Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now. As well as recording 20 interviews, Kate and I ventured out of our recording booth to gain some insights from exhibitors on the show floor.

What do a self-proclaimed plant promoter and an avid bird watcher have in common? They show that Glee reaches far beyond the shores of the British Isles. Michael Perry, also, known as Mr Plant Geek finds himself travelling around the world to discover new and exciting plants destined for the UK market, his Future Plants stand at Glee this year showcased over 100 new plants. And Paul Oliver who runs a chain of bird care centre travelled from Canada to discover new innovations and partners at this year’s show.

I'm delighted to say that we're here with Michael Perry.

Kate:
Welcome, Michael.

Michael:
You guys, I love you guys, honestly.

Kate:
Oh, we love you.

Phil:
Yeah.

Kate:
Just, Honestly, mutual love club.

Phil:
So, Michael, you've recently settled on the term a plant promoter just to describe yourself. What does that title actually mean? And how does it differ from an influencer or writer, or from a plant hunter?

Michael:
Good question. it's really funny because the way that I… I think I’ve talked similar to you about this before, but kind of like the way I run my career is I just follow it very much on instinct and let's see what's happening. And sometimes you don't realise what's happened until it's happened. That sounds crazy, but you know what I mean.
And so, for fear is a kind of like, yeah, I'm kind of like a presenter, but I'm also, a product developer than I was like, kind of like, I don't know. And I just suddenly in the last kind of year or so, I kind of felt - I'm promoting and kind of promoting plants and mostly and everything I do is something that comes down to plant promoter, because I'm not really a gardener. Do you know what I mean? I'm not kind of a day-to-day gardener, and I'm not like, I'm not really a houseplant expert necessarily. It's kind of those… they're niches that I sometimes get kind of like put into. But really, I'd say that overriding, job title I guess is plant promoter because I do work with a lot of big breeding companies across Europe to then, you know, create content around their plants. When I'm here at Glee of see plant promoter putting together Future Plants. I was at the Green is Life in Poland plant promoting, you know pulling together new different unusual plants from the show, creating a display with those. And yeah, the podcast, plant promoter – Substack, plant promoter, that’s it really and I think that, I don't know if I'm the first of this kind or not.
I made my own niche there somehow, but yeah.

Kate:
I think you’re the first with that title. Definitely. So, yeah. So, how do you how do you decide if a plant is promotion worthy? What criteria do you use?

Michael:
Oh, that's a nice question.
The example would be: two Fridays ago, being in Eden's Creations in the Netherlands, which is a heather breeder and nursery, which is really interesting. They do a lot of conifers as well, because that obviously fits into the same, kind of like, growing schedule. And they, we would have this tour and they had this, little spore from a Chamaecyparis from Ellwoodii, and it looks like the Euphorbia Cactus.

Phil:
Oh, I saw that

Michael:
Oh my gosh. And I don't think they really realise the potential of it. It's just when a plant looks So, distinctly different and you just know - how to answer this - You just know it's something that gardeners will get excited about, but something that also, non-gardeners will get excited about. That is really the magical plant to promote because that is it.
And if you look back to something like the Toim Tayto or the Egg and Chips plant, that was of interest to not just the gardening customers, but also, the non-gardeners, and that is where El PaSo, Chamaecyparis really kind of ticks the boxes. So, I'd say primarily yeah it's looking for new exciting different plants. Not always about new genetics.
It's also, about looking at things with new eyes as well. So, yeah, and I would say also, it could be about plants, you know are a benefit to then the grower something that is then grown more efficiently. Colour breaks is obviously always really important. Some things that can be used in a different way as well. You know, I've had this, idea recently about having bonsai in window boxes.

Kate:
Okay.

Michael:
Because it can be done - because think about where's bonsai happiest?

Kate:
Outside. Yeah.

Michael:
Yeah, of course it needs is roots restricted. But there's no reason why we can't keep them in their original containers. Growing them in a window box under planted with something frothy. You know, I don't know, I'm always looking for different ways to do things with things we already know. Phalaenopsis, you know, this new trailing type one, the Navarra from and Natura.
You can have that outside in a half basket on the right in the summer. Why not? Yeah.

Kate:
Yeah. We grow spider plants outside in hanging baskets.

Michael:
Exactly, I'm always…. It’s just plants which are a new, different, unusual, but also, new ways to use plants. We already know. I'm just really… I guess I'm a plant promoter, but my strapline is “I'm just getting excited about plants”. That's it.

Phil:
I mean, you can tell that.

Michael:
Oh my god, I’ve just got the best strapline. “I've just wet my plants.”

Phil:
So, Michael, you’re frequently travelling worldwide looking at plants destined for the UK. You just mentioned one there which looked a bit like a cactus. Are there any other examples that you recently discovered that you think, wow, that is just amazing. And I haven't seen anything like it.

Michael:
It's really interesting. I guess I see my role is it's not necessarily I'm just sourcing for the UK market. I'm just being a connector, just trying to show what's there in the industry, kind of like across Europe. You know, some of the stuff is further afield as well these days as well. So, kind of like as a connector showing the consumer what's happening in the industry.
But also, giving more eyes within the industry to see what's happening with different companies. And recently, what was it? I was in Poland at the Green is Life, fair a couple of weeks ago. And it's very funny because a lot of… and we also, find this at the Plantarium in the Netherlands.
Growers don't always know the exciting plants they've got. And it's not always about new genetics. And it's very easy to launch a new plant and kind of put it in the Innovation Awards and all of this stuff. But it's about recognising some qualities in stuff that you already have. And, and at the Plantarium, for example, I put together a display of about 50 plants that weren't even in the innovations.
And we put together this like sushi belt where the plants went round around very cool and some cool stuff there. But then in Poland, I arrived and they'd given me this, area to pull together like unique plants from the show. And I was like, I don't really know the market or the industry. What can I find here?
But I found about 45 cool plants there. You know, not always new genetics, but things like there was a black, kind of purple, black leaved, Sichuan pepper. Which was super sexy.
Also, there's a lot of cool, like echinacea, like breeding there and also, like Hot Papaya, which is one that was introduced about 20 years ago. It's still looking strong, and it just looks amazing. So, I pulled that out as well. Then there was a grower that had, I noticed it as I walked past and I saw this plant was like what it that?
And it was like this kind of very, light yellow coloured, flowered hosta. Amazing. So, yellow flowered hosta.

Kate:
A yellow flowered hosta. Okay.

Michael:
Super cool. We took a like the butter yellow, kind of like a Digitalis Lutea, that sort of yellow was like, never seen this before. And they were like, yes, the only yellow flowered host. We've been showing it on display for like, 15 years. And there's only ever been one garden designer that’s looked at it because I think I'm used to being So, damn nosy. No, I'm just like, I'm looking at the stand. I'm looking at what's on the trolley. I'm like, like a jackal. And So, I saw this yellow flowered hosta, and then I and I highlighted it because people can forget what cool plants they've got in their realms. And that is the thing.
So, it's just kind of pulling those out and getting excited about them really. Let's get excited about plants.

Kate:
Yeah. And looking for the next new dahlia, because I suppose dahlias years ago, you know, they fell out of fashion So, totally you can bring something back that people still love but isn't fashionable anymore.

Michael:
Yeah, it's not always about the new stuff. And I feel like, you know, great that you mentioned dahlias because. Oh, my God, when I was at the Plantarium, there's a…
Did you see the Black Dahlia?

Kate:
I saw your post. Yeah.

Phil:
That wall with all the different cubes.

Michael:
But what was So, clever?
If they got this black dahlia from Poland called Chinacharacter, which means, like, black character. And it was just there in the display. It was like they showcased it or anything. So, you're looking at this display and there's all these pinks, pastel colours, then suddenly this black one.
And it really is. And you have to watch the video to really see the blackness of it because it is proper black. It’s the black of like Molly Sanderson Viola. You know, because we got some blacks are not necessarily blacks.

Kate:
They’re mainly purple, yeah.

Michael:
But yeah, the black of that and the black of, Paul Scherer, which is like this black tulip. That's probably the best… Or Nightmare, Nightmare’s a good black tulip.

Kate:
So, will this be available to buy next year?

Michael:
It's really limited. So, it's kind of like micro prop, that sort of job. But it was just yeah, amazing. It's just stuff that's out there just begging to be rediscovered and yeah.

Kate:
So, what’s brought you to Glee this year?

Michael:
Ooh la la. Getting excited about plants. I wet my plants.
So, it's really the Future Plants display, where I've pulled together about 100 brand new plants, and we've got more plants that we can put on the stand this year, which is brilliant because it's the third year. So, that's a great sign. And yeah, and again, I've pulled together some really cool different plants there with the help of brands that are here at the show, but also, ones further afield. I've had some plants that I've had in my car for a couple of weeks. I pick it up around the country, but we've got the El PaSo, show, Chamaecyparis that we've got a really cool new pineapple called Baby Boomer which has got baby pineapples on the pineapple. It's a really awesome plant.
What else we got? We've got some really cool conifers, because I think the next… There’s one called Green Penguin. Which is super cool. Honestly, you'll love it. Well, we've got some great Agastache. I think lavender should be running scared. Yes. When it comes to Agastache.
Pink Pearl is a very good perennial type as well. Very sexy. The salvia tropicolor as well from Middleton. They're very nice, very exotic looking. Some really cool houseplants there too. Some even nice purple Anthuriums as well. There's like, inspiration in every corner and there's a new Amie Rose. Which is like flowers, like a petunia.
And it's like you treat it like a bedding plant, honestly. And it has the most amazing raspberry fragrance. It changes colour from peach through to raspberry as well. Oh my gosh. So, a hundred super cool plants of every shape and size. And I love putting it together, I really do. And then we've been doing the tours and. Yeah it’s been fab…

Kate:
And you've been talking. Is that right?

Michael:
Yeah, yeah. So, well, I do kind of talk on the stage of nine different trends. And then I take everyone off like the Pied Piper of plants, and I've got this, black, flag, big black flag, and I'll take everyone down the hall, and then I go to the Future Plants display.

Phil:
Brilliant. So, what's the biggest trend that you've, highlighted for everybody this year?

Michael:
Oh, gosh. There’s nine.

Phil:
We haven’t got time for nine.

Michael:
I mean, I pick out two or three. I've got go green or go lean, which is really kind of a combination of plants that are more efficient for growers, you know, which is obviously really important and we forget that. But we also, need to keep the consumer happy as well. So, it's also, plants to kind of tick that box, but are also, more kind of sustainable, better for wildlife, maybe longer flowering kind of those different kind of different sides of the coin there.
I'd say houseplants as well. We've got houseplant Royalty, which is really houseplants, is still a growth area but also, - So, flowering houseplants, lots of different kind of dimensions to that. When you do dig into the new, we've got a new Ice Whisper Phalaenopsis, which is an all-white orchid. The moment you see an all-white orchid without any coloured markings, you realise that's pretty cool.
Pretty cool. And also, like, obviously the back to Anthuriums but then streptocarpus but also, streptocarpus as a patio plant in the shade.
Yeah. Because the thing is we're a bit crazy sometimes - Kate doesn't approve I can tell.

Kate:
No no no. I like it, I’ve been to Dibley’s. It’s just mega.

Michael:
Well when I was there, I was chatting to them about like, well, because we forget all of these plants, they're not houseplants. They're outdoor plants. So, suddenly we're like, you could grow the outside and we're like, what? Are you crazy? What? You think it was bred to be in a lounge? You're the crazy one.

Kate:
No, I, I put a lot of my houseplants outside this year, and they loved it.

Michael:
Honestly. So, I was talking to them when I was last at Dibley’s, and I was like, oh, and I, we saw it Chelsea this year on the South African display and like streptocarpus you have them in a woodland area. Do you know what I mean? So, like, when I was at Thompson & Morgan like doing the trials like maybe about 15 years ago now we, we had a trial with streptocarpus outdoors.
And I remember also, being ahead of the time of having a begonia rex outdoors. And now we've got things like space stars that are bred for outdoors. So, yeah. So, really I love experimenting. So, that's another trend.
AlSo, very proud of this. And I built the trends actually back in January when I did the plant catwalk show for Plant Life over in the Netherlands, with nine different trends.
We had them coming down the conveyor belt, and it was like a catwalk and all this stuff. And, and the other one is hedges and wedges.

Kate:
Hedges and wedges.

Michael:
Which is hedging plants. So, new different hedging plants, kind of, trying to give alternative to Buxus, but also, about maybe hedging that is better for wildlife. A few different choices there, but also, maybe camellia hedge or magnolia hedge, which is kind of a bit different for hedges.
And wedges which is ground cover. So, things like ground cover, hydrangeas, you know, the Amie Rose as well, basically encouraging people to use living mulch.
You know, cover the ground, keep the moisture locked in, stop the weeds. Yeah, you can do that with plants. It doesn't have to be a layer of bark.

Kate:
Yeah, okay, I like it. Yeah, it does make sense.

Phil:
They use that in agriculture all the time don’t they: cover crops.

Michael:
Yeah, exactly. It's amazing. You've just pointed that out, but it makes So, much sense.

Kate:
Cover crops.

Michael:
Yeah. Yeah yeah. Because often what I said to people like, you know, when you plant some shrubs and they haven't filled out yet for the first few years. So, why not So, hardy annuals around there.

Kate:
Absolutely.

Michael:
Phil, that is the cover crop. The cover crop of home gardens is hardy annuals.

Phil:
Oh well, you see I am a horticultural expert!

Michael:
Yeah, that’s super cool.

Kate:
You’re getting there. I might test you on what a streptocarpus is later.

Phil:
No don’t do that!

Michael:
That is really cool though. That's a good point. Yeah.

Phil:
So, Michael, your Substack newsletter Grow This Not That, blends botanical news, travel and plant discoveries. How did you decide Substack was the best platform for your voice?

Michael:
Good question. Before I do that, I just want to, interrupt this to give you a compliment, because honestly, when you emailed through the questions, they are the most thoughtful questions ever. Because, you know, I get interviewed by a lot of places and sometimes it's just a very lazy little look through the website, one page, and they kind of like ask you about something that happened 12 years ago or something. But this is really nice, well, researched questions.

Phil:
Oh, thank you.

Michael:
Yeah, really amazing. So, yeah, Substack I think is a real up and coming platform. It's like a blogging platform. It also, goes to your readers as a newsletter, which is great because you then you're not a slave to the algorithm. So, it goes directly to your readers, which is fab.
And yeah, I think it's a good platform. You can monetise your content as well. And we should never be shy to monetise our knowledge, you know what I mean? Because we do a lot of work to earn it, you know? So, why not? And it's nice. Yeah. I like the way it works. And I'm doing a weekly Hort report indeed, on a Friday, which is bringing together all the different parts of the industry, because I feel these days we can't keep stuff separate anymore because everyone sees everything.
If you look at Instagram as businesses, we use Instagram. As consumers, we use Instagram. So, kind of B2B also, goes B2C, C2C, C2B, blah blah blah. It's just all crosses over. So, I thought why not bring news together that goes across all of those different parts of the industry and it does. So, there's like commercial news, there’s job news, there’s kind of, what to do in the garden news, there’s influencer news, kind of like products of the week, plants of the week, influencer of the week and kind of all those different world.
And then we used to do plants to grow now which goes out on a Wednesday, which is tomorrow. I actually need to get that ready. And also, the weekend of a new interview series called Rooting Around. Oh yeah, which alternates with, Beneath the Glass, which is kind of like visits to growers, etc. as well.
And yeah, and it's just an insight into the industry really. And I'm enjoying kind of interviewing and in a written format of interviews. So, that is… because I feel like, you know, it's great to have a podcast, great to have a video, but also, some people like to read stuff as well.

Kate:
Yeah, I do

Michael:
Different ways that people like to digest stuff because that's about you, but I would never watch a YouTube video. I just dunno - I can't sit and watch something like that, but I would sit and read something, you know, or listen to something like a podcast, but like a video. Not necessarily.

Kate:
I do for things like tai chi and yoga.

Michael:
Okay. Yeah. But that’s more instructional I guess.

Kate:
And how to wire a plug – yeah.
So, you’re putting out a lot of content here, how do you kind of refine and decide what goes out? You know, each week. Is it just you, do you have help with this?

Michael:
Yeah. Well, I’ve got a digital assistant, and she'll put together things like Substack stuff like that. But and also, what she's really great is to bounce ideas off, because she's more of a millennial.
Which is also, good. And just kind of, sort of things like graphics and sort of like this, this and this, but generally. Well, not generally, but everything I post on social media is from me authentically.
And it's not used in a scheduling program or anything like that, but what I do use is iPhone Reminders So, I know what I'm going to post when. So, the thing is, I always stay So, calm in the moment because I know what I'm going to post when, that's the thing. So, I'm not sitting here thinking like, oh my God, I got a post about this. Because I probably sent on my it's probably tomorrow morning I'm going to put my reel out about Glee. So, I’ll sort that in the morning.
So, I’m not worrying about what to do, what to do, sort of thing. So, I'm very much like that. And I like different brands to put content together for them. And I, I'm very kind of like transparent. I'll show them the program when we're going to put it out, when probably more than they want to know sometimes. So, like for example, done a lot of work with Benary and a couple of breeder's in Germany and kind of then we know exactly what's going to go out when.
So, again, I'm not sitting there thinking, when will I get that content out, blah, blah blah. It will remind me, you know, there's probably some for Thursday evening between 5 and 6 that is then, you know, maybe the non-stop series of video that we prepared, you know, way back in July. So, it's quite set in that way. So, you can kind of then slot it in and it kind of it works for me.
So, I'm never sitting here in the moment stressing. But I run the same on my to-do list as well. I got a lot of stuff to do at the minute, but there's nothing I need to do great English there. There's nothing I need to do. I'm not even correct myself until Friday.
So, I'm here immersed in Glee.

Kate:
You’re here in the moment.

Michael:
I'm immersed in Glee, in the moment. There are things I need to do. Yeah, I'm a busy mum, but I don't need to do those things till Friday, so that's absolutely fine.

Kate:
So, you’re gonna enjoy yourself.

Michael:
And that keeps you calm. Do you know? I mean, I would really stress that to anyone. Don't do what you need to do before you need to do it. Because we often. And I will never hand in a bit of work early, but I'll also, never hand it in late. I do it when I need to do it. And that is probably, my main tip, because then you not haven't got this forever running list and it's the iPhone that helps me do that. I have to say. It's the iPhone. Because it tells me what I need to do when.

Kate:
I love it.

Michael:
And it might sound like a big thing to get into, but once you're in the practice of it, it's just there and it just happens. Honestly.

Kate:
I’m going to start doing that.

Phil:
Do you never get writer's block? Staring at a white piece of paper or blank screen and going, hmmm I'm supposed to be doing something.

Kate:
But then you've got, your plants…

Michael:
So, yeah, definitely. And also, Friday morning, like, you know, I don't want to tell you it's all roses, because Friday morning I'll be like, oh God, this is all the stuff that was waiting, and then all the reminders will come up. Oh, yeah. Now is the moment!
But no, I don't. Because the other thing that's really interesting about writer's block, let's change that wording to creator’s block. Because sometimes, you know, people give me a product or plant that I need to come up with something fun to talk about.
But the way like and that's why it is great to bounce off my digital assistant Jen, I’ll be kind of like, what's trending now? What can do with this? But it's also, why I allow myself browsing and like, don't feel guilty about just looking at social media because that is how you see what might be trending. That's how you have an idea. That kind of goes into the back of your mind, la la la. And I remember like an example of Selecta in Germany working with their pink kisses dianthus. And I'd seen I was making some content, and I'd seen like maybe during that month, like, an Indonesian plant shop doing something with kokedama, but they called it a tamandama with more than one plant In.
And I was like, oh, I will marry that idea up with what I'm doing with pink kisses. So, then yeah. So, it was like I saw that inspiration. By looking at my phone on the loo. So, it works. And if I hadn't been on the loo that day…

Kate:
You wouldn't have seen it.

Michael:
Yeah.

Phil:
So, you mentioned earlier about, your new series Rooting Around. Can you just tell us a little bit about that and about what you're hoping to achieve from that? You know what was it? What was the inspiration?

Michael:
Well do you know what Phil? I'm never looking to achieve anything. And I think that's…

Phil:
Well, maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

Michael:
I don't know, like, I just want to be happy doing what I do. I just want to enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm never really aiming for something, that's the thing.
I think the minute you're aiming for stuff, you've kind of been judging yourself all the time. You know what I mean? You just go enjoy it. And people digest it in a in a nice way when you enjoy it. I don't know, because then you're not trying to be like, oh, I must get this many likes or oh, it must be this or that.
So, I'm quite like, I don't know, like ambivalent almost. But I still enjoy it. Yeah. So, my main motivation is enjoyment even above money. When you enjoy it, the money comes because you're not then thinking about it. So, anyway, I didn't answer your question. Yeah, I'm sorry, I was too busy correcting the question. What was the question?
Rooting around. What am I looking to achieve?

Phil:
And what was the inspiration behind it?

Michael:
He’s changed his question, how cute. So, I again I think for me this is a common thing really. I want to bring together as many parts of the industry as possible because I see that they don't talk to each other. Garden designers, are there garden designers here? [at Glee]

Kate:
No.

Michael:
Are customers at breeding locations, you know. Yeah. It's like they're not. But garden designers could be here to see new materials or different ways that things are trending. Breeders could talk to consumers about what they actually want to grow in their gardens as well. But very often that is kind of past by Chinese whispers through about ten different kind of, different buyers, growers, agents, all of that.
So, I really see myself as a connector. That really is the thing. And So, Rooting Around, I'm talking like, for example, I just collected up about nine different pictures of who we talked to already this month. So, Kumara Ikram, do you know this amazing designer and connector and just I love her whole approach to it as well.
Chris Young talking about what it's like to pitch for editors because he's obviously working as a publisher. Then it was, Katharine Goldsmith, QVC presenter. What's it like to work in TV shopping kind of world? Yeah, so, that side of things that then links back through to gardening and then we've had some interviews with Kew as well about the Rock garden, the Rose garden, and kind of like, refreshing those areas.
What else did we have? Florist as well, like, European, world class florist. What it's like to do floristry competitions.

Phil:
That floristry competition you went to…

Michael:
Yeah, the Floristry World Cup.

Kate:
It looked amazing.

Michael:
It was like a rock concert.
Do you know what, Kate? What did you think as a female to that? Because for me, as a male who has grown up constantly being mocked for loving plants and feeling like I was less because of it, that sang to my heart.

Kate:
I bet. Yeah.

Michael:
Yeah, it really did.

Kate:
It's interesting because sometimes, I've always thought of floristry a bit like with cooking, like, women are the cooks, men are the chefs. Women are the home gardeners, but men have tended to be the floristry elite. So, I've always seemed floristry been a little bit dominated by men. So, I was quite, interested by what you’re saying.
So, maybe I’m just thinking of, um…

Michael:
Simon Lycett

Kate:
Simon Lycett, that’s it yeah, I often see him and I can't remember now the guy. So, I've always thought it's quite male dominated in the in the top. You know So, but obviously…

Michael:
Once you tap into a world you know.

Kate:
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Michael:
But no it's just there for me it was really like oh that feels nice.

Kate:
Yeah. No no I get, I get it, I get it.

Michael:
That was cool though. But yeah that is what we’re doing with Rooting Around I would say.

Kate:
So you have recently announced that you're getting over 1 million views per week on Instagram? What type of content seems to resonate the most on your platform?

Michael:
Oh, hydrangeas. I might as well just post about hydrangeas all week!
It's crazy isn’t it?

Kate:
They are so, popular now, who doesn't love a hydrangea?

Michael:
But do you know what? Like I've said earlier, I'm never. That was a nice figure to like. Because every So, often when you've got a cool figure like that, like, I think on Substack, I've set a reminder to talk about it next week, but, like, I like, apparently doing well with the paid subscribers. That's a good percentage of what I do.
So, and it pops up and it tells you that. So, I feel like I'm never afraid to kind of just tell people something. I don't know if that's boasting or not. I try and detach myself from it. Right. But you can't help it, especially in a LinkedIn atmosphere. You know what I mean? So, yeah. So, that's why I post about like the million.
But it's never. Never, let's say chasing that. And I really I'm always authentic to what content I want to put out. And you know and I don't get like terribly good engagement compared to like some of the influencers who are more engaged in only that. But I do a lot of real-life stuff as well, and it's kind of social media's always been my portfolio anyway, and not something where I’m looking to get that engagement. So, it was nice to see that. And that's obviously in response to the varied content that I do as well...

Phil:
Maybe you need to do more dancing in your pants if you want to get more engagement.

Michael:
Ooh la la.

Kate:
Is that what you're thinking of doing Phil?

Phil:
Oh, yeah, exactly.
So, you’re creating content for Instagram and, does that feed back into your Substack and vice versa? Do you get that crossover and cross-pollination between the two?

Michael:
Yeah. That's pretty interesting because I don't know about you offering cross pollination is hard work and your followers are happy where they're happy. My example is really probably QVC customers who tend to be also, the Facebook followers. If I've ever encouraged them to listen to a podcast, they aren't interested for toffee. Not even for fudge. No. Yeah, honestly, it's really interesting.
So, you need to interact with your followers and consumers where they are. You can't move people around. That is really the key thing. So, where they are. So, yeah, I do a bit of cross pollination in that way, but it's really is strongest where it originates. Really. Yeah, I think Substack is maybe a little bit exception because it is a new platform.
So, then people are a little bit intrigued, maybe come across there, and that is the one thing you would kind of cross-pollinate from the other platforms, I would say, but almost like coming out of another platform to Substack, not necessarily the other direction, if you know what I mean. So, yeah. Great question. Thank you.

Kate:
So, you are, deeply embedded in horticultural media, trade shows, plant development, education. I know you don't really plan - but where do you see this all taking you next?

Michael:
I don't know, I got no idea.

Kate:
That’s it, no plan.

Michael:
No, not really, because…

Kate:
Just go with it.

Michael:
I don’t know - that's how you stay dynamic and you just follow your nose, and I don’t know.

Kate:
Is there anything that..

Michael:
The worst career’s advisor ever – sorry!

Kate:
But is there anything in this kind of world that you haven't done, you haven't been that you would like to do?

Michael:
I don't really think like that. I feel like such a genetic blip sometimes I would say, I mean, I like there's been a natural pivot into industry work. And that I guess if you were going to if another question is like, you know, who, who do you see as competitors or who would you admire? I'd say no one, because I'm kind of like just carving my own path.
And I, I think that's probably why I don't have this masterplan, because I don't compare myself to anyone else, because I then just do what feels right and what I want to do. Rather than what I'm expected to do or someone then you do this and it's like, they're doing that, think of that. So, I just look at what people are like, you know what I mean?
So, yeah, I just follow my nose on it, to be honest. And that is… And that's the way I really continue. But having said that, it's been and sometimes, like I said, with the plant promotion thing, you don't always realise where you've got to until you've got there. And that's why I was like, oh, I'm a plant promoter - that makes sense.
And so, this kind of pivot into the industry has been I really like that can do more industry level work. Because yeah, it does set you apart, which is kind of obviously an important element. But also, it's interesting and I can share that with the consumer because not many people have got that look behind the curtain as it were.
So, that is pretty cool. But also, I mean, even recently, like this little pivot into floristry, it's quite interesting. It's a world I know nothing about, but there's a lot to discover.
But again, kind of I won't push myself into it if I'm pulled into it. I'll let that happen. But I won't push in. And I always feel like if you allow yourself to be pulled rather than pushed, then you know you're there for the right reasons.
Yeah. And you also, know that then the people that have got you there have got you for the right reasons, and not because you pushed into it. Do you know what I mean? So, I tend to let things have the pull factor rather than the push.

Kate:
Organic.

Michael:
Yeah, and also, you know, I'm very lucky that a lot of companies like for example, Plant Line doing the plant catwalk show earlier this year, it's like they wanted to do an event and I was then I suggested the catwalk show a la la la and said, that was fab, because then I was able to do something very different and distinctive, but under the very safe umbrella of a company working with. So, I'm quite lucky to do that. But of course, they entrust a lot in me to do that and not screw it up the same time. So, yeah. But yeah, So, I find that that's a nice way to kind of delve into new projects as well, kind of as partnerships almost, yeah.

Phil:
Have you ever discovered a plant that you've absolutely fallen in love with, maybe it's like the Holy Grail of plants…

Michael:
Everyday Phil.

Phil:
But it's proved to be a total flop.

Michael:
Oh, no. Not every day!
Oh, oh, such a good question.

Kate:
Have you ever tried to really push something: this is the next best thing, and it's just not happened.

Michael:
I think the hard sell - I'm going to answer this in a slightly different way - but the hard sell is conifers in a way, because the minute you say they're conifers, it's weird because we had this Cryptomeria Kyara Gold at the weekend when I was doing these presentations at Bailey's of Wistow, Garden Centre and near Leicester.
And as I explained this Kyara Gold, we had it on stage. It’s lovely twisted, la la la. It was great, you know, its’ a tree. And it was like, yes, it's a fantastic conifer. And there's like. And this lady in the audience, and she was like, oh I liked it until you said conifer.
What do you mean? You liked everything else about it - I don't want it is!

Kate:
Yeah, labels shouldn’t matter.

Michael:
So, I might be caught with my pants down on this, El Paso, who knows?

Kate:
Oh, right. Yeah, okay.

Michael:
So, yeah, it's really hard to answer that question because so many plants have come and gone over the years. I’ll kind of answer it in a roundabout way of like, what plants haven't kicked off that I thought would. I can't believe we don't grow more hemerocallis.

Phil:
Okay. I don't know what that is.

Kate
A daylily.

Phil:
okay. Yeah.

Michael:
So, how many available you’ve got ones that will flower pretty long time continuous blooms, 500 flowers. They’re a tough grassy plant which is very weatherproof. Pet proof as well.

Kate:
With structure.

Michael:
Yeah. So, I'm amazed that they've never kind of kicked off a bit bigger, to be honest. Also, it’s hard because then I see the reasons why they don't. But like chrysanthemums, I really want them to have the revival in the same way as Dahlias, but then they're quite complex, different ways to grow them, different styles, I guess, Dahlias, they all fit into the same kind of regime in a way. So, yeah, I feel similar about Gladioli, but we need a multi branching one, don't we?

Kate:
I love gladioli.

Michael:
But it's not much payback is it?
But I feel we got a problem sometimes we like we expect so much from plants don't we?
Especially in the UK. It's different in different… especially in the Netherlands. They're happy to throw a plant away at the end of the season. That's not a big problem to them. A plant is better, you know, composted than it is in a bin – put it that way.

Kate:
Yeah. True. It’s dying in your border and…

Michael:
Yeah, definitely. So, I'd say that. Yeah. Plants that I feel have never had the big woo that they deserve yet.

Phil:
Excellent. Michael we're going to wrap things up now. So, have you got any final thoughts or hopes for the rest of your time here at Glee?

Michael:
I don't know, I just love it. I love walking around looking at new products. I don't limit myself to where I wonder as well, because you don’t know what inspiration you’re going to see, it's incredible. Yeah. Of course I'm not a furniture expert, but who knows what you can see there. And ideas that spark, I think, like we close our minds too much sometimes, but just look at everything. You never know what idea you’re going to have. And also, share your ideas. Get them out there in the ether. But you know what I mean? Because if the idea happens, whether I did it or not, I haven’t got time to do all my ideas, you know? So, just share with people, you know, just chat to people, be open. That's the thing. And that'll be open in return. And yeah, that's it really.

Kate:
Lovely.

Michael:
Just have a nice time. Put that on a t shirt.

Kate:
Just have a nice time. That should be my motto for life. Yeah.

Michael:
Or, I've wet my plants.

Phil:
Listen to. Thank you So, much, Michael, for coming to talk to us today.

Michael:
Thank you.

Phil:
It’s been a really lovely chat.

Kate:
At the end of a long day.

Michael:
Oh, that was lovely. Thank you.

Phil:
I'm here with, Joe Denham from, Gardenex. Joe, can you just give us a little bit of information about what Gardenex actually is?

Joe:
Absolutely. We are a federation that helps British garden businesses to export. So, for Glee in particular, we've had a long standing relationship where we bring in international buyers and we run a series of Meet the buyer presentations here. So, our members can come to the stand to the booth and meet overseas buyers. It's been really successful.
Glee have been extremely supportive. We've had a relationship with them going back many, many years. We just help British businesses to export, that’s what we do.

Phil:
Okay, that sounds really interesting. So, how are things going this year at Glee?

Joe:
Excellent. We've had a really good response to our Meet the Buyer events, they’re absolutely full. We've heard some great deals going on between, the buyers and the sellers, and that's what we're here for. So, it's been really, really successful.

Phil:
And are there any particular markets that you’re focusing on is that like European or the States, or…

Joe:
It's all markets. We obviously, we organise exhibitions in the British pavilions abroad, shows like GAFA and there used to be the National Hardware Show in America, all over and we obviously look after gardening businesses and the other side of our federation. We look after pet businesses with Petquip. So, we do pet shows and again organise those British pavilions abroad as well.

Phil:
So, Glee and garden centres in general are So, much more than just gardening nowadays. So, do you cover the whole gamut of what’s sold in a garden centre, or do you really focus in on the garden care products?

Joe:
Normally our members are, you know, traditionally in the solidly in the garden sundries area. So, it might be anybody from Burgon and Ball, down, you know, across the whole gamut of product ranges. We also, run the CHA, the Commercial Horticultural Association for Agritech type products as well. So, we span a whole range of product product categories, if you like.

Phil:
And is there a particular size of, business that you would, would say you work with or is it. I mean, because there are an awful lot of like start-ups and little companies here. Are these the sorts of businesses that you'd be happy to talk to.

Joe:
Oh, 100%. I mean, we are really, really very good. We used to run the Tap grant system to help them get grants from the government to just dip their toe in exporting. It's the early starters, the people who've never exported before but want to know first steps on which shows to do and just get that advice. We can support them and do that. But we also, have obviously major members, and in fact, we have a patron package that, some of the bigger companies within our industry will pay a little bit more to us to replace our old government funding. So, we have Auto Pot and Veg Trug have come on board. Just So, they are showing that they're helping smaller Start-Up businesses in the category to export. So, it's all about helping British business and it doesn't matter what the size is.

Phil:
That sounds fantastic. I’d just like to wish you all the best for the rest of the show. And, good luck.

Joe:
Thank you very much. Nice to speak to you.

Phil:
We are joined here by Paul Oliver from Urban Nature Store in Canada.

Paul:
I'm So, happy to be here. And, both on the, on the broadcast as well as, at the show. It's been fabulous so far.

Kate:
Lovely. Welcome, welcome.

Phil:
So Paul, why don't we start with, you telling us what's brought you to Glee this year?

Paul:
I love to go to trade shows. Because they actually give us the insights as to new products. We're always looking for innovative new, products for our customers, things that will address customer needs, or even a lot of things that customers never thought were possible that we can actually, put in front of them in our stores.
This year, we came to Glee because we're actually refocusing our buying patterns away from the United States. There's someone in Washington that keeps saying he wants to take over Canada. And I can tell you, our Canadian customers are looking for new international, supply chains and new products from elsewhere in the world.
And, and the world is getting smaller, and so, we can bring in a lot of new products easily and efficiently from anywhere in the world. And, UK being a former colony of the UK, we're very familiar with things in, here.

Kate:
So, what would, success at Glee look like to you? New contacts, new suppliers, new clients?

Paul:
A combination of, a lot of things. Finding new products - definitely. Finding new, reliable supply chain partners that we can work with, whether they're based in the UK or they're based elsewhere in the world. That we can turn to and say, even if we have a new product we want to develop and we can find a supplier that will work with us to help develop it as part of that. But also, it's just going and seeing how things are displayed. We're so used to in Canada mimicking US retailing. But we've got such a global population in Toronto and in Canada that how you market in the UK, how you display things, even… One of the things in addition to going to the show here, I love to go to retail stores. I love to walk grocery stores, see how products are being displayed. How customers are being served, how they're interacting with customers.
To provide that new innovation in Canada. Because we have fallen into a little bit of that trap of just mimicking the US companies. So far we've met lots of new suppliers and potential suppliers, here at the show. And this is the first day. So, we’re only a small part way through the show.

Kate:
Are you here for all three days?

Paul:
Yes, we're here for all three days.

Phil:
Right. Fantastic. So, you mentioned that you're here. It's the first day, and we're only partway through the afternoon. Can you give us your first impressions of the show and how does it compare with, like, the events in North America?

Paul:
So, far, I found much more diverse exhibitors.
At the show here and in it, like, even the area where they're actually talking about food in garden centres, most the time when you go to a trade show in North America, it's dry goods or it's hard goods or it's this, it's fertilisers and very few that actually talk about the customer experience.
There are several exhibitors here that are displaying greeting cards and socks and food and…

Phil:
Giftware.

Paul:
Giftware and that's one of the things that the Urban Nature Store we try to, really focus on, is people come to our stores on a regular basis to buy birdseed. That's their regular thing - sort of back to the old equation: you sell them the razor because they're going to keep buying the blades.
We get them buying the bird seed, but they come into the store every week or every two weeks, adding kids toys, adding socks, adding books, adding a whole bunch of these other things that people say, hey, what a great idea. And when you walk around Glee, you're actually seeing a whole bunch of things and you're saying: hey, what a great idea.
I never thought of doing that.

Phil:
That's brilliant.

Paul:
And, and that's where… the most obvious thing I've seen here at Glee is that integration of it is not just a gardening show. It's not just gardening products.

Kate:
Not at all.

Paul:
It’s everything that you could put into a garden centre and stuff that you would never have thought of putting in a garden centre.

Phil:
I mean, I think that's something that's happened over the last few years. That garden centres have - through necessity, really - had to diversify and they've become destinations in their own right. I think this show is testament to that.

Kate:
Especially food. You never would have seen food before, and even it is still quite a small percentage of what is on the show. But it's so important now in garden centres.

Paul:
Yeah. Who would have thought there'd be 3 or 4 different exhibitors showcasing coffee because it's part of that lifestyle. People aren't going out if they just want a shovel, they can go on online and order it. If they're going to a garden centre or a birding store or any type of speciality store, they're looking for an experience. They're looking to see new things. They're looking to see how products go together. And one of the things we're finding is because we're a smaller store there are lots of people that are buying gifts that want to come in because it's not a big store. They don't want to be overwhelmed by going aisle after aisle after aisle, they like to go to smaller stores, be able to browse.
It's more interactive. They can pick up products, they can see it out of the box. And just the small suppliers sector here, is so, active, like it's cosmetics, it's lotions. It's all the things that small stores can sell, while they're selling a bag of soil or while they're selling a bag of birdseed.

Kate:
So, tell us a little bit about the natural urban… is the right? Urban Nature Store. So, it's in Canada. So, obviously most of our listeners probably won't be too aware of you. So, just tell us a little bit about the business.

Paul:
Well, as we say, we're sort of the Canada's birding store. And, we're based in Toronto. And we have stores around Ontario. And, we started about 22 years ago or so. And our core product is, is bird seed. We go through a tractor trailer or tractor trailer and a half a week of bird seed. We sell a lot of it.
But one of the things we actually do is, is really promote additional things. So, when people come into the store, they can actually as for Christmas time, we actually promoted as, nature inspired gifts for every generation. So, whether you're buying for grandpa or the newborn, there's something that's nature inspired and it’s jewellery, and it's birding products, and it's binoculars, and it's books, and it's educational. It's interactive toys for kids. And, so it's a little bit for everyone, but generally what we find is people that are interested in birding and in gardening are interested in nature. They're interested in in getting their grandchildren off their iPads and actually interacting. One of the most popular things that we sell are kits that grandparents can build with their kids, building a birdhouse, decorating the birdhouse.
And the kids are great because all of a sudden they build something that put a bird feeder out, and ten minutes later they see birds using it. It's not like some game they're playing on Game Boy type of thing - dating myself - but it's that interaction with nature and like a nature guides where kids go out and they can identify animals and identify birds, and they compete with their brothers and sisters. Oh, I saw a robin. Oh I saw two sparrows, and different things like that, so…

Phil:
Fantastic. So, what makes the Canadian customer unique? So, when it comes to garden and wildlife products, is that something that they're looking for, that maybe you don't see elsewhere?

Paul:
I think it's the ethnic diversity of the Canadian consumer, and this is the thing: As we've stepped back as a company to try to re-examine what we're delivering to customers - American, United States is much more of a homogeneous society where everyone sort of matches and conforms. In Canada, we promote the multicultural heritage where people, whether they're from India, Thailand, Japan, Europe, UK, they've come to Canada, they have different expectations in retail. They have different, goals. And so one of the things traditionally, wild birding in Canada has been looked at is it's a traditional northern European background and people that are interested. But what we found particular coming out of Covid is when people were locked down into Covid, all of a sudden people that hadn't really spent a lot of time looking out the window notice that in their backyard they've got birds, or when they've got the bright yellow birds and they've got robins and they've got blue jays, and then all of a sudden they want to explore, how do I interact with them? Do they all eat the same thing? Do they all feed at the same feeder? And so, as we were coming out of Covid, we were noticing a much more ethnically diverse composition visually of our customers. And, and it was just that the, the hobby or the birding in general had expanded so much.
And, even… I spent a lot of time speaking to gardening societies. And I've done this for 20 years talking about birding and how it interacts with gardening. And the one thing I've noticed is it's changed from, an older white woman hobby to it's got a lot more men involved in it. And it's got a lot more younger people involved in it. And it's got a much more ethnically diverse group out there. And, and that's one of the things I find in Canada is, that we're marketing to a much wider and broader, potential clientele. And, in our traditional old marketing things, we're just, oh, this is the group that's interested in birding, not what group will be interested in birding tomorrow.

Phil:
And so has that changed the way you speak to, you know, how you’re presenting yourselves?

Paul:
Yes. So, what we and that's partly of - well, someone may be interested in birding but not have the room to put a feeder out, but they're interested in buying a pair of binoculars and going out hiking. Or just a bird guide so they can identify the birds that are out there Or, so, more things, it's not just bird seed and bird feeders that we sell. And what I always find is when customers walk into their store and say, oh, I came here to buy… Oh, my God, I didn't know you had all these things. Wow. This is really interesting. And even… so, I made the comment earlier about kids playing on their iPhone, but part of it is, well, that's how kids learn. So, the Merlin app that helps you identify birds by just listening to the sound.

Phil:
Yes, I have that on my phone.

Paul:
And it's a great way, that's the first step into it. And then once they do that, then they want a pair of binoculars so that they can spot the bird easier. And then they want hiking boots, and they want hiking gear and that. And so, everyone has a different pathway into wild birding. And I think going back 20 years ago or 25 years when we founded the company, it was, well, we just need to sell to people that are birders.
We need to sell today to tomorrow's birders as well. And that's the biggest marketing change I've, noticed in the last since Covid, but also, just in observing the industry.

Kate:
It's interesting, in the UK we don't call it birding, but anyway, the demographic is definitely white male.

Phil:
Definitely those that go out to photograph and out in the field

Kate:
I think twitchers are what they’re called.

Phil:
Maybe the people at home in their back gardens, I think that will be more gender balanced.

Kate:
Yeah, I suppose so.

Paul:
And that's part of it - we sort of say those that like to go out in the field and watch birds are men, and those that feed at home are female.

Kate:
That's true.

Paul:
But one of the things that we've actually noticed, one of the trends that we focus on; is with people retiring earlier or living longer and being healthier and much more active. It's become very much a couple’s activity to both maintain the bird feeder and make sure it's filled, so that when the robin shows up, there's food. But also, going into the field. And so, we get a lot of couples that come in and it's their joint purchase together, and they're both buying a pair of binoculars, but they have different expectation. He's looking for a powerful one. He doesn't care about the weight. She's looking for a more lightweight one because she knows just after walking five kilometres, she doesn't want to be carrying the heavy thing. So, it's trying to offer a wider range because everyone is at a different point on that journey of birding.

Kate:
Are there any, trends or customer shifts that are driving demand for new products?

Paul:
People always want something new and our high-tech industry is the newest iPhone or than the shiniest the newest iPhone and that, so people expect that. Basically, if you get a good feeder, you don't need to change it. But people want to change it because they want to get specialised. They want to get finches as opposed to just chickadees or robins.
So, there is a segment of the market that is always looking for something that's new and bright and shiny. And so, we want to deliver that to them, but we also, want to make sure that our traditional customers that expect high quality fresh bird seed can come in and get high quality fresh bird seed. But the other thing that we've noticed in Canada, in particular in the Toronto market, is the expectation of size differences.
So, when they're buying a bag of bird seed, some people want to buy a 50lb bag and they can go through it pretty quickly, or they've got they've lived in the suburbs, and they've got lots of room for it. As we've gotten younger customers that may be living in condominiums or apartments or smaller flats, they're looking to come more frequently.
But smaller bags, and sometimes they like to just get the smaller bag because it means they come more frequently, and they interact with them. And so, one of the promotions we've started at the at the store is a senior’s day once a month, but it's a senior’s day for anyone that likes birding. So, no age limit on it. And its refreshments we put out. And, and what we find is people like to come to that just to meet other birders. And they like that interaction and because a lot of times their social activities are social media. They don't interact with people directly. So, we've been adding walks where at this local store or the Kingston store, they have a walk and they may get 25 people out. And it's a way for them: Oh, hey, I didn't know you were into birding. Oh. And, and, that they're looking at it more as a social interaction activity.

Phil:
Yeah, so that's community building.

Paul:
It's the community building. Yes.

Phil:
Excellent. You're saying that people are looking for newness and things like that, and you're here looking for innovation. Is there anything that's caught your eye since you've been here? I know it's still the first day.

Paul:
Oh, there are lots of things. Some of it is new products. Some of it's the better way of explaining products. And sometimes it's just rethinking products to make them easier to clean a feeder, or to keep it healthier for a bird, the recycled plastic birdhouses that have liners in them, you can take out every season, you then don't need to worry about bacteria or disease or anything like that.
So, a variety of taking basic things and making them more interactive or easier for the customer, instead of having to get out a whole bunch of detergent to clean the bird house, they're able to just take the liner out and away they go.

Kate:
So, have you seen a difference between, the products on show here in the UK and, back home?

Paul:
Some, some difference is probably the biggest difference I see here is a much more awareness of impact on the environment.

Kate:
Ah okay, so sustainability.

Paul:
The sustainability and the products that are rated with sustainability. I was at a seminar earlier where people were presenting products. And one of the questions that kept popping up, well, is the wood certified? At very few shows in North America, do those questions. They're starting to, but you’re probably ten years before where the customer consumer, is on - the consumer wants to know this - sometimes the consumer understands it, sometimes they don't understand it, but they're relying on the retailer to make sure that they're not, greenwashing, the certification or that, but that it's a legitimate organisation that has done it and it helps them feel good about it.
In particular, in a field like gardening where your customer is very in tune with the environment. It's an important step. And so, that's probably the biggest thing that I noticed between Glee and, other shows that I've been to.

Kate:
Okay, that's interesting.

Phil:
So, Paul, can you give us your, top tip for what, people at home can do to help wild birds?

Paul:
Feed them.

Phil:
That's as simple as that.

Paul:
Yeah. The there are lots of things they can do, but, because we have such a big migration of birds at this time of the year, I always, keep reminding people: make sure if they've got a feeder out there, it's full and it's got lots of fatty foods. They're not going to Jenny Craig at this time of the year. They're trying to fatten up for the winter to overwinter or to migrate, and to use good quality, bird seed. There's nothing worse than putting a whole bunch of fillers into the bird seed because it, it looks like the feeder, or the bag is full. Whereas the, the bird’s getting very little nutrients out of it, spend a bit more put out good quality food and you'll get a lot more birds.
We do it for two reasons. We feed birds to help the bird, and we also, feed birds because it makes us feel good.

Kate:
It makes us feel good? Yeah.

Paul:
It makes us feel good that we're helping the birds and makes us feel good that we're relaxing, enjoying them. I say there's nothing. Nothing better than on a wintery day sitting in your front window or your kitchen window, staring out, watching 3 or 4 birds eat the food and help themselves to it. It's relaxing. And I think during Covid, that was what people found was it was a very good way to interact and get out of the home, go walk in a park, watch the birds, listen to the birds.

Kate:
We have, the RSPB in the UK does a big garden Birdwatch where everyone watches birds over a weekend and marks how many? So, they can keep an eye on the population. Do you have anything like that in Canada?

Paul:
Yeah, we have, the, Audubon Society, through Cornell University. They co-sponsor it. But it's, to do a bird count and they do it, in the fall, they do one in the spring, and then they also, do one over the Christmas holidays. And it's a great activity for people to do, but it's even a better one for families to do because the kids can become pretty competitive. I counted up more birds than you did!

Kate:
Yep. I get that one.
So, you mentioned diversifying away from US suppliers. We did speak a little bit about the reasons, how is that shaping your current, sourcing strategy?

Paul:
Well, we've, taken a very active role in diversifying our suppliers. Traditionally what we found was, because there was very little border issues between Canada and the US. A lot of distributors, whether they were making the product in the US or bringing it in from abroad, they were landing it in the US and supplying Canada and Mexico from that.
But now when they're landing that product and they're paying a 25 or 35 or 40 or 50% tariff, depending on whether someone's in a good mood that day or not, that cost gets passed on to us. And so, we're working with suppliers that we have now that will land product directly into Canada. And then the next step we're doing is actually reaching out and working with suppliers where we'll actually bring the product to Canada.
And so, one of the things we're doing is adding a little bit more warehouse space to our Toronto location So, that we can actually bring the larger shipments in. We can actually process the products, store a bit more there. And, working with logistics companies, whether they're bringing product from through Liverpool here into Canada for us or through, different ports in China.
And so, even some of the suppliers we're talking to here at the show that bring products globally to, England, we're talking to them about. Okay, well, we'll pick it up wherever your factory is and bring it straight to Canada. It reduces the tariff. And one of the feedback we've gotten from customers is the president in the United States around the world isn't overly popular in most places. In Canada when he keeps talking about taking over Canada, as his 51st State, we can't sell a lot of American products because of the blowback from Canadian consumers, they're outraged, it's sort of like going through a divorce that's really, really messy. You were together for so many years, and then all of a sudden one partner says, oh, they're tired of you.
And so, we get a lot of questions of what products are not American.
And so, we've, we've tackled it two ways. One, we've worked with a lot of small manufacturers in Canada to make products, that custom make them for us that we've been able to substitute products for. And then we're also, at shows like Glee, looking for global partners that will be reliable and, a lot of our suppliers that we work with in the US are wonderful people themselves.
But they don't know whether they're going to be hit with a 50% tariff or 25% tariff. They're panicking as much as we are. But by working with a partner in the UK where we have a Canadian UK free trade agreement, we know what the certainty is there. We're dealing with adults in the room that know exactly what it's going to be in ten years.
So, you can plan next year's buying. You can plan for five years buying, you can't do that with the uncertainty in the trade situation right now dealing with the, our partners south of the border.

Phil:
So, there's definitely an opportunity there. What can, UK or European businesses do to help fill that gap, do you think?

Paul:
Probably the biggest thing, would be actually identifying supply chains that Canadian suppliers or customers know with the certainty of it's going to be this cost 10% shipping or 5% shipping or whatever it is, or that they already have figured out a reliable supply chain. We - partly because of my background - have a pretty good idea on how to do that. Some of our other supply chain, issues over the years, I've developed some expertise in that field, So, I'm able to do that. A lot of my other, business colleagues that I talk to, whether it's in the lawn and garden business or in other retail businesses, don't know how to do that. So, they're saying they're sitting in Toronto and they're saying, we'd love to find a new supplier in Europe or a new supplier in the UK. But I don't even know how to get the product from there to here.
And, and So, UK suppliers that develop that expertise or say we have a pathway or we know the exact way to do that, or we can ship it and it lands in Toronto in five days. You can do that.
Like we started doing this with, one of the UK companies, Hawk Optics. It was the first time we had actually started buying good volume of a highly – an expensive product. And that relationship has worked out fabulous. We can place the order, it's in our warehouse in 48 hours. So, we can restock quicker now than we can from some of our US, optic suppliers.
But that was because Hawk had decided they were going to figure out how to do it, and they came to us and they said, we know how to do it. And we said, great, we want to buy your product.

Kate:
So, in the UK every year, the ribbon is voted as our favourite bird. Do you have that in Canada? Is there a favourite bird?

Paul:
We have a national bird. And, and that one of the most popular ones is, is the Loon.

Kate:
The Loon, OK.

Paul:
And that's in, in Ontario.

Phil:
And can you describe that for me?

Paul:
It's a water bird. But he has a very, very unique call. So, anyone that goes to cottage country in Canada is familiar with a loon, because he'll be out there early in the morning when the haze is still over the lake. howling away. But probably our most popular is a Cardinal. Because he's bright, he's red. And he stays for the winter. And there's nothing better than seeing him on a background of white snow on a birch tree with no leaves and two of them sitting up there.

Kate:
So, that'll be on your Christmas cards. We have Robins. Robins on Christmas cards. So, in Canada, you'll see the cardinal.

Paul:
You'll see a cardinal on almost every Christmas card that has a bird featured.

Kate:
Yeah, like a robin. Wonderful. Thank you so much Paul.

Paul:
It's been my pleasure.

Phil:
Thank you. Paul, really appreciate your time.

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The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, So, my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.