduating them into people who have, you know, where there's a product for them. But yeah, we, we get coffee fans, we get Jelly Cat fans. You know, there are pockets. And it's making sure that you're making the most of those pockets of people. Christmas will be a big opportunity for that, making sure that you stop them in their tracks and send them sideways to the plant area.

Kate:
But then you say, hopefully you've got them for life, because then they move somewhere where they get a garden and suddenly you get a bit older and you, actually, maybe it's not just about houseplants. Well, I'm interested in this. So, you get that, that, that passion early. Yeah. As you get older and you get more space because obviously one of the problems is for young people is, is space. You’ve not got a garden. Not got much space outside. But get those people now.

Nat:
Yeah we spoke when we first started that we felt there was a problem, that the industry was just relying on people to wake up one day and want to plant rhododendrons. And I think a lot of that was in just about my generation, but not quite Megs, because she's a fair bit younger than me. We would have time in the garden with our grandparents in particular. Especially my grandparents. but that an anomaly. But, you know, everybody would have that green time, as a kid. And then it was nostalgia to fall back upon as you had more time or more resources. Whereas Megs is a bit younger, had screen time instead of green time. And then they're not going to have it that fall back on.
But I think Covid helped us catch some of that back up, because that was a heck of a summer, wasn't it, when the with the weather and people being off? You know, it put a lot of people out in the gardens building those memories to fall back on. But I do think we're going to come across this issue again, where in ten year’s time, we're going to have another generation that hasn't had any green time, they’ve just had screen time. I mean, I think the industry needs to be aware of that and be proactive about that. Because we just keep hearing: oh, there'll be more over 60s than ever in the next demographic. And you're like, well, no, we can't just keep relying on that happening.

Kate:
No, no. Absolutely not.

Nat:
And I think TikTok will be a big part of that.

Meg:
Yes. For sure. Getting young people into – ooh what’s this, can I grow it? And learning all of those care facts, they can actually grow a succulent. You won't kill it.

Nat:
Its collectability as well isn’t it? And like some but something being short demand is a big marketing tactic.

Meg:
And if you can get that like a rare or unusual kind of plant that people are actively looking for in your garden centres, then young people will make the effort to drive to that place to check it out. And if you create a lovely experience for them, then they're likely to come back again and again to see what else you have to offer. So, that's another entry point to...

Nat:
It’s like Pokemon cards. You know, if you've got a shiny Charizard - I think that's a thing - in your store. You know, there used to be with Charlie Bears before it was Jelly Cat. I have a customer with a tiny garden centre, but a huge Charlie Bear shop. And he would just get the… they’d drop the rare ones with him, because it would send people on, like a treasure hunt. And it's that kind of same concept is what houseplants have done really well.

Meg:
Take it from someone who's got 300 houseplants, it works. It works. Trust me.

Phil:
Oh, that's great.

Kate:
But no rhododendrons yet.

Meg:
No.

Phil:
We're going to start wrapping things up. But before we do that, Nat, I bumped into you briefly at the National Plant Show earlier this year, and you mentioned that although the good weather had been good for garden centres, this didn't necessarily translate to nurseries, such as yours, Happy Plants. Can you expand on what you meant by that?

Nat:
Yeah. So, our crops are really fast moving. And that means that we, we have an amount in each window, and we can't really make that more or less at short notice. We can't pause them, we can't fast forward them. And the window of the season became so contracted. It started so early. And we had the amount ready that we had, and it meant the garden centres purchased a lot in from other avenues, the continent, other nurseries with which the well within their rights to do.
But then the season kind of… did the season stop? They all had a lot of stock in when things started to slow down. We still had stock coming ready, and we had stock coming ready well into July. Last year, July was a really good sales month because they hadn't hit their targets in May last year, whereas in May this year they hit their targets and just seemed to play it really safe for the rest of the year.
To the point that the HTA marketing review for July says garden centre footfall was up, but plant sales were down and, I think it's because they had sort of the dregs of this bit left here. Meanwhile we had really, really nice plants coming ready on the nursery weekly, with no real route to market and some really smart retailers - in my mind, obviously - made the decision to clear the drugs, had a big clearance weekend and kept everything fresh and new and exciting and had sort of a core offer each week, whereas I had other stores that said, oh, sorry, my balance sheet says that I've got too many plants, but they didn't have any colour. They didn't have any…

Kate:
They were rubbish.

Nat:
Yeah, it's like trying to sell an advent calendar in February and saying, you've got too much inventory. You know, it's just it was it was a real shame. And we could see it happening. And certainly back in April, an article went out on whole week saying, well, it started early, so it will finish early. And you just think thanks that really helps. And also not necessary because last year when they needed it, they needed July to hit their targets because they were so far behind from May, whereas a mediocre May we still sold everything. You know, they just didn't buy the chunk on top of ours. Yeah. And last year they needed it and they got on social media. They got busy, they drove the volume. They buy, you know, had really good offers. They really kept it going.
But we've seen it again with Autumn, unfortunately, autumn went very early I think, because they hadn't had anything new in for so long because their balance sheet said they had too many plants and they bought, autumn very early and then have almost run the momentum out of it. But you've got customers that you've grown a heck of a lot of stuff for, and there's no contracts in horticulture. So, you grow it. It's trust. And you're saying, look, you're not getting through the volumes you need to, can we look at putting a multi-buy on? And they said, no, we need to protect our margins.
Meanwhile, my margins are rotting on the nursery, and we need to be really careful because there's already so much consolidation. There’s already so many chains buying their own stores or just grower retailers shutting down nurseries that supply people around the corner and drive around in the car boot every time they sell a shelf, you know, and they, they let them pick the colours, are going. You can only do this if you do it on a scale, and if you do it on a scale, when you're pushing string, you're pushing string, you know, it's when you're in the crap, you're in the crap. (You can I did that!) Oh yeah, when you’re pushing string, you’re pushing string. And it's really dangerous. And I don't think it makes any sense because those nurseries are not going to be there in 4 or 5 years. We've we take on enough risks.
And we take on too many risks to not have allies when we need help. And we did have allies. We had some really good allies. But there's others that you think when you’re looking at producing stuff for them for next year, you think, well, we're looking after them in that bit where they got the chance to make all that money, and then they just left us to fend for ourselves. It leaves a bit of a sour taste.
But the main take home from it, it's not about me and my nursery, it's about this industry needs a safe supply of UK plants. And it's a bit like with farming. Nobody's setting up a new farm. You've got the nurseries, you've got they’re consolidating. They're getting bigger. But they're getting bigger because families like us and like the Allens More guys, you know, putting a lot of risk on the line, a lot of money on the line to, to grow, to, to fulfil the need that's there for the product. But we can't just, do it for… We don't do it for fun.
Well we do!

Phil:
But It's a business.

Nat:
The love of it doesn't pay the bills.

Phil:
It's commercial realities.

Nat:
Definitely. And I think that it can be quite shortsighted to stop buying, to protect your own margin when it means that the growers might not be there to the supply…

Kate:
So, what would be one kind of plea that you would give to anyone listening?

Nat:
It's a relationship. It's allies. It's, you know, if we bust a gut to get things to you in peak, I would like to see someone willing to run at 2.5 instead of 3 mark up. It's not just about their own performance when they rely so heavily on the supply chain.
It's about, sometimes you have to do something because it helps your ally. Or because you ask them to grow that many plants, then you need to find a way to get through that many plants. It's not just an option to just say no. And that wouldn't stand in any other industry. But there isn't room for contracts in horticulture because we could have a crop failure and be vulnerable in just the same way that, they decide not to take 6,000 of something and leave us vulnerable, but the good trust only has so much, wiggle room.
Yeah, it's been a really hard one. And I think as much as any year, it's the most, cynical I've been. I might have to rebrand as Cynical Plants. But, yeah,

Kate
Not so Happy Plants.

Phil:
I’m not sure it's quite as catchy.

Nat:
Yeah, I think we've felt vulnerable because we've been so through so much growth and put a lot of money on the line to build a new nursery. And you just think, oh hang on, we've just meant that when we're stuck, we're bigger stuck.

Phil:
Well I think that absolutely wraps things up here. But, it's been wonderful talking to both of you Meg, Nat thanks so much for coming to see us.

Kate:
So, much food for thought as well.

Phil:
Yeah definitely.

Kate:
Thank you.

Meg & Nat:
Thank you so much.

Phil:
Okay, so I'm here with, Mark from Creative TV. Mark, how are you finding the show so far?

Mark:
Very good actually, we had a really good day, yesterday. Lots of visitors, lots of new visitors as well. So, yeah, really good.

Phil:
And it's an interesting business model. You've got a I mean, it's not like anything else you see around the show. It's really eye catching. I guess that's the whole point of it isn't it?

Mark:
Absolutely. Yeah. So, in-store TV promotion is there to sell product to a customer when they're actually in-store. So, it catches our attention just as it's done for you today.

Phil:
So, we're stood in front of this solar fountain, display here, and you were telling me this is one of your, best sellers at the minute, or getting the most traction at the moment.

Mark:
Yeah. So, currently over the summer, it's been the best seller. But that will change because what we do is we change the products on that stand depending on the time of year, so that product will change every 12, 16 weeks.

Phil:
Okay. So, in the garden centre you install the stand. But yet the product and the videos will be changed on a rotational basis depending on the season.

Mark:
Yeah. Exactly.

Phil:
Okay. So, we've got a solar fountain here. Just tell me about some of the other products that you've got.

Mark:
Okay. So, in the wintertime we'll go to more Christmas related products and gifting products because, you know, the garden centres have sort of trimmed back down on garden. And more gift products come into the store.
So, we actually do that and we mimic that on our display stands.

Phil:
Okay. It's quite a wide array of products you've got. Do you source those from worldwide?

Mark:
Yeah we do we source we've we go through obviously we go to China shows, but we actually work with other European companies that do TV promotion. So, we work as a group.

Phil:
Okay. And do you create the videos and things, are you actually a video production company as well?

Mark:
Yeah, we are, we actually do it all in-house.

Phil:
Fantastic. Well I just wish you all the best for the rest of the show.
Mark:
Thank you, and you.

Phil:
Cheers Mark.

Phil:
I just want to say I am so thrilled to, welcome onto the show today, Kaz Edwards, who is the, National Sales Manager for Heart of Eden. Hi there Kaz.

Kaz:
Amongst many things.

Kate:
Hi Kaz

Kaz:
Hello.

Phil:
I should have written it down. So, Kaz, maybe we could start by you… if you could share a little bit about your career journey in the garden care industry.

Kaz:
Of course, yes, it. Well, it started about 17 years ago, bizarrely. I'd been in recruitment for five years, which is very hard sales. And that kind of went south when the recession hit. So, I decided to take a two month secondment, temporary job at Miracle-Gro. As seasonal staff. And that ended up lasting about ten years.

Kate:
So, very seasonal!

Kaz:
So, I started very much in the sort of customer services order processing. And then very quickly worked my way through to looking after key accounts very much on the supportive logistics side. And then by the time I left, I was looking after B&Q for Miracle-Gro.

Kate:
That's a biggie.

Kaz:
Which was huge. Yes, in every, every sense. But fantastic. So, yeah. So, I was with Miracle-Gro, for ten wonderful years and then moved over to Bord na Móna. Again, looking after B&Q and national accounts, from that side. And really, since then, I've gone through to Southern Trident to where I am now at Heart of Eden.
So, it was more about growing media. Horticulture, it’s a fantastic industry, as we know, but it's growing media that's been the constant throughout.

Kate:
Right. So, last year you went through redundancy - sorry to bring this up - as we know a tough experience for anyone. So, how did you cope with that and what role did the industry’s support play for you at the time?

Kaz:
Suere, Yeah it was a shock actually. You know, is it always is. And you know, it's something that isn't personal, but it is emotional.

Kate:
It feels it.

Kaz:
It does feel it. Absolutely. So, I mean, I was supported by the company and certainly my boss, Steve Harper, at the time, you know, very supportive. But there is always that trepidation, isn't there? Is anyone going to need or want my skills? So, the LinkedIn post went out at the beginning of the year, and genuinely it was humbling, the response and quite overwhelming that I got from the industry, which was, incredible. And that wasn't just… there was supportive and emotional support: How you doing? Just checking in.
Hope everything's okay? But also, direct competitors, buyers, customers. There's a job here. Would you be interested? And everyone linked up and put recommendations. So, I was incredibly overwhelmed by the whole thing, I have to say. And felt very supported because it was a scary time.
But yeah. No. And I think, you know, the industry, we know that it's incestuous and everyone knows everyone else. And that's one of its strengths actually. And that really came to the fore for me personally.

Kate:
So, how long was it from kind of being made redundant to working with Heart of Eden?

Kaz:
I was on garden leave... Well, not garden leave, I was on three months’ notice. I finished, in March and I started two weeks later with Heart of Eden.

Kate:
Oh my goodness.

Phil:
That’s incredible.

Kaz:
Yeah.

Kate:
Wow. I didn't realise it was that soon.

Kaz:
No, I was very, very fortunate. And like I say, with the support with the industry, I was in a very, I was in a fantastic position that I was able to choose a role that I wanted to go in. And, whilst the companies that, were offered to me were fantastic and would have been fantastic, Heart of Eden, because of the growing media connection, passionate about sustainability and peat free, it just ticked every box.
And I like to joke that they wanted someone with a growing media retail expert. They couldn't find someone, so they asked me to do it. But and it felt like a really natural move. So, at the beginning of the year absolutely lost and dejected. But actually I've gone into a role where I feel that I'm doing some really good work and I love my job.

Kate:
Brilliant,

Kaz:
Yeah. So, yeah, really happy.

Kate:
A good news story.

Phil:
That's really good to hear. So, looking back, what did you feel that you've learned from that transition period that you carry with you now?

Kaz:
I think this is true certainly again of the industry, but I think in all work ethics, I think the way that you treat people through your career, and your daily life will pay you back in two-folds. I mean, certainly from a sales perspective, you know, relationship building is incredibly important to what I do. And I hope that, you know, respectful treating people honestly and being candid at all times, pays dividends.
And I think that's what came back to me. So, my advice to anyone is, you know, be aware of everybody that you interact with, whether it's the admin person, the receptionist, the sales director, and everyone in between, because you never know when those people are going to be able to support and help you.

Kate:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think we were talking a bit about that last night weren’t we?

Phil:
We were, yeah.

Kate:
You know, make sure you treat the person down below with as much respect as those… because as you go down and they come up.

Kaz:
100%, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil:
So, what advice would you give anyone in the industry who might be facing career uncertainty or big changes like the ones that you've experienced?

Kaz:
Be bold. You know, which is really difficult sometimes because like we were saying, it's an emotional and I wasn't always bold, you know, at times. But it's: don't be afraid to put yourself out there, because if you do - and I was nervous about putting the post out on LinkedIn, and I was bold and the response came back in two fold, as I say.
So, I think, you know, don't be afraid to reach out - the industry is very, very giving. And actually, wants to help when fundamentally, as humans, we deal with people. And that's what we do particularly well in horticulture. So, yeah. I would just say be bold, put yourself out there, and you will be surprised. It will be paid back in spades.
See what I did there? See what it did. Yeah.

Kate:
So, let's get round to where you are now. You are the national account manager at Heart of Eden. Can you tell us - I mean, you've told us a bit about the media - but what else was it about the company that drew you to it?

Kaz:
I think the main driver is it became really important to me over the last few years of my career. Is that sustainability and efficacy in growing media has been lacking in the last two years. And we know with the peat free argument. And it's not really an argument per se. It will come, but it's been rumbling on in the industry. What I loved particularly about Heart of Eden is that they've always been peat free. So, whereas some manufacturers of growing media are having to react to that change with varying degrees of successes, Heart of Eden, have never had to make that adaptation. So, there is also you get sustainability, but you also get that efficacy. And one of my passionate, sort of drivers is making sure that the consumer opens a bag of compost and it's going to be useful, it's going to be sustainable, and it's going to be effective. Because there's nothing worse, there’s so much work and industry to get that bag of compost into that consumer's hands. And if it's substandard, they plant their - first time gardener - plants, their tomato plant or their petunia or their hanging basket for the first time, if it doesn't grow, they've spent £30 on a pot, £10 on a plant, and if it doesn't work, the compost, they will disengage and think, I can't garden. It's not for me. I haven't got green fingers.
So, it was really important to me with Heart of Eden that actually we have a product that works, but it ticks that box, it gives back, it doesn't take away.

Kate:
I like that.

Phil:
Yeah. So, the transition to peat free has been a huge thing in the industry, as you just said. But Heart of Eden hasn't had to go through that transition because you’ve always been peat free. So, how have customers been responding to your products.

Kaz:
I think - well, very positive is, you know, 100% positivity behind it because I think that most consumers, and arguably most people in our industry have been disappointed with peat free. And I think if we're all being really candid, it hasn't hit the mark for a number of years. It is improving. Definitely.
Certainly they don't necessarily know who Heart of Eden, because we've been for 25 years. We've been there on the commercial landscaping side. But as a brand which was born out of the need in Covid, it's a relatively new brand and there is a suspicion with peat free that, oh, well, I don't like it, it doesn't work, for the reasons we just spoken about.

Phil:
And I think there have been some new entrants into the market who really haven't quite hit the mark as well.

Kaz:
Indeed. Indeed. And it's it almost puts things backwards in people's minds, which is detrimental to all of us. Certainly, Heart of Eden. But one of the things that, particularly doing shows like Glee, when customers actually feel and see and look and use our compost, they are, genuinely surprised. Obviously, we've got samples out of Glee at the moment. But it looks and feels like you want to put your hands in. I mean, one should always wear gloves when handling growing media, but, you know, with peat based, you want to engage and be in with the soil and you can do that with ours, it's not full of wood shavings. It's not smelly or mulchy. It is a good compost. And, and I think people are surprised by that. And also, how effective it is. It actually is a growing media. It is a compost, you know, and that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone because they're coming to our retailers, all of these gardeners and consumers expecting them to be the experts and sell them the tools they need to have a successful gardening experience.

Kate:
So, from your perspective, what do you see as the biggest opportunities and the biggest challenges for garden care business in the next few years?

Kaz:
Well, I think the opportunities, we all have to be more sustainable. And I know it's something that is constantly sort of batted around. But given the industry that we're in, we should be at the forefront of that movement. We at the very least, all of us should be doing our part. Heart of Eden are already doing it and will continue to do that.
You know, it's just you don't get, less with that. You know, it's a constant thing. I think the challenges obviously the peat ban coming - or not coming - I think it will come obviously, because retail has moved on, certainly in the retail market has moved on. And, you know, for a number of years, so it's definitely here to stay.
So, to resist and say I will use peat until I can't is a fair comment. But the reality is it will go, I'm not going to say on record when I think that will be because I don't think anyone would. I think that's up to the King's speech, isn't it? So, his job, not mine. But, you know, it will be coming. So, I think that it's how the industry traverses that change for a lot of us, myself included. It's not going to be a fundamental change in my day-to-day life. But I think for the industry, it will move us forward. I think it stretches to growers as well because that will have a far-reaching impact.

Phil:
Yeah. So, you've mentioned a few times about the importance of sustainability. How important do you think it is, that there's collaboration and support across the industry? Especially as we move towards more sustainable practices, not just with growing medium, but just across the industry as a whole?

Kaz:
One of the key links, and this has certainly come to the fore in the last few years, in my experience, particularly with peat free is the need to feed your compost. You know, peat, held things. You know, it's a fantastic growing media. That's why we've used it. But we need to move on from that.
And one of the key things is that, absolute need to feed the compost after you've planted, you know, and I think that's, education for manufacturers. So, we need to look at, the fertilisers that we're using. How much potassium content is there? I use coir in my compost which releases potassium. So, the fertiliser that I'm using probably doesn't need to have a high K, for example.
But I think it's, it's understanding that manufacturers need to convey that to retailers and retailers need to support us and get that message out to consumers as well, for aforementioned reason that we want gardeners to be successful. So, and again, fertiliser, not necessarily my expertise, but again, that has to be sustainable because you don't want to an environmentally friendly, growing medium and then a load of mined minerals. So, you know, there has to be that balance. So, I think that there needs to be more work together across the channels within the industry and also manufacturers - The Responsible Sourcing Scheme, for example, is a great leveller. Take the commercials out of it, take the rivalry out of it. Let's actually unite because we can all have different formulations that work potentially – mine’s the better one naturally - you know, fundamentally, but I think it's key to understand where we're getting those products from and be relatively unified across in that approach.

Phil:
Yeah. And so apart from the Responsible Sourcing Scheme, what other things do you feel could be done. Is it an education thing? And is that consumer or is that consumer and retailer?

Kaz:
I think I think it's both I think it's both. I think it would be, really, unfair to say that the onus is completely on the retailer. You know - retail is hard. We know it's hard. Whether you're an independent garden centre or whether you're a mass merchant. And trying to get that message across, I can sell into my buyer very, very simply and easy because I'm having a conversation with that person and I can do all the benefits of my product to convey that, into a retail agenda. I think the manufacturer needs to support the buyer to get whether that's point of sale, things like this: media, it's about getting that message out there. And I think that that's absolutely key. The message is key. But you have to do that as a collaboration with the retailers and the manufacturers.

Kate:
Definitely, definitely. We were talking about that with Peter Burks from the Garden Centre Association. How important is.

Kaz:
And they're the sort of forums, The GCA as well that can actually advocate that kind of activity.

Phil:
Absolutely.

Kate:
So, this year's Glee show brings many, many brands, buyers and voices together. What's been your impression, of the show this year?

Kaz:
It's been… every show is different. I think this is my 16th Glee. I know yeah it ages me, I was a child, what can I say? I think it's been every Glee is slightly different. I have been quite busy because of the new job, so I haven't really left the stand too much. But, yeah.
No, I think that there's always that buzz. There's always that excitement. You know, I think this season has been has gone well for most retailers. So, that's a positive. And manufacturers with the sun came out, so that always helps. Not so much for grass. But anyway. But so I think that that at this time of year it's time for people to sort of take stock. And that's coming apparent. Okay, what worked this year, what didn't work last year. So.

Phil:
So, have you actually spotted any trends or innovations here? And you said you haven't been off the stand?

Kaz
Not very much.

Phil:
But have you spotted anything that's really excited you or you thought was interesting?

Kaz:
Well, not so much trends around Glee. As I say, I've been a slave to my stand. But actually, one of the points sorry to keep going back to the peat free, but, it's very much the timbre of the conversation, 4 or 5 years ago, people would be presented with a peat free, and the instant reaction would be, I'm not using that, I use peat.
And dismiss it. The timbre of the conversation has definitely changed. It's become very noticeable with Glee this year is. Yes, I want to use peat free or I don't know what peat free is, can you tell me about it? So, for me, that's incredibly encouraging. It's, you know, from the people, the diehards of: No, no through my dead fingers will I be using peat free - to suddenly, right, okay, let's embrace this. So, yeah, that that's been the real change I've seen or the difference this year.

Kate:
Okay. So, what's next for Heart of Eden? Anything on the horizon that we should be watching out for?

Kaz:
I think, for me and the business, we just want to get our name out there. I think we are pitched in the right format. I think we are a point of difference, within the growing media market, which is competitive. I have no interest to take huge amounts of business. Huge amounts, from the main stays, but actually, I think, for Heart of Eden, we'll be doing a lot more sort of PR, a lot more collaborations as well, because not everyone knows who we are. And, I think we're amazing. And I'm incredibly proud, genuinely proud of what we do.

Kate:
I must admit I do, I love the branding.

Kaz:
Thank you.

Kate:
It’s very simple.

Kaz:
Yes. I can't take credit for But no, I think it's a nice clear messaging. It does what it's supposed to do. And I just that for us as a business, our strategy is to get it into consumers hands because we know once they start using it, they're going to be delighted with it.

Phil:
You mentioned that you are a challenger brand. So, what's the biggest challenge as a challenger brand that you're facing? Is it just being, noticing and getting the name out there?

Kaz:
Yeah, I think so because I think it's twofold. There are, you know, very established growing media brands out there that arguably have gone through formulation changes over the last ten years. But they're not the same products, but consumers always buy them, assuming that it’s going to be the same. And that's not always the case. There is also, as we mentioned earlier, there's been some peat free in the market that has been substandard. I think it's fair to say.

Kate:
Absolutely fair to say.

Kate:
So, that's something that we have to overcome because I think there is an element of suspicion about someone new coming in. As I say, for us, we've got 25 years’ experience, albeit not in the retail market. So, hopefully build that trust, within the consumer.

Phil:
Yeah. Well, Kaz, thank you so much for coming to join us today, telling us a bit about your journey. And I'm glad it was a happy ending. That's brilliant. And, for just telling us a little bit more about Heart of Eden as well as being really interesting.

Kate:
Thank you.

Kaz:
Thank you so much.

Phil:
Please do subscribe, like and review us on your podcast platform of choice – it only takes a moment, and it helps us to make the podcast possible. If you found this episode useful, do spread the word and share it with your colleagues. Signing up to our mailing list at theunderground.fm will mean that you’ll receive insight and news and new episodes, straight to your inbox.

The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.