Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now. As well as recording 20 interviews, Kate and I ventured out of our recording booth to gain some insights from exhibitors on the show floor.
The future of gardening is bright and our conversations in this episode highlight some of the activities that are helping to bring horticulture into schools. We hear from Nigel Thompson from Sipcam Home & Garden about how their whole team have got involved. But first we caught up with the effervescent Lee Connelly to hear more about his mission to get children gardening.

We’re welcoming back to The Underground Lee Connolly, welcome, Lee.

Lee:
Hey, that's so awkward, right? And people don't know, but you have to listen to that music and just stare at each other for like, ten seconds before you can actually start speaking. That's the most awkward silence I’ve had.

Kate:
Oh, totally. I've been doing it all day.

Lee:
It's good to be here, thank you so much for having me. I think I said to you a minute ago that literally, I've been waiting a year to come and do this, after seeing you at Glee last time. Because I think it's such an amazing… Well, firstly, great podcast.

Kate:
Thank you

Lee:
But, what a set up?

Kate:
It's the best set up, isn’t it?

Lee:
Honestly. It's amazing.

Phil:
So Lee, why don't we crack on with asking you? What are you hoping to come away from Glee with this year? Is it new ideas, partners or inspiration? What is it?

Lee:
I think friends. Actually. I just think that this is… So for me, like, I obviously from what I do with schools, the school year starts in September. And also, for me within my career, my year starts right now and this show is probably the beginning…

Kate:
It’s the beginning, right?

Lee:
Yeah, so, it's nice to see people that we've met before. Nice to make new friends as well. And yeah, obviously to make new partners to probably push projects we've got coming up in the coming years. But I know people here that I've been speaking to for, I don't know, 6 or 7 years that we've not quite made something happen, but we've become such great friends.
And I'm always like, well, it's going to happen sometime right? It might not be right now. It's just nice to see you, and nice to, you know, chat about gardening, isn't it?

Kate:
So this is your seventh year you've been coming to Glee, would you say?

Lee:
I think so, is that on Google or something? Have you Googled that?

Kate:
I’m not that sad!

Lee:
It's been a few years. Yeah. It's been it's been quite a long, long time coming here, yeah. I think maybe 7 or 8 years I've been coming. So it's always a good show.

Kate:
So, Lee, we all know that your passion is gardening, so let's talk about your school gardening tour 2025. Where did you go? And, what did you discover?

Lee:
Wow, that is a big question. So, yeah, we did a school tour. We got 10,000 children gardening in just one week.

Kate:
Goodness Me!

Lee:
So yeah, it was a it's an amazing thing to do, an amazing thing to be part of. And we visited 15 schools. We went to. I'm trying to think that we went to Derby, which was an amazing place, like such lovely people in Derby. We went to the Royal School of Deaf there, which was a real, different experience for me. Because, for someone that is a communicator within this industry. To have that barrier there was really strange. It really, really taught me a lot about how we try and communicate gardening to everyone.

Phil:
And so did you have someone there signing for you?

Lee:
Yeah, yeah I did, yeah. I also promised afterwards that I'd start learning some sign language. Don’t test me, don’t test me! I've said to them, I'm going to go next year, but… You're doing some now and I don't know what that is. You could be saying anything to me. That's why I need to learn it.

Phil:
It's a bit rude.

Kate:
My name, I’m just signing my name.

Lee:
You can teach me more later. But I'm going to go again next year because it was an amazing experience going there. So we went to Derby, went to Manchester, we had our biggest school in Manchester of 600 children all out in the playground, which was amazing. We come back down to Birmingham and then we went down to Swindon Way and then back to my hometown in Essex as well.

Kate:
Big up the hometown.

Lee:
Of course. You've got to head back there. So yeah, it was really good and the biggest thing from that was trying to inspire as many children as we could in that one week. And that all went on to National Children's Garden the week, which was throughout the holidays as well. So, it was really, what I wanted to do was, impact the kids at school and the teachers, but also have that going back home as well.
So hopefully the nice idea is that we have 10,000 families, growing off the back of it, I don't think that is the number that would have been impacted, but at least there's some sort of… we’re trying to impact that home life as well. And yeah, so it was absolutely amazing. Had such a good time. I learnt so much.
I learnt that, yeah, about communicating in different ways to different children is really important, ensuring the teachers are so well supported because they are the ones you know, we talked about this before, but those are the ones that are going to be leading it. And also making sure that once we leave, we continue that connection that we've built together, because so often things happen where… and I know I've been guilty of this before with brands where we go and do a project and then we just disappear.
And since working with Sipcam and all the team there and what we're doing with the school tour in that way, I said to them from the start, if we're going to do this, we need to make sure that we continue that conversation with them and just try and support them a little bit more.
So yeah, it was really good. And the best thing was getting the feedback from the schools and saying some children were saying: this is the best day they've had all year! And I was like: I'll take that, that was amazing. But also saying that they've started their own gardens at home and that within school and looking after them a lot more.
So they have some really positive feedback. And you know me, I don't like bigging myself up too much, but for once, this was a project that I was so happy about afterwards that was just so full of joy that it went well and that we actually did something pretty amazing. So yeah.

Phil:
That's brilliant. So were there any sort of standout moments or moments of surprise from the kids or teachers or the schools, I mean, you mentioned about the deaf school, but you know, anything else?

Lee:
Yeah, one of the one of the things that was really nice as well, because when you go into these schools, all the teachers know, generally because of the way schools communicate, which is sometimes so difficult, but sometimes the teachers just know that there's someone coming into a gardening talk or activity. And then what we were doing was we were in the back of a pickup truck with confetti cannons, and we had, water pistols and seeds were flying everywhere.
And the most beautiful thing was watching the teachers faces, because I had no idea what to expect. And then all of a sudden, this guy’s on the back of a pickup truck, shooting cannons off into the air and stuff. And so, that was really nice to see. And I think the teachers unexpectedly, because sometimes the way gardening can come across can be a bit - let's be honest, sometimes a little bit dull – but it’s getting better, I’ve got to say that over the years it’s getting better. But they expect it just to be someone come along and sowing a seed and that’s it.
So that excitement was nice to see that they thought, oh that’s really good, we can see how much the children are enjoying this. And on the other side of it was one of the feedbacks we got from one school - the 600 kids in the playground school - which was very impactful, was that there was siblings in the school who don't usually do activities together. And we all we had to do an experience together, which they can all talk about afterwards, made a real big difference. So that was really that was really nice to see that as well. So so yeah, it was very good.

Phil:
Fantastic.

Kate:
So, I'm going to ask you if you could bottle up one message from that tour and beam it straight into the boardrooms of garden brands. What would it be?

Lee:
Wow. That's a, that's…

Kate:
It’s quite a big question.

Lee:
It is a big question. I think for me is that we need to do more of that. Obviously, I would say that because I'm the guy standing on the back of the pickup truck. But we need to have more of those inspirational moments that stick in children's memories.
Because at the moment we've not got that. And we want children especially because for what I do is primary school age. I have so many conversations with people saying, in secondary school, we need to get people in secondary school to go into a career. And that's brilliant, right – we do. And it's 100% true. But without this, work that we do in primary schools - if I talk about seed, a seed doesn't grow into a plant without care and work.
Same with children and gardens. So, we can't just expect them to instantly want to go into a career. Right. So, we need to invest right now in primary school children and actually put some time and effort into them. So that’s probably my biggest message. So, for all the brands that are like: these are our future customers.

Kate:
Absolutely. There's money there.

Phil:
To use a gardening metaphor. You've got to nurture them, really, in the same sort of way.

Lee:
Which goes back to what I was saying earlier about Glee and me coming here, and speaking to brands six or seven years, I'm always like, don’t worry, it will happen at some point.

Kate:
It is meant to be.

Lee:
It's meant to be, right? But as I’ve been saying, we've got to really invest in these children now because eventually they're going to be our customers and we need to build that relationship with them at an early age. And that's probably what we need to do as an industry.

Kate:
Plant the seed.

Lee:
Ah nice! I'm not taking that one, that's very good.

Phil:
So, we see you, tease a new venture that you've got going on with your brother. Can you tell us about that.

Lee:
I don't know, I can't tell you what I told you outside too much, but, because, but basically, we are filming for a new programme. It's a travel… He's - my brother is an art therapist, so if anyone…

Kate:
Oh, I didn’t know that?

Lee:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we used to be doing this together. So, we may have once seen us walk around Glee together at some point. I'm pretty sure we said that all garden centres would be finished in ten years time. On stage once. I don't believe that anymore. Just to let you know, my mind has changed around how garden centres are! If anyone is listening from a garden centre - I'm like, I love garden centres now. But we used to work together, “slagging off garden centres”, but now we've come back together.
He's an art therapist and obviously I do children's gardening. And so, from what we're doing, we’re filming a programme which sort of brings both our passions together and wants to try and inspire people to see things they may not have seen before. And make, like I've always taught - I probably spoke to you two both about this, about making a programme that's just a little bit different and has a bit of excitement in it.
So like for instance, we were like in go karts flying around Tokyo and that was just a really fun part we were doing, but also going to like theme parks as well and seeing how they do stuff, which I think is something that we miss a lot, like we don't - it's just part of life isn’t it - everyone just walks by in parks, basically people walking through them, but sometimes don't think about the plants around them.
And so anyway, yeah, so we were filming over there and then the project I can't tell you about, but I wish I really, really wish that I could tell you about, is something that was exciting over in Japan as well. But to be honest with you, for me going over there, and just being out to see… So, for instance, we went to, a place called Team Labs over there, which is an art experience, that mixes nature in.
I'll show you some photos later it's really cool. But going over there and seeing stuff like that makes me want to bring that into projects that I've got going on over here. So, like, for instance, in the summer I was doing a library tour and being able to add aspects of what I learned over in Japan into that and bring that to children of families, it really fascinates me. And so yeah, so as well as filming, it was also a bit of a research for projects as well. Which is really cool.

Phil:
I love that seeing the creative mind at work, just making those connections and saying, yeah, well, we could do that over here and stuff. That's just brilliant, I love that.

Lee:
Yeah, it's nice that you don't need to go all the way to Japan…

Kate:
Great Yarmouth?

Lee:
Maybe Yarmouth. Yeah, I know I told you earlier about Yarmouth, it’s influenced me in some ways. Not quite the same as Japan did, but you need to get out there and see these things, to sort of influence you to put into projects, especially if I'm trying to, again get children excited and parents interested in it, there needs to be some sort of backing behind it. And so that's nice that next year some of the projects and that filming project will sort of do that. So yeah.

Kate:
Well, we'll get you back here next year. Talking to us about it properly.

Lee:
Oh yeah. Well I can tell you about that other thing, ah, I’m so I'm excited about it. I hate when people do that as well. I've become with them people.

Kate:
You have. Yeah - No I can’t tell you.

Lee:
I can’t tell you about it all. I’m just too cool, yeah.

Kate:
So, you've been campaigning, about something that's really close to my heart, and has been for a long time. And that is getting, horticulture into the curriculum. So, or gardening, I should say. How's that going?

Lee:
Yeah, do you know what and it's the same thing I tell you every year.
This is a really hard thing as well, is I wish I could put more time into it and there are other people doing it, but maybe feel like I need to put more time into it because it's so slow. It's always going to be slow as we as we know. And there's always such big changes.
Obviously, last year there was - I really haven't thought about this question too much - but last year we had the change of government policy and that actually produced a lot more conversations, which is beautiful and brilliant.
But, will that government would be about in a few… I don't know. And this is the issue – maybe I shouldn't say that, I don't know - but there's always so much change within government. And so, it's always going to be a slow process. I don't know how the, curriculum review and the changes they're going to bring in, is going to make a big difference. But for me, being in schools and speaking to teachers about how they're bringing in gardening and horticulture, I can only sort of relay that to the government and tell them the good things that are going on and how even in the smallest of ways, we can make that part of children's lives.
I don't, I don't… I wish I could say next year. Yeah, brilliant it'll be in there - but it's not going to be. Well, let's be honest. It's not going to be in there straight away.

Kate:
No.

Lee:
But we can definitely, show best practices, and show what is working. And is relevant as well, because one of the things that I have noticed is there some amazing schools doing amazing stuff, within horticulture and gardening. But that is never always going to work for all of the schools.

Kate:
And often it's one teacher, isn't it? And if that teacher leaves, then…

Lee:
It's over, right? We say this all the time, so it's me looking at the best and saying, and not the worst, but saying that that school that has no money or no teachers, no teaching staff or time, how can we look at bringing that into their school? And so, we might have to reduce it right down. But if I can do something then that's brilliant.
So, I know like the HTA you're talking a lot about just one child growing one plant. And when I first heard that I was like: no we need to do more, we need to do more than that. But actually, if we can just get that.

Kate:
It’s a start.

Lee:
It’s just something, isn't it? It's just that little spark that could get the teacher to do more and say, oh, actually… a bit like the tour. A bit like the teachers seeing how the kids reacted to the tour, right? If the teachers see that excitement and that they're learning something from growing that plant, then maybe the teacher will go, oh, maybe we need to do some more here. Maybe I need to look into this more. So yeah, the answer to your question about ten minutes ago was…

Kate:
Slowly.

Lee:
Slowly, but again, like everying everything we've talked here, it does, it takes time. Right? And if it's going to be worth it and it's going to be around for a while, then we need to… we need to take time on it as well.

Kate:
So as Amy Stubbs from British Garden Centres was saying, it's just about getting the government to take horticulture more seriously. About every, you know, on board generally, isn't it? You know, that's a thing. It's a big industry contributes money, jobs.

Lee:
It's a really tough one, isn't it? Because, I've talked about this for so many years is that there's not many industries - like if the building industry, right? No one does that as a hobby, do they? And goes, oh, what are you doing this weekend?

Kate:
Some strange people will!

Lee:
Well, yeah, some people will maybe. I'm going to build a wall this weekend as a hobby. Right. And so, it's a difficult one for our industry still. To say you're a gardener, I'm like a gardener, right? I wouldn't call myself a horticulturist or anything getting wrapped up into that whole thing. But it's a real tough one. But, it's real hard one for our industry to say we've got a real professional, and also real profitable, because there's a lot of money in our industry. And then you've also got the hobby side of it. So, it's a real hard one. And then for me again, I’m sorry I keep going back to schools, but for me, for what I'm trying to do next year with the school tour is try and show those children that this place is here.

Kate:
That there’s careers out there. You can earn money.

Lee:
Yeah, exactly. And so for me, that's a really big important part because I never had that when I left school. I honestly thought it was something I never knew this was going on. I just thought it was something your nan and grandad does.

Kate:
Absolutely.

Lee:
And so we need to show children that. We need to show young people that this is sitting here waiting for them.

Phil:
We've talked about, the importance of kids getting into gardening, and we're sat here at Glee with halls full of different brands and all involved in gardening and horticulture and the industry. How can those brands get involved in bringing that message into schools?

Lee:
I think we need to, I mean, we need to invest is the thing. We need to start, not just in projects like what I'm doing, but there's so many people doing, gardening projects, around children's gardening. But just by investing in that and ensuring that what you're investing in is going to last.
So, it's not just a quick, superhero shot of someone with kids gardening, and then you get that for your branding and then off you pop and you've done your bit. You need to ensure that whatever you are investing in has that longevity. But at the end of the day, we need we need to put money into it.
And that's the biggest thing I know the money's hard to come by, but if you want a younger audience, if you want young people into the garden, then we can't just wait for people… for someone else to do it. We can't wait for an organisation to come along, or the government to do it. And we know, like seeing everyone here today, we're a really strong industry who really want to try and help each other. But we need to and we need to invest in stuff to get that message out there. We can't just sit back and hope that someone accidentally walks into the NEC with a group of kids and sees Glee going on. Do you know what I mean? We need to get out there and tell them that this is going on. And so, yeah, some investment needs to go on to be honest with you.

Phil:
Yeah, I think that's interesting though, because I think there are a number of brands who see, kids and schools gardening, who I think see it as an opportunity for them rather than an investment. And I think, you know, that they're looking at it and going, oh, we could make some money here. Whereas I think the way you're looking at it is actually: that's shortsighted.

Lee:
Yeah. I can't tell you... Look, I've been doing this for like 13 years now, so I've worked with a lot of brands in the past, but I can't tell you how many brands work. I've lost over the last five years because they just want that quick fix and they want to try and sell and then - but the beautiful thing is I've sort of rode that storm and started to meet brands that really do care and really do want to continue that story.
But yeah, it's a real tough, it's a real hard one. But I think we just need to make sure there's that longevity. So anything we do, I think that's it. I think that's the case. I mean, you're the experts in this, right? But that's the case with anything, I think you can make a really quick marketing campaign that looks great one year, but it why not make sure it lasts and make sure that it continues and you have some sort of impact off the back of it. And you know, that's exactly what Sipcam did with the school tour is that they impacted 10,000 children. And then like, we're here now at Glee talking about. And there's that story behind - that story is such a big thing. And if you can impact that many children from doing something and the kids continue to not nurture that. Then what an amazing story to be able to tell people. It's not just selling a product.

Kate:
It’s not just a marketing opportunity.

Lee:
Yeah, you've got some heart behind what you're selling. It’s doing something right? So, so yeah, that's probably a really big message that I'm sort of trying to push out there and make sure that people that I work with really do care. Which, you know, you know what it's like, sometimes it's not always that way, but we find them. We do find them, they’re out there.

Phil:
Brilliant. You you're working with Sipcam and we've done some work with Sipcam, and one of the things that we've been working on with them is coming up for next year. And that is a joyful rebellion. Which I think it epitomises exactly what you're saying.

Lee:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Phil:
So bringing that joy to the gardening and to the kids and, and just that whole activity, it’s trying to make it a much more joyful experience.

Lee:
It's about making them memories, that I always talk about. The biggest thing that I think we can do is create that memory that is going to stick with people. And they may not… that moment that they're having that joyful rebellion (which is a great name, by the way) that joyful rebellion, once they have that moment, it doesn't mean necessarily that they're going to then become gardeners. It might mean that in about 2 or 3 years time, they have a conversation, and they go, actually, do you remember when we did that? Well let’s do more. It's like you just need that little memory, put it in the back of someone's brain and just let it sit there and grow. (Do you know what I hate, our industry there’s so many puns.)

Kate:
Oh, no, it’s great, I love it. Have you seen the badges Phil's designed?

Lee:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly that.

Kate:
Oh, I love the pun.

Lee:
But that's what we need. The memory side is so, so important that this is the biggest thing that we can put out there, through our marketing and stuff. So, yeah, it's really important.

Kate:
But let's move away from brands for a little while, let's look at garden centres. So, many of them are potential as a family destination. Not all are quite living up to that. What do you think they can do better?

Lee:
Well, I reckon all garden centres will be gone in ten years time! No, I’m joking, I’m messing around!

Kate:
Why are we asking you this?

Lee:
I can't tell you, and this is crazy, right? Because I did say that. And I admit it. Everyone probably forgot I said it. I could have got away with not saying anything. But I can't tell you how the flip I've had over the last few years, probably since 2020, of how important garden centres are to connecting people together. It's so, so important. They have such an important job to bring community together and, and get people gardening because at the end of the day they have so many great experts sitting around. I love going to garden centre. And sometimes I will ask a question: boom, they know the answer. And there's so much education around that. But like I say, bringing people together is very important and some are doing better than others. Especially around children's gardening and family stuff. But you know, just having… it's like anything, as I was speaking about, like just gardens actually as well. But garden centres are the same, is having something that children can do, that as a parent you can say, let's have a little walk around the garden centre and then we'll come back to that activity. Just having a small activity is really, really important. And I think that, you know, I could list off a whole long line of stuff that people and garden centres could do in their garden centre, but having one activity that just parents can say when we're finished having to look around to find some plants, we'll come back to that. And then that keeps children, you know, they’re happy then aren't they.

Kate:
So, do you visit garden centres as a family. Do you do that?

Lee:
Yeah we do, we do. You know what, there's one - I can't remember the name of it now - but they've got an amazing play area. See, this is what I'm saying. Garden Centres have changed so much, and I think I used to think it was a negative that we have restaurants and materials, right? But actually, making them that destination where - it's quite clever, really. I'm just sitting here realising it - but it's quite clever. No, it's really clever because they, they do become a destination that you can go to and spend some time together as a family. And go and buy some plants as well.
I remember last year me and Olive did a project together and we went to the garden centre, and we bought loads of plants…

Phil:
I remember, I loved that.

Lee:
Yeah, it was so good. We had such a great time, because we went... So basically, we went to a garden centre. We both had about, I think we had a £5 or £10 to spend. It was really difficult to watch her spend it because I was like: don't buy that.
Yeah, we went, we bought some plants. We popped in to the coffee shop had a bit of cake together and spent some time chatting about plants, which was amazing, I thought was brilliant. And then we went back in the afternoon and spent time putting them up into a plant thing, and I made like a Jurassic Park themed garden.

Phil:
It was the best.

Lee:
Thank you mate.

Phil:
It was that best.

Lee:
It was better than hers! Wasn’t it? And she made a fairy garden.
But that's a whole day and that's all been based around visiting the garden centre. So, so important. And, and I really wish that more parents took their children to garden centres, because I think that it's just an amazing place to be able to go.

Kate:
Well my son used to dread it, you know? You know, when he didn't have to come to the garden centre, he was just like, yeah!

Lee:
But it’s making it interesting, isn't it? Exactly like that Olive would have not enjoyed - well one, the brownie helped. You know that did help. But just having that focus as well. So you know, like I say…

Kate:
There was a reason.

Lee:
Yeah. There's a reason behind it which is really important. So yeah.

Phil:
So we've witnessed the end or the demise of the Skinny Jean Gardener. So what was the, thinking behind that? And what's happening?

Lee:
I just couldn't fit in skinny jeans anymore! No, I still love skinny jeans. Do you know what? I started Skinny Jean Gardener, 13 years ago, so I was… I didn't know what I was doing then. Obviously, I got into gardening, and I fell into, I luckily fell into children's gardening and had this whole media career. And it's just slowly progressed.
And now I'm getting older as we all are right? I feel like I just… especially talking to government and politicians and stuff. I just wanted to change my name. It's not that really matters because everyone knows me as Lee, right? But just make it a little bit more to what I am now and sort of bring it all together. And it means that when it is really sunny and hot and I'm doing a show on stage, I can wear shorts. If I’m honest, that's the real reason I can wear shorts again. But yeah.

Kate:
You've grown up, you've grown up, your brand has grown up. I know you're not a brand, but you kind of are. And so, you know, you've grown out of that now.

Lee:
What I stand for has changed so much. And I think, you know, even though we've got joyful rebellion, with ecofective, when I was the Skinny Jean Gardener in the early days, I was just a bit of a rebel. I was a little bit like, I didn't like I was… I would reject Glee and stuff I wouldn't want to be part of that.

Kate:
Garden Centres

Lee:
Exactly, those were those days.

Kate:
Now you're off eating cake.

Lee:
But now like coming to events like this and meeting people and just feeling this is such a big family. All of us are just seeing each other. I get so excited to see everyone. And yeah, so my whole mindset on the industry and what I'm doing and what and what I stand for is changed.
And as hard as it is to let go of that Skinny Jean Gardener name, it’s the right time to do it. And it's the right time to start doing something a bit different.

Kate:
Have you seen any really good examples of a garden centre creating a fun space for kids?

Lee:
Well do you know what, that one that I talked about, the play area one. And it's got a like a little farm next to it, they've really gone for it. If I'm honest with you, the one I'm thinking about, I'm not gonna name it, could do a little bit more on its actual garden centre itself, but it's got the stuff there to really make a big, big thing. I'm actually really wanting to work more with garden centres to try and direct them with stuff, because I've got so many ideas that can be implemented within a garden centre, which doesn't actually cost a lot. But can really hold people there… actually not even hold people, just make people enjoy the experience a bit more with their kids.
So, I'm actually looking to do more with garden centres in that way, but probably those ones that really do well is especially over the holidays, as well. I've noticed that they're doing a lot more activities for children. So really diving into that National Children's Garden Week, which I'm ambassador for now, which is quite cool. Well, I like I, I really want a badge for that. Can you make me badge?

Phil:
Of course.
Ambassador, you're really spoiling us.

Lee:
Yeah, OK, I wish I’d never said that now.
But seeing how many garden centres get involved in that as well, it's like. It's amazing, right? Because they do care, like, there's a lot out there, but I just think that maybe, I don't know, maybe me or maybe some someone that needs to direct that they need to help the ones because there's a lot of people are rudderless at the moment. Not sure how to do it. And just put in a bag of compost and some pots on the side and hoping that that will do.

Kate:
A packet of seeds.

Lee:
Yeah, and there you go. That's fine. That literally lasts about two minutes, won’t it? So, there are some good examples out there. But we maybe need to direct it a liitle bit better.

Phil:
Yeah. Thank you so much, Lee. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Really lovely chatting.

Kate:
And best of luck with all the campaigning. It's you know, it's so inspiring what you do. I love watching your progress, I really do.

Lee:
Oh, I love you too. I love seeing you guys. I was so excited at seeing you.

Phil:
And your little secret squirrel enterprise or whatever you’re up to.

Lee:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Phil
Well, you’re keeping it under your hat.

Lee:
I've told you already what it is. I just can't speak about it elsewhere. Next year. I'll tell you next year.

Phil:
All right.

Kate:
Wonderful. Thank you Lee

Lee:
Thanks very much.

Kate:
So I'm here at the Mr. Fothergills stand, and I'm just having a quick chat with a Glee newbie. So Manon, this is your first year at Glee. How are you finding it?

Manon:
Honestly. Amazing. There's so much to witness and experience. I'm new to this industry as well. And honestly, it's just incredible seeing all of the new varieties, new products, and just in general seeing everybody collaborating and just kind of having those conversations. It's been really interesting and really fun. And yeah, I just really, really enjoyed my time here today.

Kate:
So, are you a gardener? Are you a keen gardener or are you going to get into gardening?

Manon:
I do garden, I'm also a newbie at that. But yeah, definitely, coming to Fothergills has been incredible because I've just got more and more knowledge and I've just gotten better. And essentially that's kind of why we've got our slogan, which is helping everybody grow.

Kate:
And what makes Mr. Fothergill special? Why is it still around?

Manon:
Well, from my experience, I think that it's simply a trusted brand that people have always relied upon. And, you know, we've been very customer centric and very much, as I said, helping everybody grow. And that's our main mission; is we want everybody to be involved. So, people that have the space we want them to, you know, to do something with it. And we want to help facilitate that.

Kate:
Well, thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the show. There's one on a bit more days to go. So good luck with it. Thank you so much.

Phil:
We are so lucky to be joined today by Nigel Thompson from Sipcam.

Nigel:
Hi good afternoon guys.

Kate:
Hello Nigel.

Nigel:
Hello. Hello.

Phil:
Really good to see you, Nigel. So let's start with an easy one. How's Glee going for you?

Nigel:
It's going really well. I think everyone's got a smile on their face. And I think there's a really good vibe around our industry after, I think it's fair to say everyone's had a good season, so. Yeah, it's been it's been great so far.

Phil:
Fantastic.

Kate:
So, Sipcam has a strong presence at the show this year. Tell us a bit about the focus that you've got this year.

Nigel:
For us the focus is on greener gardening. In very simple terms in broad terms and our ecofective brand. But I think also in just making it as easy as we can for customers to buy the product from us and to sell it as well. So to try and think about the whole thing and think about the consumer, so that's the focus for us.

Phil:
Okay. And all of a products that you're specifically focusing on with that?

Nigel:
Particularly the ecofective brand that's probably got most prominence, certainly most colour on our stand, If you’ve come to the stand, it’s definitely got the most colour. And it was interesting because I asked the guys the other day, yesterday, I said after day one, what do we think the biggest product highlight has been for you individually? And I think we got five different answers from the five people I asked.
It's not great for getting consensus, but great for kind of width isn't it. So yeah.

Phil:
Brilliant. So, did you, guys enter any of the new product awards this year?

Nigel:
Yes we did. We entered quite a bit. And we were shortlisted in two and, didn't win but some great other products did win.

Kate:
So good feedback.

Nigel:
Yeah.

Phil:
So which of the products, got through to the shortlist?

Nigel:
One of our Get Off products, Get Off Lawn Rescue, in the pet category. And then in the landscaping category under the Block Blitz brand: Gravel Cleaner and Restorer.

Kate:
So the sexy products.

Nigel:
The rock and roll, you know, cutting edge stuff. Yeah.

Kate:
So we've seen ecofective evolve quite a bit over the last couple of years. What's prompted the shift in brand direction?

Nigel:
We look at it all the time and we get really close and we get we get too close. And I don't think, I hope I'm right in saying this, we've never been afraid to take criticism and critique from internally and externally, and you kind of look all the time and think, how could it be better? Rather than think, well, we've arrived and that's the destination.
So, we've taken some external help to do that, really. And I think you've not got to be defensive when you do that. You've got to be open. So yeah.

Phil:
So, Ecofective Nourish & Bloom is launching at Glee here. How does that fit in with, where the brand is heading as a whole, do you think?

Nigel:
At this moment in time and we're only a day and a half into that product launch, it feels like that is more like the future for us, because I think it's got a bit more personality than ecofective. It feels like that's a sub-brand of ecofective, to us, and it feels like that's going to be the direction.

Kate:
Can I just stop you? So you launched Nourish & Bloom and Glee?

Nigel:
Yeah, we've shown it to a few customers just before Glee. But we're always so close to deadlines in terms of launching - not lots of people – so, yeah. Launched at Glee. Yeah.

Phil:
And what's the reaction been like so far?

Nigel:
Been really good. So those five people that I asked, one of them definitely said Nourish & Bloom has been has been the talking point. Yeah.

Phil:
Brilliant.

Kate:
So Nigel, how do you balance being eco-conscious while still convincing the consumer about the product's efficacy?

Nigel:
Really interesting, this is a conversation we have with a lot of people on the stand, Yeah, it is. And, just been talking to one of our customers now, about this. And the reality is, I know it's a cliché to use this, but it is a journey, isn't it? You know, you're on a journey. And I think if you're easily frustrated that, you know, it's kind of that classic with the kids in the car, are we there yet? No we're not. We're still a few miles in, making a few changes on the journey and the destination and the slight change in direction sometimes. And I think, you know, the core garden centre customer is probably still a little older than our target consumer. So, we've got that disparity that you waiting for the customer to come into main view.
And then you've got to be patient because you can't speed that process up can you?

Kate:
No you can’t no.

Phil:
So with regards to that efficacy thing, do you actually have like trials that you can point people to you and say, you know, this is how effective the product's been?

Nigel:
Yeah, definitely. We've got to always back that up and stand behind that. And yeah, just so, with Nourish & Bloom there's bacteria - seven strains of bacteria - that we know has been proved in lawn applications and professional applications. So, we can stand behind that rather than we've just developed these products, fingers crossed, hope it works.

Kate:
Bacteria is such an interesting one isn't it? It's really becoming a kind of buzz word now in gardening. We've had it with gut health and now we're seeing it within the plant world. I think it's brilliant, it’s the way to go. So, you're obviously in the zeitgeist at the moment aren't you, so keep pushing that.

Nigel:
I think so, yeah. We talk about yes soil health. We talk about gut health. So, in that sense that's our analogy. As you know we've got organic superfoods. So that language not saying we've exclusively brought that to the garden sector. I don't think we have, but it's language that we hope people understand from living their lives really.

Kate:
And people are talking about it a lot more than they were, say, a couple of years ago aren’t they? Those people are understanding it now.

Nigel:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Phil:
So I've noticed on the stand we’ve also got, another new product, Fito Flourish.

Nigel
Yes.

Phil:
Okay. So, tell us a little bit about that. I mean, it's quite a big, bold statement. What makes that stand out?

Nigel:
What makes that stand out? I think there's a few things, in terms of what's in Flourish and that exists somewhere else. If we're honest and said we are, you know, we're not afraid to critique our products and to get other people to do that. We looked at that product in its present incarnation and thought, there's too many messages there, all great messages. This needs to be clean. It needs to be simple. So, there was a messaging aspect to that to communicate the product in a different way. I think also with houseplant, there's so much that's about the aesthetic, isn't it? You go to garden centres, you go to houseplants. There’s very little point of sale. It's about the plants.
And even the plant care in houseplants is positioned in a very distinct and unique way. So, we realised we had to have a product that sits with that consumer, sits in that category, sits in that environment and is right. If we're honest, our current one jarred a little bit.

Kate:
So this is this is all about marketing. This is branding. This isn't a new ingredient or new product. This is all about how you sell it.

Nigel:
Absolutely. Right Kate. Yeah.

Phil:
And so just tell us a little bit about that product then.

Kate:
What is Fito Flourish?

Phil:
So, for our listeners.

Nigel:
What is Fito Flourish? So, it's full of nutrients. So, it'll provide watering nutrients. It's got a cellulose aspect to it. And that that does a couple of things. So that that enables a slow release of the nutrients. You can't overwater with this because under-watering and overwatering issues in different species of plants, houseplants etc., but also the physical barrier that the cellulose provides will stop, eggs being laid in there, where eggs will get laid in lava.

Kate
So we're looking at fungus gnats?

Nigel:
Looking particular at fungus gnats. That's a big issue in houseplants isn’t it?

Kate:
Yes. Yeah.

Nigel:
And especially with some being grown in peat free compost. So that's the kind of the three aspects really from a slightly more technical point of view. So yeah, it's doing a feeding job, it's doing a nutrition job, but it's also doing a protection job as well.

Kate:
Right, I’m going to have to really look into this because fungus gnats is just - well especially last year with so much damp around, it was just a nightmare. And you get people get so emotive about their houseplants. And even though we know they're not going to kill your plants, just having these little things flying around, it's just hideous.
Sorry, I’ve gone off on a tangent.

Phil:
It's all right. So, was there a particular gap in the market that you saw that, that you think actually that's what we need to use to fill that? There's a need a consumer need?

Nigel:
Yet I think what some of what we just touched on with the protection, there's always that need, need to feed, as it were. That's always been there. And other people offer lots of different solutions for that were not the only one. I think we were also aware, as well with the Fito brand, the Fito brand was the first to bring drip feeders to the UK market, 20 odd years ago.

Kate:
Right, I didn’t know that.

Nigel:
Yeah. So, there's something about, well, what's Fito? What can we bring in Fito, that's just going to break a bit of ground again really. We had it in Wonder Gel in its previous incarnation, but we just felt aesthetically that didn't quite fit as well with houseplants.

Kate:
Okay.
Well, I think people with houseplants, they're very discerning aren’t they. And as you said, it's about the aesthetics as well. But I've also found that, with kind of garden plants, we know people don't know they've got a feed, but I've often found with houseplants, you've got that younger generation and they are looking up on the internet.
They're looking at social videos, and they seem to know that actually they need to feed their houseplants a little bit more. And if you've got the right product, I think really onto a winner there.

Nigel:
Yeah. I hope so.

Kate:
Fingers crossed!

Phil:
So, Fito, you mentioned there the drip feeders and some people may have come across those, but it's not really a well-known brand necessarily in the garden sphere for many gardeners.

Kate:
In the UK.

Phil:
In the UK, yeah. So is this part of a bigger plan for the brand do you think?

Nigel:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So Fito exists in Europe. So it's in Italy for example. It's quite strong right. But we've got to just adapt for what the UK needs and wants in terms of consumers and houseplants etc. really. So yeah, I think watch this space as the years go, is the message Phil, I think you're onto something there.

Kate:
So is Italy… Are they big houseplant buyers in Italy?

Nigel:
I believe so I, I haven't got market data, I’m not that close. But I think with kind of more apartments and smaller spaces, you tend to get a lot more balcony and indoor gardening. So, when I look and we work very closely with our sister company in Italy, so when I look at their portfolio of houseplant products, yeah, it is quite, quite impressive.

Kate:
Okay. So, I mean we're talking about you got the Italian kind of arm, sister company shall we call it?

Nigel:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kate:
Okay. So, but I think it's fair to say Sipcam, it's not the biggest player in the UK, but it's certainly becoming one of the most interesting. How do you think about this challenging behaviour?

Nigel:
I think in the last 12 months it’s something that we've probably, understood a little bit more. So, some of the different direction you were saying before, I think we've realised that, as the brand develops and as the brand gets into more stockists and we understand it a little bit more so that. Yeah, I think that's yeah, that's definitely been a focus in the last 12 months. What's the personality. What's the voice of the brand. What do we want to say. How does it communicate. How is it felt by consumers. I think coupled with what's our point of difference as well. And what does a market need. Because I think if you just rock up with something quite similar or just a little bit different than what people have got, that's of no help really, I don't think to consumers and to the trade.

Kate:
It's interesting you say about point of difference because Alan Roper this morning, at the Q&A that Phil very successfully ran, he was talking point of difference, really important. And that's what he looks for with new products and new companies.

Phil:
Yeah, absolutely. And I was just about to say: so, has being a challenger allowed you to take more creative risks, do you think?

Nigel:
Yes, I think he does. Yeah. Because I think it's a completely different position than being the number one market leader, where it's a little bit - from a business point of view, it's a bit about defending your space and holding on to market share. In a previous working life, as it were, I've kind of been there, where this is more bottom up. You can't take a risk, you know, you can roll the dice a little bit sometimes and think, well, let's see. And then you would adjust, or amend a little bit as, as you do that. And that's quite good fun.

Phil:
Yeah.

Kate:
So how important is brand building in a category that often focuses on function and price.

Nigel:
Yeah, good question. Yeah, because there are some - whether there's trade or consumer, there’s definitely recognised brands that we're up against. And that takes time. Yeah, to do that. And I think it is important, you know, because we know that, you know, consumers will go out on feeds and have a lot of brand loyalty.
The stuff that's been around a long time and stuff that's on television. So yeah, creating that brand is it's time consuming, lengthy and expensive. Expensive on not just monetary terms, but expensive in terms of time and emotional efforts sometimes.

Kate:
You get very attached, don't you?

Nigel:
You do. Yeah. A bit like, Yeah, a bit like raising children.

Kate:
They’re your babies.

Nigel:
Yeah. Joyful and, frustrating all at the same time. Yeah. Sleepless nights. Yeah.

Phil:
So I'm going to put you on your spot now, Nigel, so, if you had to pick just one of your products to show a buyer who'd never heard of Sipcam, what would it be and why?
Right here, right now, that would be Nourish & Bloom for me.

Kate:
Okay.

Nigel:
Yeah, it would. And I know that's only a day and a half old as it were, but yeah, it would be.

Kate:
Why?

Nigel:
Because I think it captures for me some of that zeitgeist that you mentioned. I think at the moment you know, we believe our, our core, consumer is 70% female. And the female responses to it, I spent a bit of time just asking specifically female visitors to stand. I just think the language and the emotion and the colour and the happiness that it brings, I think it puts a smile on a buyers face.

Phil:
I'm going to drop an extra question in now. I know that you've been working very closely with Lee Connolly. And we had Lee Connolly on yesterday

Kate:
Lovely Lee.

Phil:
…and having a chat with him. Can you just tell us a bit about how that relationship is working from your perspective?

Nigel:
Yes, certainly. And certainly, from this year. So, this year, 2025 is the first year we've worked with Lee. And our focus was on getting children gardening in very simple terms. So, we worked with in-person 15 schools remotely with another 15. So, 30 schools and were basically planting wildflower seeds. A lot of the team actually got involved in the schools, so I personally was in three schools in my locality.

Phil:
Excellent.

Nigel:
And that was yeah. So we ecofective brand sponsored Lee, partnered with Lee with some other people to go and do that. And that was really about: let's get children growing. Let's get children out of the classroom. Let's get them active. Let's see if we can uncover some people that might be green-fingered, etc..

Kate:
Budding gardeners.

Nigel:
Yeah. And then watch this space for 2026. That might be a bit more community led than it has been this year, but that's been a lot of fun and very rewarding just to see children have so much fun with a little pot and a little bit of coir compost. And some wild flowers, it's amazing. And the teachers actually singing, dancing, jumping, planting. Best days I've spent this year at work have been genuinely in schools.

Kate:
Oh really?

Nigel:
Yeah.

Kate:
But it's nice to see that you're doing something tangible. You're not just giving an influencer like, here's some money. We're going to sponsor you. You're actually getting involved, getting, you know, getting down and dirty, as it were.

Nigel:
Yeah, definitely.

Kate:
And you know, you get the children now, they might forget about it when they're teenagers. But you've sown that seed, haven't you? So, hopefully they're going to grow up and you know for your next generation of customers.

Nigel:
I hope so.

Phil:
So as a brand what do you get out of that type of activity?

Nigel:
I think for us as ecofective, you know, one of the things we've always said is it's child and pet safe as a product. So, I think we feel really confident leading with that rather than actually leading with Sipcam Home and Garden, in sponsoring this campaign. I think that ecofective as a as a brand, I think young mums would be definitely the consumer we would love to have. So cynically, it's not about, well, we'll sponsor this because the young mums might buy our brand. It genuinely is about let's grow the next generation. As you said, with so literally sowing the seeds with the children, hopefully metaphorically sowing some seeds with children. So, I think putting that ecofective brand in that space, you know, with schools and interesting we've had a conversation with someone that’s involved in schools and gardening today, and there might be something that we go away and do with some camps and various other things.
So, the driver isn't about a material monetary fiscal return for ecofective. It is about how can this help our beloved industry, it genuinely is about that.

Kate:
So what else are you excited about for Sipcam in the next 12 to 18 months?

Nigel:
Excited about getting the products into store. Excited about the response. See what that happens. Excited about campaign with Lee for next year, which is slightly wider in terms of in terms of the community.

Kate:
Right.

Nigel:
Excited and nervous all again about the next season ahead because it feels like we've done 2025 now. Now we’re here, doesn't it?

Kate:
It does. Yes.

Nigel:
Yeah. Who knows what that's going to bring. Who knows what the bank holidays…

Kate:
What the weather is going to be like.

Nigel:
The patterns and the trends are going to be for next year. But I think gardening’s got a great future.

Kate:
It has. But it’s not for the faint hearted, though, is it?

Nigel:
No, it’s not for the faint hearted. And it's not for those that, you know that love the predictable, neither is it?

Phil:
So you said, right at the beginning, we were asking you about how things are going at Glee and you said: oh, you know, it's going really well. Have you, from a commercial side of things, have you seen people coming on the stand, are you starting to make deals? Are you starting to see sort of a bit of a shift in people wanting to stock your products and that sort of thing?

Nigel:
Yeah. There's been a couple and I won’t mention them here, obviously, but there's been a couple of big conversations that usually go on for years, some of these are years in the making. And really good feedback about that. So hopefully there's a few you know, newer stockists, more stockists for us as well. And I think we've been bringing this message, about greener gardening for quite some time now.
And it feels a lot easier to have that conversation. And, you know, and retailers understand that a lot more, not just with our brand, but I think generally in gardening, and we all know that the growing media peat free, conversations, challenges, opportunities are all there. And we're playing some sort of part in that.
But yeah, what is really refreshing from my point of view, from our point of view, is when a conversation has been happening for a few years and people say we need to make this happen next year. We’ve still got to do that, and that is a challenge. But you know that it's been worth the years of just investing and being here. Yeah.

Phil:
So you are in it for the long haul aren’t you?

Nigel:
Absolutely, Phil.

Phil:
Yeah, we're going to just wrap up now, but I just wonder whether you got any final thoughts or hopes for the rest of the show, you that while you're here at Glee?

Nigel:
I hope to see some more people, current customers, and obviously it's great, genuinely, I think one of the things I love about this show is ex-colleagues, old colleagues, industry friends, etc. you know, there's a warmth about this show. We always enjoy Floral Thursday because I think that always feels about other people. And, we've stepped up the game in terms of dress code for Floral Thursday.

Kate:
Oooh, We look forward to seeing that.

Nigel:
So I might be slightly out of my comfort zone tomorrow, slightly out of comfort zone. But I think, you know, we remind ourselves, you know, Floral Thursday is not about us, is it?

Kate:
No.

Nigel:
It's about bringing some joy to some hospices. And that's really important.

Kate:
And actually, one thing we haven't mentioned is one of your team members is doing quite a big thing for Greenfingers next year isn’t he?

Nige:
Yeah, Matt and his wife. I hope he won't mind me saying this, but he’s got a significant birthday. So it's 25 years since he was 25 next year. And him and his wife, Nicola, are part of the Kilimanjaro team.

Kate:
Amazing.

Nigel:
So you know, we're offering moral support back from the office in Derby.

Kate:
Whilst eating cake.

Nigel:
Yes. Right.

Kate:
Well, that's brilliant.

Phil:
And I think that just about wraps things up. So, thank you so much, Nigel, for coming in and having a chat with us, giving us the story about what Sipcam’s up to. It's been, really fascinating.

Nigel:
My pleasure. Keep up the good work. And I genuinely mean that.

Kate:
Thank you

Phil:
Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Please do subscribe, like and review us on your podcast platform of choice – it only takes a moment, and it helps us to make the podcast possible. If you found this episode useful, do spread the word and share it with your colleagues. Signing up to our mailing list at theunderground.fm will mean that you’ll receive insight and news and new episodes, straight to your inbox.

The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.