Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now. As well as recording 20 interviews, Kate and I ventured out of our recording booth to gain some insights from exhibitors on the show floor.
This episode is a live recording of a no-holds barred Q&A session with Alan Roper, the managing director of the country’s most successful garden centre chain right now. I was honoured to host the packed-out session on the Hyve stage at Glee - and put the questions to Alan that had been submitted by various people from across the industry.

So, Alan, thank you so much for joining us. This morning I'm going to start with a really easy one, hopefully. Did you ever think out the outset that the Blue Diamond chain would, or could have become quite as big as it is today?

Alan:
Yes.

Phil:
It was your intention all the way along, was it?

Alan:
Yes. Yeah. I set out to establish a garden centre group, back in 1999. I was going to do that under, I won't bore you today, but there's a backstory: I was going to do that with, a Tory MP and some private equity. But politicians and private equity don't get on. So, I came across Blue Diamond. That was back then it was 6.7 million and losing money. But it was something to work with. And so, our growth has been organic, just growing with the cash that you generate, not based on debt, which is a key factor. And I've been doing the same for 26 years. So, you get an opportunity. The first opportunity was 2001.
That was a leasehold because we didn't have any money. And you just keep building the cash and as it gets bigger and it meets opportunities, you can do more. And then I guess the step change was 2017 when we were 97 million. And then we had 16 Wyevales, so that, accelerated and then I forget how many did between that and the three Dobbies’.
But I always had this vision, and I made a promise to myself that I would stick to my vision, and I wouldn't deviate from it. And, if I failed, I only had myself to blame. It's hard if you fail because you couldn't stay true to your own convictions and you listened to too many voices. Which didn't make me always easy to work with, particularly in the early years.
But when you build the church and you define your religion. I'm not religious, just this is a useful analogy. When people join you, they kind of get it and they sign up, and then you get this very good glue that there is in the team of, over 5000 people now.

Phil:
Wow. It's amazing. So, you say you've had this long-term vision, but the sector is, rapidly changing with, sustainability demands and shifting customer demographics. If you were starting out again today, what would you do differently and what advice would you give yourself? And maybe the next generation of garden centre, retail leaders?

Alan:
So, this is going to sound arrogant. I wouldn't do anything differently. I guess because of where we are. Which, you know, it worked. My advice to people, in business, I'm very creative, you know, I do a lot with the design and the look and feel and the retailing, but I'm also, a mechanic, so I’m very commercial with the numbers.
And so, if you're going to develop a business, don't get carried away by the froth and the excitement: “We bought another garden centre and we've now got X amount.” That is not what it's about. It's about building a culture, a team, a relationship with your customers and having people in the engine room making sure that every step of the way that you're profitable and that you have the cash and that you can do what you want to do with the cash that's in the bank, not over leveraging yourself and getting carried away with, you know, oh, I've got 60 or 70 garden centres. It's not about the number of garden centres. It's about the quality of the turnover.
I mean, we've got 51 centres and we'll get close to 400 million in the days of Wyevale, and George might be able to help me out here. But they had about 130 odd centres doing on average 2 million, a centre. There were like £270 - 280 million, close to £300.
You've got 130 odd problems, you know, 130 odd potential challenges and issues where I've got 51 delivering £400 million. So, for me, it's consistency and being sure footed and growth not for growth’s sake.

Phil:
Okay. So, within the industry as a whole and garden centres, succession is a really hot topic. Looking to see who's going to take over when the current, owners are ready to retire. You've always made no secret of positioning yourself as that safe pair of hands to take over and look after the legacy of these businesses that aren't necessarily going to be passed to the next generation.
You're the driving force behind Blue Diamond, you're the face of Blue Diamond. What's the succession plan for when you retire?

Alan:
Oh, well, there isn't one! I do a bit of grooming.

Phil:
Okay. I'm not sure you should be saying that.

Alan:
No. So I am grooming a few people in the business, they don't know, they're being groomed, but they are. It's not. You know, for now, my focus is on, is continuing to run the business because I still enjoy it. You know, up my vitamin doses to keep myself fit and young. So I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about retirement, but for me, if you've got a business that's got good DNA, good culture, you've got a team that feel that they have a pride in their individual centres, whether it's Van Hague's or Barton Grange, which is just built, or Grosvenor or Bridgemere, and you've got that ownership
culture in the centres, and then you've got this sort of I've got eight number two's well, seven because I kind of oversee the restaurants, so I have a head of plants, and a head of gardening, and had a home, and a head of fashion. So rather than this corporate structure where you have an operations director and, and a CEO, and you have this sort of one person covering all of those diverse retail spaces, you're never going to succeed because how can someone add value to fashion and plants? It's two different skill sets. And so, if one of my pillars fail the other six… So, I guess what I'm saying that in the future, one day in the future, when I decide to retire, I believe that the DNA and the values and the structure of the company will carry on because of all the foundations that I’ve built.

Phil:
Right. So, you've put things in place, you're working on it. You're seeing who's around and you're going to crown a successor.

Alan:
Yea, and I don’t have to disappear. I can still be around with a light touch keeping an eye on it.

Phil:
Yeah. And you see that coming from within, you're not going to bring someone in?

Alan:
I think it has to come from within.

Phil:
Interesting. So, you mentioned there some of the big names that you've taken over. Like centres like Boston Grange. How do you strike that right balance between efficiencies of scale (you said you're now at 51 centres) and preserving each centre's heritage and that community connection that they have.

Alan:
Well, they're not you know, they're not exclusive. I mean, having efficiencies. I mean, you know, I can go into every garden centre in the company in the country and you'll find Evergreen and you'll find Westland and you'll find the same nurseries. So, efficiencies doesn't come into it. In terms of being a barrier, to a centre retaining its independence.
And if you talk about Barton Grange, which is probably, you know, it's the most expensive garden centre I’ve ever bought because it's the most profitable. But really, that business, if you took away the people in that business, you're just left with a pretty nice building. That's not worth the price tag. It's all about the people, the DNA in that centre.
And what I do is I don't take ownership away. Now, some people who were buying the product will lose, that role in terms of buying and meeting suppliers. But they won't lose their influence because we do regionalise certain things. But they, still, in many cases, whether it's Frost's or Barton Grange, there's actually… they find themselves having more ownership, more decision making in the departments because I strive to give people ownership. And the only way you can do that is by giving them commercial visibility with the numbers. So, we have a benchmarking system that's based on conversion profit conversion per customer.

Phil:
And that's benchmarking across the whole of the…

Alan:
The whole of the group. Anyone could be number one, whether you're a 5 million or a 16 million, turnover. And they get to see each other's figures. And if their conversion rate is lower, they can drill in and within two minutes they’ll realise, that actually they weren't backing hydrangeas, which is the number one genus in plants right now. Which is the case at Wilton. We pointed it out. They had a look. They found they didn't have the varieties, didn't have the right volumes, didn't have it in the right place. And retailing’s about having the right product in the right place at the right time, in the right commitment. That's all it is.
And they can make those decisions. And you get this ownership and competitive. So, I'm not like Gerry Anderson. Do you remember him?

Phil:
Oh yeah. The Thunderbirds.

Alan:
Thunderbirds.

Phil:
Right, got you.

Alan:
We're not pulling strings. We cut the strings, and we get them ownership. There's no group operations person walking around and trying to be the big guy and lord it over them. If they’re converting. We can see it, and they don't get any visits at all. So, they retain that sense of Barton Grange. The name remains. Eddy Topping, the founder remains on the bench and that DNA that's so, so special. I mean, Barton Grange was probably of all the centres, without exception, the team in there, are so united and so customer centric and so proud of that business. The you have to protect that.

Phil:
Right. And so, when you take over a centre like that, do you sheep dip them into the ways of Blue Diamond?

Alan:
Sheep dip?

Phil:
Well - guide them into your religion so that they take on how you like things done.

Alan:
Yeah we sit with them and explain and give them the opportunity; to see other people's figures and we train them how to use the figures, and we leave them alone and let them get on with it. And, if they are passionate and committed, they love it.
But if, like a lot of the teams that were in the Wyevales and some of the Dobbies, where they prefer to hide into a broom cupboard all day, because they were allowed to, then that kind of, you know, doesn't work. And so, you have to kind of say there's another retailer down there that you might be more suited to. Because what we want is passion and ownership and commitment and energy. And, you know, 5000 people and they have it.

Phil:
Fantastic. So, Blue Diamond has grown into a true destination centre, with food, fashion and leisure all part of an overarching ofeer, how do you see horticulture, plants and growing media - I wonder where this question came from - growing media, behind all of that fitting into your model, for the future?

Alan:
Well, it's been fitting in for the past 26 years. So, look, I think it's important to get the balance right. I'm not in favour of concessions. I think they're the worst. I mean, you know, I remember when we took over the Wyevales, there was WHSmith in there, and a Costa Coffee. And I thought I'd walked into an airport or something.
So, concessions I think generally are bad news, but the mix that we have works. I think the challenge really is where is that next new profit centre. We're kind of working slowly each year. We're working on well-being and we're bringing well-being products in, and we're having success with that. And there'll be a critical point where we developed enough SKUs that are working that we’ll turn that into a well-being department.
Because that kind of fits with the whole concept.

Phil:
Demographic.

Alan:
Yeah, demographics. So, what you listed we've been doing for 26 years and fashion works, but that only works because, my PA worked in fashion for 20 years before she had children and said, you're too good to be my PA you should run fashion. And so, all of the fashion, are our own creations, it's nobody else's clothing. They go to the factories, they choose the materials, they do the cut and the designs themselves, and they produce their own product. It's just a unique black swan moment. You can't replicate it. But it works very well, I think I’ve digressed there, but…

Phil:
That's all right. We were talking about plants and the horticulture side of the business, and horticulture is in your DNA really isn't it?

Alan:
Yeah, five years in horticulture college. We work hard with the plants. We're going to do a lot this year with the range and trying to evolve the range and, and, push harder on, on certain genuses and trends. It's very key and important that we're credible in plants.

Phil:
Right. So, the next question is looking at the next generation of gardeners. And I had a couple of people, who sent in questions to do with this. So, garden centres have to balance being places of expertise, experience and leisure all at the same time. Looking ahead, what do you see the biggest change you'll need to make to connect meaningfully with the next generation of customers? And what role do you feel that young people in horticulture can play in helping Blue Diamond?

Alan:
Right. We'll start with the first part. So, a long time ago in the 90s, when I was in, garden centres back then, I used to look at the age of the people coming through the door, and I said to myself, what happens when they all die?
Because they were all in, like late 60s, 70s. Even, I mean, 30 odd years ago, the demographic was…

Phil:
High.

Alan:
It was high, the average was very high. Since then because we focus on more AB customers. So, we get the stay-at-home mothers. We've lowered the demographic, which brought them into the garden centres. So, it is better. But really, apart from that, without doing anything, everybody knows, here, that when you start out in life, it's about drinking, probably, you know, having sex, getting married, having children, you're not really interested in the garden. But as you children leave, you get engaged with nature. It's a known thing. And you get engaged with your garden and people steadily start connecting with their garden.
And that's happened for the past 40 years. You get these waves of generations that come into gardening in terms of connecting with younger. It's all through the house plants. And we've got some… you know, if I look at our house plant areas, we've got a lot of young, people that work in them, and some of them go on their own volition on Instagram. And I think if you're going to connect with the young audience, the best place to do it is through the houseplants, because, you know, they're not really in the garden, but they're into their houseplants, whether they're students, whether it is staying at home. And once you get them sort of nurturing a plant, and we've relaunched our Acorn gardening program, where we're, putting Acorn Gardening Club for pre-school children.
And getting them connected, so it becomes…

Phil:
So it’s more community type activities.

Alan:
So, we're doing… how many sites? We're doing six. And when we get those running, we're going to roll it out across the whole group. So, I think that's a good thing to do. Houseplants. And I think we need to do more of that with our young people in the houseplant areas, messaging houseplants to the younger generation. That's a way to kind of awaken their interest.

Phil:
Yeah. So there is still quite a reluctance for young people to come into stores. They're buying online a lot.

Alan:
I wouldn't worry about it.

Phil:
You're not worrying?

Alan:
Why are you so worried about it?

Phil:
I'm not worried about it.

Alan:
I wouldn't be worried about it, honestly. I mean, when I look at, you know, I'm always interested in, like, for, like, growth and at the moment our like, for, like, footfall is it's still increasing. And at the moment, generationally, people get into gardening. There's always a bit more you can do. But I think you do it in the way that I said, but, you know, you can't just, subtly, you know, come up with a strategy to drag young people into a garden centre. But, you know, one of the things I go back to probably Van Hague's, Van Hague's had the massive Christmas and it goes back generations. I remember my mother years ago taking me there from Newmarket all the way, it's about an hour's drive, and kids coming in to garden centres through Christmas is a good thing to kind of get them feeling about… which we've always done, but then there's other interests. There's all the things I listed that I missed out on as a youth!
So, you know, then they do all these other things, but they will eventually come back to you. But at the moment, the garden centre industry is a great place to be. It's a well-loved industry, very much part of the community, which we do. We work with all the garden centres work with the local community, support local charities, you know, sponsor fetes. And work… It’s very important that the garden centre should do that. And all our centres do that. So, it's families, garden centres. It's always there, they’ll always visit. And when you consider the average garden centre, 50% of what it sells has got nothing to do with gardening. It's not… you know, they will engage in other areas.

Phil:
Okay. So, we're going to change the subject slightly. Now after the demise of Gardman, we saw a lot of garden centres move away from big companies ranging multiple product categories, post-Covid, that trend seems to have reversed a little. What's the future for a specialist one category manufacturer within the garden industry?

Alan:
You’re talking about Gardman?

Phil:
Gardman?

Alan:
Yeah, well that should have disappeared. But you know, we used to deal with Gardman. In fact, I got so annoyed about it. This is long time ago because I used to send reps in doing the orders. And you got no point of difference. I replaced Gardman before it disappeared voluntarily with seven different suppliers, just to get a point of difference.
And anyone in this industry, which is why we come to this show, it's really important that you put a point of difference in your centre. It’s hard in gardening, but it's worth fighting for. So, I don't see Gardman as going as being a problem. And I would like to see more smaller gardening business at this show. I'd like to see the show incentivising so they can afford to come here, rather than expanding in the way that they are. Where I can see furniture, Solex and there's a pet show. You don't necessarily need to see it here. I'd like to see deeper, more suppliers in gardening and more affordability to bring them in.
And I think it's small suppliers, UK suppliers, having an ability to connect with garden centres and drive that forward rather than the big suppliers is a good thing.

Phil:
Okay. So that leads me nicely onto my next question is, as a small but growing distributor with a portfolio of great products, we're keen to understand what garden centres value most from their suppliers beyond the obvious great margins and low minimum order quantities. So once the product is listed, what three pieces of advice would you give to help meet expectations, add genuine value and build lasting relationships with retailers so that they can grow successfully together?

Alan:
Innovation. It’s the big one. A bit of just… innovate fresh, new, so we can continually, deliver a point of difference and have an additional profit centre. So, for example - any other retailers in the room, ignore what I'm going to say - but if you go to the garden leisure, there's this, rechargeable bulb, outdoor lighting category. It's true innovation. A rechargeable bulb that you can connect onto an outdoor lamp. Different. Now that's a whole new profit centre, which is new money. And it's a bit like the pergola market that's come in. I mean, that's £2 million worth of profit that we're now doing that we never had two years ago. So, innovation, it's not easy, but innovation in product development is critical for growth.

Phil:
Right. And is there a risk for smaller suppliers losing business with Blue Diamond due to the scale of the business?

Alan:
No, no no no. The opposite for all the reasons I said yeah. Sometimes the category managers I have to kind of shake them and say, stop talking to, you know, the big companies that come over to flirt with you and tell you how wonderful you are. Go and speak to the smaller stands, which is why I kind of, if I say stand that small, I just look for one product here, something that, you know, sometimes just one product can be a profit bomb, as I call it.
So, I love the small suppliers and the point of difference. That's their place.

Phil:
Excellent. You mentioned about working with UK suppliers, so I've got a question here, relating to that. So, despite rising consumer support for buying British and the national economic downsides of import led purchasing, many of the big box retailers are solely focussed on price rather than supporting British business. Should UK garden centre chains consider having an active strategy to favour working with British suppliers?

Alan:
Yes. I mean we try to. I mean I spoke to a garden features guy. There's two here, one is designed in the UK and the other one is made in the UK. So, I've done a trial with him on a few centres because I'd like to work with the made in the UK and not with the designed in the UK.
And you've got, you know, Yorkshire Flower Pots or British Flower Pots are back here, because Glee gave them a good deal, so they came. And it's good to see them here. Because, you know, I and I'm going to go back to see them, because I want to get behind their pots. You know, it was the Welsh chap that did the Smith and Jennings range.
And you have to back this. It’s too easy to get seduced by the the big stands and the big boys, which we all need. But you need to work with these smaller - because that gives you not only are you backing British suppliers, but you're giving yourself a point of difference. And you know, when people talk about sustainability, someone was talking to me on one of these compost stands and it had coir in it yesterday.
And I got annoyed with her when she kept mentioning sustainability, because, okay, now what do you mean by that? And she's got coir in a bag. And I said to her, how much do you buy from China? Because China manufactures all of the world's goods. And to do it, they build coal fired power stations, and they're responsible for 25% of the world's emissions.
So, before we start navel gazing and in Britain and worrying about small things, just question how much you're buying from China, which is why I've found a factory in Vietnam which is completely eco centric, in terms of the products, but also it's covered in solar power. So, the whole energy to produce the furniture is solar power. That's the kind of root that you should be thinking rather than silly discussions about sustainability. A compost that’s actually got coir in it.

Phil:
Right. So, how would you rate the performance of Blue Diamond with regards to sustainability?

Alan:
I don't rate anything. We just do what we do and try and work and think about our customers. Our customers, we try to go for AB1 customers, they've got money. They're pretty intelligent, they're self-aware. And so, you think about who your customer… A lot of people don't think enough about the customer. You make the assumption that we're a garden centre, so anyone that's got a garden is going to come to see, see you. You're just not getting deep enough into the psyche of who your customer is. So think about your customer. Think about their lifestyles, their ambitions, their aspirations, and try to meet them. And that's why I want to do this furniture next year with a solar powered Vietnam. I'd love to move Christmas out of China, but they make all of the Christmas in the world and they apparently make all the sex toys as well. So maybe there’s a market in the UK that could move sex toys to UK production. I mean, why do that need to be made in China, I don't know?

Phil:
Absolutely no idea! So, do you see that Blue Diamond has a role to, guide their customers and influence them to make more sustainable product choices?

Alan:
No, I don't want to preach. I just want to kind of connect and work with suppliers to just go on a journey. It's an evolutionary thing. I'm not there to kind of tell customers what they want to do. You just understand where we should be moving to as a culture, as a country in terms of working with, less with China as much as we can and, and trying to get manufacturing back in the UK. But you do it gradually. It's an evolutionary thing. You know, it's not about trying to preach to customers.

Phil:
You mentioned peat-free compost, a minute ago. Growing in peat-free is different to growing in traditional peat compost. The nutrient levels are different, and they require different nutrient balanced feeds. Do you have a plan to update after care, especially replacing old high potassium feeds with peat free ready formulas?

Alan:
Yeah so I read that. Think it was is it Steve, somebody?

Phil:
Yeah, Steve Harper.

Alan:
Yeah, I read that, was it on a LinkedIn something?

Phil:
Yes. He posted something up on LinkedIn.

Alan:
Yeah. So that educated me, so it’s on my list of things to do today.

Phil:
I'm sure Steve will be very happy to talk to you about that.

Alan:
But yes, that's definitely, something that we will focus on because we don't have anything like that.

Phil:
One final question on from my list here. So, Glee's bigger and better this year. It's expanding its offering to introduce a whole new section dedicated to food and hospitality. How have you found the show so far? And is there anything in particular that's caught your eye?

Alan:
Now I don't want to upset anybody. But look, I think I said it earlier, I've always been of the view. If you go to Europe to a show, you pay about €25 something like that. And that helps bring the cost down for suppliers in the show. And at some point, and it may not be in my lifetime, but the UK, if Glee wants to move forward, we'd have to look at that because you need to bring in, more depth in gardening, not breadth of other products that we've seen in other shows.
Now, I was walking around thinking that in my head, and I also thought, well, hang on a minute, Alan. If I was an independent and I didn't have time to go to all of the shows and I could come here and I could look at coffee and I could look at pets. So, from an independent garden centre - and their view is to be listened to as much as mine – because there are more independence in this country, than there are groups, then I kind of get it. But from a personal point of view and looking to evolve gardening and drive the growth, I just would like to see if they exist out there - more. But there are a number of suppliers here, and three of them are only here because they got a good last minute deal, otherwise they wouldn't have been here now. And I think it needs to be thought about and addressed because more depth and for me less breadth. But you can have all of this. Take another hall but fill it with gardening. That would be my only view.

Phil:
There are lots of, first time exhibitors here. I've seen quite a few on my travels round.

Alan:
(whisper) It’s because they got a good deal!

Phil:
Possibly we will open it up. Anybody got a question? We've got a lady down here.

Audience member 1:
Good afternoon. Alan and Phil, you talked briefly about your career before starting Blue Diamond, Alan, I believe you started off in horticulture. I wonder if you could give us a bit more information about your career and how you sort of got where you are?

Alan:
Well, I didn't have the greatest mother in the world, but when I was 16, she looked at me for the first time, and she decided, I didn't do very well at school, so she should do something. She looked around for a catering college because she wasn't around very much, so I was cooking for my younger brother and doing a lot of cooking, I like cooking.
But I was also growing veg in the garden. And we were in East Anglia and there were no catering colleges. So she found a, college in Otley in Suffolk. So I went there and in my first year I got a little plaque, an award for effort.
And then in my second year, that got me international certificate up in Wisbech. And then that enabled me to go and do diploma for three years at Pershore. And then I ran my own business through the 80s. I was in pick your own, pick your own farms. And then that led to a farm shop that led to growing some plants and retailing plants.
And then by the early 90s, I was setting up, Four Counties Nursery, which had a pick your own, it had a nursery, but we were retailing, we started to buy products like Woodlodge in those days, all those funny Chinese elephants – you remember those in the 90s? And it started… a garden centre was being born. And then I did, Nailsworth Waterside, I built it in 94, opened it in 95. And in 95, I did a pretty large restaurant, I did a bit of lady’s fashion, home, the first garden centre to do Brio toys, Caspari cards. This is 30 years ago. Going from that AB female demographic in the Cotswolds. And it was that centre that I built about 20 years that gave birth to my vision for a garden centre group that I then took to Blue Diamond, who had like three centres, 6.7 million, and took that dream to where we are today. So, it came out of horticulture, and I think that's what's helped me retain the, the balance between the necessity of non-gardening. But retain the credibility of our gardening and not let that be overlooked.

Phil:
Any more questions? Got one. Oh, this lady here.

Audience member 2:
How important do you see Grow Your Own. Because Grow Your Own for a mental health and ability for the nation to feed itself and not import. And what you just said, it's clearly been there in your template because you are now with 51 garden centres and your Acorn club. Do you see that as a way of growing so that we can all have our carrots out the back and our herbs and our tatties on the, on the patio? And do you see that as an important element to take forward?

Alan:
Oh, Grow Your Own – Yes, oh, definitely. I mean, when I do eventually retire, guess what I'm going to do? Get back to growing veg.

Audience member 2:
Get an allotment.

Alan:
In an allotment. Because I did it as a kid and I miss it, but I can't do it because I'm so busy. But driving the whole Grow Your Own, and I was on the new innovations that Veg Trug are doing here with, you know… that is so important because I did it as a kid and it's still in me.
If I walk past an allotment or a vegetable patch, I get this sensation. How I felt, you know? It's an interesting point that you raise. How many people miss out on that growing your own veg, that smell of the potato when you just harvest it. Or the tomato. It's magical. But so many people miss out on it.

Audience member 2:
Is that one of your eight pillars?

Alan:
Well, if you come at 1:00, we're doing this announcement of this step-by-step gardening. Because I grew up with Percy Thrower. I used to come home from school, Pebble Mill at one and watch, Peter Seabrook. I grew up with that, how to, in the 70s. Do you remember the Dr Hession books, the most successful how to garden books in the world? We need to get back to that less the lifestyle gardening programs, more of the how to. Which is why we're doing step-by-step gardening.

Phil:
Interesting. I believe we've got a question over here.

Audience member 3:
As you are creating your experience centres, what is your view on the influence of social media within your branch and within your centres?

Alan:
I am an old, bugger. And I was sceptical about social media and then I got behind it and there’s a lady in our group called Anna King. And she's phenomenally creative and she has her Instagram, her own called Making Homes Matter. If you check it out, she gets millions of views. And the thing about, social media, you have to use it in the right way. So, I encouraged her to be creative, come up with creative ideas, and if you go on our Instagram or Facebook page and look at some of the things she's done, they are stunning.
We've had millions of views on some of those postings based on these sensationally creative ideas. She took a water feature and converted a plant container and planted it with bedding, with the water feature. It got over 3 million views. She did one the other day where she broke a pot, and she created like a miniature garden with alpines, with steps. It's all on there. And at the moment, if you combine the views, of Facebook and Instagram, it's approaching a million. It only got posted four days ago. Now that's giving us a reach. But do it through originality and creativity. None of this. I won't mention the name, but crazy this on Instagram pointing at stuff. That's not that's not what it's about.
People want to be inspired and given ideas, and they want to be passionate and they want to grasp this. That's the beauty of social media. It's these little ideas that you can sort of communicate to your customer. I hope that answers your question.

Phil:
I think that about wraps things up. So, I just like to say thank you very much, Alan. I think it's been really insightful, I think we all learned something about, Blue Diamond, about your, vision for the business. So thank you.
Alan:
Okay. Thank you.

Phil:
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The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.