Phil:
Hi and welcome to The underground. The official podcast partner of Glee 2025. Garden centres are so much more now than they have ever been, with giftware, pet departments, furniture, food halls and cafés. In this episode of the podcast we speak with Paul Pleydell of Pleydell Smithyman about what makes a successful garden centre and Barry Knight from the Full Range about the importance of getting the food offering right in your garden centre.

Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul:
I'm very pleased to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Kate:
Good morning Paul.

Paul:
Morning, Kate, happy to be here.

Phil:
So, Paul, why don't we start off for anyone who doesn't know who you are? Can you just describe to me what, a design and business consultancy bring to a garden centre project beyond, say, the drawings? And where do you add the most value?

Paul:
Okay. No, that's a that's a great question. What we're all about is taking people on a journey from, from A to B, a being where they are now and B being where they want to get to in future. And we build that around a series of questions. The first of those questions is where are you now?
Really understand the existing business and its foundation. The second question is what does success look like? So actually, understanding where the business wants to get to. And the third question follows that is how do we get there? Creating a sort of a roadmap to follow through, but also a little fourth question, which is quite important is what might stop us doing that?
So it's actually understanding what the hurdles and the barriers might be. So we're all about that process. And I think in terms of where we add value – drawings are just one of the things we happen to do - but where we add value is all about, helping people to recognise and sort of activate the opportunities to grow their business, increase their profits to get bigger and better, basically, we help them to get really, really meaningful planning approvals so they can do that.
And then the third thing I think where we offer a lot of value is doing the things that people who run garden centres and similar businesses can't do, which is the creative and the technical. So, we've got a clever bunch of people that sit behind me, who I take credit for (no, no, no -I love them to bits.) But they, they are actually delivering those technical services that the, our clients wouldn't be able to do. So, those are probably the areas where we add best value I would say.

Phil:
Okay.

Kate:
It's a just a small question here, Paul. What's the biggest shift you've seen in garden centre retail in 2025?

Paul:
I would say in 2025 - we've got a little bit to go yet, haven’t we? But it's probably been I would use the word an awakening. I think what's happened is that a lot of operators have recognised that rather than selling a little bit of shortbread or whatever it might be, which is wonderful, by the way, that there is a lot more opportunity in the food sector.
Particularly if they work more towards a sort of food hall offer or a sort of farm shop style offer, delivering really great results, delivering good profits and softening out, or rather flattening that curve, not flattening, but slowly lifting - keeping the curve even during the year. I don’t think you can flatten the curve, can you?

Phil:
So is that like evening out those peaks and troughs?

Paul
Evening out the peaks and troughs. That's what I was trying to say. And you did much more eloquently than I did Phil, so thank you.

Kate:
Just following on from that. Isn't that what they're doing anyway? Isn’t it just a bit of a no brainer that food is the way to go? Or are you finding that people still haven't quite got there yet?

Paul:
I think there's probably two points there. I say that and think of the third, but we've had a wonderful industry full of some really fantastic people who are driving their businesses really hard. They are multifaceted businesses, and they're not always all over all those aspects. And so, what we come in with is a fresh pair of eyes and we help them to identify opportunities, where there’s headroom to grow and those sorts of things.
So, I think it’s about that mostly I would say that ability for us to come in and, identify opportunities for growth, yeah.

Phil:
Okay. So, when you're talking to a garden centre owner, how do you, sort of help them decide between extending their space and sort of making their space work that much harder?

Paul:
I think there's a very simple answer to that is we would never advocate them enlarging their space until we'd made sure they were making the very best use of the space they've got. My little sort of trite phrase for that is make it better before you make it bigger. Because otherwise what you end up with is a bigger garden centre that's still underperforming. And that wouldn't be sensible in business terms or financial terms, in terms of capital invested or return on investment. So yeah, definitely sweat what you've got. And that comes back to my earlier, question about what does success look like? and all those things. But before that, the question of where are you now? understand the foundations you're working from. Understand every department in your business. Understand whether it's performing to its full potential. And this is where we bring an external view that other, a lot of garden centres don't have. They might be using HTA or GCA barometers of trade and data, which is wonderful stuff and it's great the industry we share so well, but what we are able to do is benchmark them against specific businesses that are comparable to them, to really find out that they've got a 25% opportunity to grow their houseplant sales because they're underperforming. And we can analyse why that is and help them to deliver that.

Phil:
So, is that in line with, say, the GCA as well – the Garden Centre Association, because they do benchmarking as well, don't they?
Yes, they do. And they have a barometer of trade, which is, fiercely guarded by the members, as you're probably aware. What we do is we have our own data from all the, all the businesses we work with, and we, we're able to use that to, to assess a business and really understand where they are doing well and where they have an opportunity, which is a phrase I was going to use a minute ago, to it's a thing I call EBI. They could they could be Even Better If. So, most of the businesses are doing a great job out there. We go in and help them to be even better, to add value to go further than they are already. So, definitely sweat what you've got, before you build more. Certainly, the way to go.

Kate:
Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm going to ask a question, which is a very Phil question. I have to apologise, Phil. I'm not quite sure what ROI means?

Phil:
Return On Investment.

Kate:
Ah, there we go. Okay. So talk us through your, return on investment model Paul, for major projects. How do you prove a compelling business case?

Paul:
I think I'd probably start there by saying I don't think our job is to prove a compelling business case. I think that sounds a little bit Alan Sugar - the Apprentice. You have to pitch to these people that we're going to sell them something they don't want? That's not us at all. What we do is we listen very carefully, and we talk to people and listen very carefully to where they are. And we understand back to my questions again, which are so important. What does success look like? And if success is getting out of this business in two years, we certainly wouldn't be advising them to build a big extension and everything else. We'd start by saying, can we give them some more meaningful planning approvals, enhance the equity value that help the sale value.
If it's a leasehold site, we'd encourage them to probably invest low and early so you get maximum opportunity to pay it back because it's not on your balance sheet in the long term. And also, you don't want to overspend on a site that's actually not yours. Other people will be looking at, if it's a family business, you often get multiple generations who have got, mouths that need feeding - there's a lot of money is needed in these sort of multi-generational businesses.
And quite often we start by looking at how much money is required from a business, and then we build a case back from that, as to what we need to do to the business to deliver that. So that's a very much a profit and loss focussed business. And therefore we look at really a good, strong, immediate returns. Other people are taking a much more strategic and successional view, and they're thinking about the value of their business on the balance sheet, and therefore they will be happy to invest capital and take a much longer, longer term view on it. So, in a way, I think what I'm saying is every project we do is different. Everyone is bespoke, and if you go in there with a one size fits all and try and sell it. Well, we're, delighted to be, celebrating our 30th anniversary this year, and you don't get there by not listening to people.

Kate:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul:
I hope that makes sense.

Kate:
Yeah. If it's compelling, then you shouldn't have to prove it. It should kind of speak for itself as well, shouldn’t it?

Paul:
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Very much so.

Phil:
So you've managed to, run the numbers and you decided that you're going to create a large infrastructure project, and it's very exciting. How do you make sure that the company can still operate while they're still doing this building and extending the premises?

Paul:
Well, part of the process that we work through, and I'm at risk of repeating myself here, but understanding where someone is, creating a vision with them for their business moving forward. We will then create a masterplan, a drawing that shows the physical change that’s going to take place on their site. And I'm a great believer in incremental growth in the business and incremental investment.
So you put some capital in, you build your turnover to match it, and you work your way up. I'm gesturing with my hands here when I'm talking into a microphone!

Phil:
That’s fine. We're on video as well.

Paul:
So that's what it's like okay. So you work it up incrementally. And what we would nearly always do is a phasing plan, and work out which areas are the most important ones, to use the cliché the sort of low hanging fruit, things that are going to deliver the best return and hopefully then generate the capital to help pay for the later phases.
So, it's all about quite a clever strategic model that you then deliver step by step. Sometimes that might have 2 or 3 phases in. Sometimes, I did one some years back that had 13 stages in it.

Phil:
Right? Wow.

Paul:
But and I'm not sure we've ever got to stage 13 because they probably, the other things, delivered well in the start.

Phil:
So what sort of time period are we talking about for that, for a project like this? I appreciate that they vary considerably.

Paul:
I think the main thing which we might come on to talk about hopefully this morning, is the delay that's caused by planning.
So, we can work quite effectively in terms of producing an initial strategy, which, over a few months that's usually done. So, people have time to get used to the idea, grow with it, and really have time to think about if you go too fast, people can look back at, oh, I didn't have a chance to absorb.
If you go to slowly use up momentum and you lose the thinking. So that stage is quite important. You then get into a stage where you're looking at and getting a meaningful planning permission delivered. We are looking at some projects over in Northern Ireland at the moment. Submit a planning application there, if you're lucky, you get a decision within 53 weeks.

Phil:
Oh wow.

Paul:
Just over a year.

Kate:
Oh my goodness.

Paul:
And they have a process before that where you need to do an exhibition about your project. And then you have to wait three months after that exhibition before you can submit your planning application. So straightaway you're hearing from me 15 months just in the planning process. That's before you prepared the planning application and dealt with any conditions that come at the back end of it.
So, I would say probably the message that comes out of this is if you're thinking of making a change, start straightaway, have an early conversation. If nothing else, come and talk to us. And just have the conversation about timescales. There's no obligation. We're always here to help people. We're very close to GCA and HTA, and we love to just support members on that journey and just give them, hopefully a little bit of wisdom that just helps to steer them through that process. So, yeah.

Kate:
So they're called garden centres. But non gardening departments often outperform plants on margin per square metre. Yet plants are the lifeblood of a good garden centre. Well, they are for me anyway. So how do you strike a value versus profit balance in layout and range?

Paul:
I think that's one of the biggest challenges at the moment. As a result of the budget last autumn, there's a lot of pressure on, people's staffing costs in particular, as we're all aware that nothing, nothing exciting there. We have been approached by quite a few clients since that budget. Not saying we'd like to extend our garden centre, do this, build a restaurant, blah blah blah blah all those things.
How do I restore my profits? People are giving us a number and saying, I need to put £140,000 back onto my bottom line because it's gone. I need to put £250,000. There's quite a strong accountancy drive, let's call it, behind the decision making within the garden centre at the moment. And that conflicts with the idea of being true and passionate about plants, which we, we all are.
And one of the things we talk about, I mentioned it briefly earlier, is we help people to build a vision for their business. Once you understand what the vision for the business is, then you can make strong decisions that tie in with that business. If we took and I won't name names, but a couple of centres, one, which is maybe more destination based, family oriented, then plants will be part of their offer, but they won't be a strong part. Other people who've grown from a nursery background and are passionate about plants, plants will be the core of their business. And as you grow a business, which is what we're about, one of the biggest risks for the plant-based business is that plants get diluted, other things get bigger and start to swallow them up. The range of plants that you sell, if you if you're doing it properly, shouldn't grow massively as the centre grows the stock turn should grow on that.
So, it's about being true to your values, true to your vision. And there are some clients we have who have large centres, but they are absolutely adamant that when the customer walks in through the front door, they will be met by horticulture, they'll be met by gardening, and they'll be met by the story that that business wants to tell.
And I think that's quite key. So, coming back to your point, margin is good on plants, but sales per square metre, which we use to benchmark businesses is actually a lot higher on non-gardening products typically. So therefore, there's an accountancy pressure to go for non-gardening products if that makes sense?

Kate:
Yeah of course.

Kate:
Yeah. A difficult one.

Paul:
It is. It's a balancing act. And it's again it's different for every business. But just being true to your business and your values is probably the key point there.

Kate:
Yeah, I mean, it's obvious when you look around Glee as well, how much the non-gardening departments are coming up and up and up, because there's a lot of things around here that have absolutely nothing to do with, with plants.

Paul:
And yeah. And that is… it's not a risk. It's a fact. And I think it's something I was talking about at an event last week. What type of garden centre are you? And that's a very simple question to ask yourself. Stare in the mirror. Work that one out. Once you've worked that one out, your decision making will become a lot easier.

Phil:
Absolutely. Paul, I noticed, you wrote an article fairly recently about, the changing and uncertain weather patterns that we're getting in in the UK now. How can you make sure that, or so what are the weather resilient actions that a garden centre can take to provide fast return on investment?

Paul:
I think the key thing about this is all about, experience and making sure the customer has a fantastic experience when they visit. And one of the things we need to do there is to make sure they are warm enough or cool enough, depending on what the weather's doing. So, there are some boring but very practical things to do with how your centre actually functions, from a heating and ventilation point of view.
We are seeing a lot more people pushing forward for extended covered areas. They're bringing in, retractable roof buildings and covered areas and that seems to be… I can think of quite a few projects, probably half a dozen we're looking at, at the moment where that is part of the conversation. So you're creating an all-weather shopping environment.

Kate:
Wimbledon Centre Court.

Phil:
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Paul:
A brilliant example. Yes. Yeah. The other thing is, I think to focus on the things that are all year round, and I don't want to sound like I'm banging on about food as I saw my earlier, but food and cafes are two areas where you can even out those curves during the year. So that's an area I think is important to focus on.
And the other one, which is back to your point earlier Kate about, how do you hang on to plants as your core and how do you diversify maybe? We're finding things like, children's indoor play - if it suits your business model - are a fantastic thing. They're indoor, they're all year round, and they make an obscene amount of net trading profit on the bottom line.

Kate:
Really?

Paul:
Yeah. Really obscene.

Phil:
Wow. Oh, that's really interesting.

Paul:
So, if someone said to you, oh, you can spend about the same on a building as you might spend for your garden centre shop, you might spend about the same fitting it out as you might on shop fitting, but the net trading profit from it might be around 35 to 40%. Net trading not gross.

Phil:
Wow.

Paul:
Then people go: indoor play, I don't want indoor play - How much? And then their mood shifts. But that is a really good all year round indoor attraction. It flattens out, particularly in school holidays as summer holidays you start to even out. So, I think it comes back to what we were talking about earlier. We're here to add value to people's businesses and we're looking at places to do that. And we don't want to sort of sound like we're foisting ideas upon people because every time we stop and listen and we come up with the right mix of ingredients that suit that particular site, but play is a really interesting one for weatherproofing.

Phil:
Yeah, that's staggering, isn't it?

Paul:
It is, it is. Most people when they hear that go: are you sure? Yes, we've got case studies and projects where that's happening, so, yeah.

Kate:
But I suppose the positive thing for me is that maybe if you get children within the centre then you can expand to garden clubs, so you can hopefully try and relate it more to the core business as well.

Paul:
Yes. And it's something that we're seeing a lot more of that is attracting people in through events and I don't want to just do that sort of rather crass thing by saying, just pop Peppa Pig out in the car park, and everyone turns out. But they will. So why not? let's think about ways in which we can get a younger audience in, drive new footfall.
For many, many years now, I've been talking about the concept of reaching down. I think Warren Haskins famously many years ago said: our customers are dying, get us some new ones. which I think is a lovely, lovely phrase.
But the population is ageing, it’s contracting in certain age groups. So, we ought to be reaching down and reaching to younger people and starting to introduce people to garden centres at a much earlier age. And I don't mean the children there, I mean the young mums and dads - well perhaps the children as well, it might be them.
So it's certainly… let's go for a younger audience is what I'm looking for.

Phil:
Yeah, that's really interesting. You're almost talking about community building aren’t you?

Paul:
Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I'm talking here at the show on Thursday, and one of the things I'm talking about is, how to make yourself, an attraction, a place that people want to come. And there's a lovely phrase that, Knight’s garden centres had many, many years ago on their website. It wasn't a set of furniture saying it was £299 or something.
It was a driftwood sign, and on it, it just said: “friends meet here”. And I thought that was beautiful because you realise that you're coming to a garden centre that cares about people. And the focus going forward – and this is going to sound a very strange thing to say, sitting at a trade show with great halls full of products - But the focus is going to be about people, not about products. Let's get let's get the people in. Let's make sure the people are happy. That's great. Joy and delight, maybe laughter, then the shopping will follow. And that and that's the way around. I think we need to be moving.

Kate:
Yeah, it’s creating a lifestyle.

Paul:
Yes. And it's creating somewhere that people want to come back to, that they want to talk about with their friends. They want to be proud of the fact they shop there. There is absolutely no way we can compete head on against the internet in terms of choice. So, what we've got to do is take those aspects which aren't about, choice and actually deliver on those to the best of our ability. And that's, that's where we're going to be successful.

Phil:
Brilliant.

Kate:
If you had to pick one low CapEx intervention to protect spring sales from being a washout – ooh, this is a tough one - what would it be?

Paul:
It is a tough one, but it's also…

Kate:
indoor play.

Paul:
No, it's an easy one in a different way. And people are familiar with Pleydell Smithyman as a business that helps people to build and expand – someone actually said to me recently, I don't need a Pleydell project. And I was like, what the hell is that?
You know? We're not about building big shiny boxes. We're actually about improving businesses. And one of the areas that we're looking at, at the moment for people is: using the data they get from their EPOS system, and from that to their management accounts to drive their decision making. And there's a lot of room in there. We're also encouraging them to do things like, look at their staffing rotas and how they structure how they put people into the business from the staff team point of view to look at how they can manage some of the overheads and costs on that and what goes through.
So, it's a great industry. It's been kind to so many people and it's been growing so well for decades. And I walked into Glee this morning and someone said to me, when did you first come to Glee? And I said, it's either 39 or 40 years ago. And it's a wonderful industry to be in full of lovely people. But as I said earlier, it's multifaceted and they are trying to juggle a whole load of influences and so at the moment, we're having to encourage people to just be a bit smarter, or we’re actually saying to them, just let us sort that out for you so we can look from an operational point of view, at areas where they can start to restore profit. Again, making something better before they make it bigger.
So, in terms of interventions which are low CapEx, I would say that looking hard at your numbers, your data, and making decisions based on that, it's a bit dull, but it's really important. The other thing I would say is, the flip side to that is just make sure you're doing things you're memorable for. If you've got a cafe, let's have a signature dish that you're famous for. In that, let's have a lemon meringue pie that's, a foot high or something, or…

Kate:
Massive scones.

Paul:
Yeah, massive scones, or scones with Mars Bars in, which I've seen in a garden centre.

Kate:
Oh, no! I'm Devon, that’s heresy!

Paul:
We’re not going to do the jam and cream discussion! But, be famous for things, I think is important. And then the other thing that we're looking at is, is getting people in, for different reasons. I mentioned about events and attractions. There are some really good ways of making quite a lot of money without putting a lot of capital in and driving footfall.
So, again, it's looking at the right ingredients for your business and seeing what works.

Phil:
So you might have just answered my next question.

Paul
Oh, sorry!

Phil:
No, that's fine. I'm just going to ask you. So, what separates a cafe that from being nice to have to one that actually drives a business forwards?

Paul:
Yeah, I probably covered that a little bit in what I've just said, but I would say if you've got a cafe that's nice to have, it's not nice to have, because you're not behind it.

Kate:
Right.

Phil:
You haven't got it there for the right reasons. People sometimes say; oh yes it drives footfall. Yeah, they can drive football. It should also make - did I say football their other than footfall I do apologise? It should also make money for you. You know it needs to be a profit centre. They are brilliant footfall drivers, cafes. They bring people into the centre, position them in the right place. You increase your retail sales.
But they've got to be, they've got to be good at what they do - and nice to have, I don't think, if anyone says me, it's a nice to have then, we need to have some strong words with them to make sure we get you on the right track.

Kate:
Haven't you got to be a little bit careful with cafes, though, because I've been to a couple of garden centres where the cafes are so posh, are so kind of gourmet and expensive, that they stopped me going back to that garden centre. Can you not be at risk of just maybe pushing it too far?

Paul:
I think there's the obvious thing there is understanding your market and making sure the demographic that surrounds you, the customers that come in, you come, you make sure you're pitching in the right place. There's no point trying to be the Ritz in some way where there isn't the money to support that. So understanding is very key.
We did a project a while back for, Manchester City Council, which was for, putting commercial facilities into a park in south Manchester, sorry, so slightly away from garden centres. But, we had some amazing data from a company called Huck that showed us the footfall coming into the park. And this is good for garden centres as well. When they were arriving, how long they stayed, how long they visited. We then mapped that against postcodes and they weren't coming from the surrounding area, which everyone perceived - well the area is was Wythenshawe. And it was often referred to as the largest council estate in Europe. So, the perception is your catering office shouldn't be too high. When we mapped where the people came from, they were coming from the North Cheshire villages to visit. So, it was smashed avocado rather than burger and chips was actually the right place and the right sort of companies that we needed to attract in there.
So, I think it's important in that way. I think the other part of it, which and we all have this conversation nowadays, when did a starter in the pub become £10 or £12.

Kate:
Yeah, absolutely.

Paul:
And we all do. We open the menu and expect it to be £5 or £6 and it's not. So, people are paying a lot to eat out, if they're paying a lot to eat out, they are expecting it to be a treat. They want to be in an excellent environment. So, in a way you're competing against all the other catering outlets in your area with a garden centre, you're not competing against other garden centres.

Kate:
No, that's true.

Paul:
And you're competing with the simplicity of an air fryer at home. So why should people get up and come to you? That's what you've got to be doing, and you've got to make sure you're delivering something that's really special and important. And yes, some people might price themselves out. I think probably as a nation, we've not been used to inflation for a long time. Or sorry, not used to price rises going up in the way they are.
And so, we're, I think everyone's catching up mentally with where - when they open a menu in a pub what it actually says. And so, the same for garden centres. But also there's an, an understanding hopefully that you need to get across to the customers that, we're offering fantastic service here. It's expensive to run a set up like this. Staffing costs in cafes and restaurants and garden centres are rocketing at the moment, and people are working really, really hard to try and keep those down. But make sure the team are looked after as well. There's some wonderful things on the WhatsApp groups. If people aren't on those, they should subscribe to them. Because the people on there the other day, were talking about benefits you give to your staff in the cafes. Yeah. Do they get free meals? Do they get discount? What if their family come in? And it was lovely because they were they were looking at how to support, reward and retain fantastic people. And that's what our industry is all about.

Kate:
That’s good to hear. Yeah that's good to hear that's happening.

Phil:
So, if a, if a garden centre hasn't got the funds or the backing to, start a big infrastructure project, can you give me like three things that would usually deliver the biggest uplift?

Paul:
Yes, definitely. I think the key thing is, and I apologise, I'm touching on something I mentioned earlier, but it's looking at, new profit centres that you can bring in that would work. But before you do that, everyone's at Glee today, and I probably won't make it out of this room, if I say this now, but everyone's here buying new and exciting products.
Put them in their garden centre. What they're not very good at is chopping the tail off. So they add and they lead and they build. But you need to take things off the back of that. So I'm a great advocate in looking very hard at how you use the space in the garden centre, which is why when we benchmark, we understand sales per square metre, the performance of every square metre of your garden centre floor. What is it doing for your business? How is it working? Once we understand that, we can then start to contract areas, make changes, which will open up space for bringing new profit centres in. Which brings me back to that idea about bringing in food. I mean, I'll throw a statistic at you broadly, but if you put a food hall with a butchers into a garden centre.
It will turnover - run well - in excess of £6,000 a square metre.
If I tell you that a typical garden centre average uses about £1500 from a shop or maybe £1800. So, building costs the same. And, yeah, there are some compelling arguments for actually starting to shuffle the deck a little bit to bring in things, which comes back to your earlier point Kate about, plants getting the bum end of the deal, basically. And so you have to fight for plants. So, these are the these are the conflicts that are going on at the moment. So, I think, I think that would be my main thing to mention there. Yeah. Looking at range, looking at, high performing departments and just being a little bit more brutal about how you make decisions on what you stock.

Kate:
Yes. That that box of feed that's at the back that's covered in dust maybe, you know.

Paul:
Yeah. Exactly that. Yes. And the dust test, run a finger over the top is actually a really good one to see things that haven't been there long enough. And, we've recently done it actually with food for someone. We've looked at their food ranges, and we recognise that in the old Pareto principle, you know 20% of products are delivering 80% of the outcome. Let's get rid of some of that, the time wasters and, you can start to then bring in fresh and new things which increases the appeal for customers.

Kate:
We have touched on this again, garden centres are in a battle with online retail. What do you see as the biggest influencers to drive footfall into store? We've talked about cafes, butchers. I think we've kind of covered this one. Is there anything else?

Phil:
Children's play.

Kate:
Children’s play, yeah?

Paul:
I think the let's put an overarching title on this. It's experience. Experience and experience. That's what it needs to be. People need to be coming in because you're doing something that special. I often pose a question to our clients, to say, but someone's come to visit your garden centre when they go away and they bump into a friend that evening or next day, what are they going to say to them?
I went to Phil's Garden centre and guess what? How do we finish that sentence? And if you can't finish that sentence, you're not doing something compelling and exciting, that's an experience for your customers. So, build yourself some good answers to that question and then tell people about them. Get out there and actually voice that through socials, through whatever marketing and promotional medias you use. But let people know why it’s a fantastic place for those people to be and that's got to be the key going forward.

Kate:
Thank you so much Paul, for coming to talk to us.

Paul:
My pleasure and have been great fun, I really enjoyed it.

Kate:
Oh good. And enjoy the rest of the show.

Paul:
Yeah that's great.

Phil:
All right. Take care Paul.

Paul:
Thank you both very much. Thank you.

Phil:
So, I’m here with Linda from the Greenfingers Charity. Linda, how are things going at the show?
Oh, really good. It's been a really great day today. It's been a bit busier today for us, great fun. I've caught up with loads of people. Yeah, it's been a pretty good day.
And, are you trying…. What's the aim of Greenfingers being here at Glee?

Linda:
It's a great place to connect and reconnect with our supporters. It's a bit of an interesting one. We're not selling anything, but it's just a real brand awareness exercise and just really catching up with friends, old friends and meeting new people. And, Yeah, I'm just building the Greenfingers brand.

Phil:
Okay. That's brilliant. And I understand that you've got a number of, projects which are nearing completion or a just completed. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those?

Linda:
Yeah, so we've got four new gardens that we're opening, over the next few weeks. We've got a really brilliant and a very exciting project at Chestnut Tree Hospice, which is a kitchen garden. And what's great about that, we're already seeing, fruit and vegetables being grown and picked and being cooked in the hospice and being enjoyed by the families there. So that's really exciting. We can't wait for that to officially open and see that.
Then we've got a great project that's been a long time in the making. It was a bit of a bit of a Covid challenge. So, it's really great to see the Gathering Heart Garden at Hope House come to life. And we know that children are already enjoying that garden. And so, it would be really nice to sort of sign that one off and let the hospice enjoy it and let the children enjoy it. Yeah.

Phil:
Fantastic. And I understand that next year there's a big challenge going on by some people who are raising funds for Greenfingers, can you tell us a little bit about that as well?

Linda:
Yeah, so we've got 18 people, mostly from the gardening industry, trekking Kilimanjaro. It's going to be an amazing challenge. We're hoping they're going to raise enough money to fund an entire Greenfingers garden, which would be amazing. There are still places available, so if anybody wants to do it, it's not too late to sign up.

Phil:
I think I'd need to lose a few pounds before I did that.

Linda:
Same here. But no, it's going to be a real… for Greenfingers it's a completely different, proposition. And I think it's going to be a really exciting one for the industry, seeing all those walkers come together to train together and to experience a once in a lifetime challenge. I think they’re going to make memories that will last an absolute lifetime.

Phil:
Well, thanks very much for chatting to us, Linda, and I wish you the best for the rest of the show.

Linda:
Thanks Phil, it’s always great to chat with you and, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing you at garden opening sometime soon.

Phil:
Exactly. All right. Thank you.

I'm absolutely delighted to welcome onto the show. Barry Knight from the full range: Hi. Welcome, Barry.

Barry:
Hi, Phil, great to be here. Thanks for having me along.

Kate:
Hi Barry, good to meet you.

Barry:
Yeah, you too. Thank you.

Phil:
So, Barry, maybe we could start by just telling. For anybody who's unfamiliar with the full range, can you just give us a quick intro into the kind of work that you do with garden centres?

Barry:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, we work with some various different sectors, but in garden centre world we work with around 55, independent garden centres. We help support with their costs, specifically in the food areas. So, kitchen GP, we would help support our clients to achieve their margins there. So, we would recommend which suppliers to use, which products to use.
We would sort of offer a free benchmarking, service to any potential customer, and we would just show them what potential savings they could have by tapping into buying power UK wide. So, we would tend to buy more than any, independent operator would ever be able to buy. So, they can tap into our buying power.

Kate:
So, you work with a broad range of clients, not just garden centres, but what makes the garden sector so interesting from a food and hospitality perspective?

Barry:
Yeah, I think there are a few things, I think, if you go back, not so long ago, maybe 1990s garden centres were very much plants and very sort of light touch, sort of gardening, items. And if you fast forward to now, into 2020s and where we are now, you've got bustling food halls, you've got brand partnerships, you've got all year-round destinations.
So, I don't think there's any other sector that we are involved in that has pivoted their businesses so much to focus on food. So, for us that's really exciting obviously. But what that brings with it is a lot of potentially, owners who have had real knowledge in the retail space and in gardening, but not that same specialism in food and beverage.
So, we've found that we can add a lot more value to, garden centres specifically just with the knowledge that we have. And in other areas, it's not just procurement that we would help with, but we would help with, information on allergies, food safety, wastage, all of the other elements as well, just to make that really, really work.
I think, if you look at where we are now, there's various stats that show that, it's around 20% or roughly 1 in 5 visitors to Garden Centres now uses the food outlets. So, when you consider where we were to where we are now, it is such a key part to the business. But here at Glee, we probably, food, maybe represents, I'm guessing less than 1% of the average…

Kate:
That is interesting, yeah.

Barry:
Yeah. So, for us, it's a really exciting opportunity to, to bring something new to Glee and to bring something new to the garden centre owners that are visiting the show.

Phil:
You mentioned there in your answer about the fact that over the years, garden centres have had to diversify and food has become more important and involved within a garden centre, not just cafes, but food halls and that side of things as well. So how critical do you think food is to a garden centres future?

Barry:
Yeah, I think it's incredibly important. I think if you look at the numbers, there's roughly 20% now of the income is from a food outlet within a Garden Centre.

Kate:
20%? Gosh.

Barry:
Yeah. And really busy outlets where there's, larger areas for food and restaurant areas that could be 20, 30%. Also, if you look at the margin mix.
So, food should be the highest margin area in a garden centre. If you do food properly, you know you should be earning 70% plus margin.

Phil:
Wow.

Barry:
So, when you consider the other areas that you sell in the retail space, you know where 50% is a good margin. And obviously when you get into barbecues and real sort of branded, race to the bottom stuff, you're probably looking at a lot less than that. So having that there is really important. I think also the customer mix so there's, there's far more younger families now that are visiting garden centres. Again, younger families are much more likely to visit a food outlet.
So I mentioned there's an average there of 1 in 5. It's actually 1 in 4 younger families would visit a food outlet. And they're more likely to stay for longer. And yeah, so I think, the demographic change, the margin change I think obviously gardening is very seasonal, but hospitality isn’t. So, I think that's really important to bear in mind as well.

Phil:
Yeah. You mentioned about sort of the profit that's, that's generated by the food outlets within a garden centre. And earlier you talked about the importance of benchmarking, how important is that then? Because I can see that, understanding what you should be able to generate from a food outlet being quite important for a garden centre to understand.

Barry:
Yeah, absolutely. I think the garden centres owners that we deal with, I'm pretty sure every single one can tell you what a 40ft container costs, to bring garden furniture in. But not maybe as many would be able to tell you what a kilo of coffee beans would be, or a pint of milk, you know?
So, I think that's where we have that knowledge. We’re in that sort of detail every day of every week. And I think ultimately there have been so many challenges in food over the years that have impacted the price. If you go back to Covid, if you go back to Brexit, if you look at the conflict with Russia / Ukraine, each one of those has had a major impact on food costs.
And clearly now with staff costs, living wage NI contributions, they all have a flow through from manufacturers to suppliers to the outlets. So, I think more than ever now you have a world where, operators don't really know what the true value of a product is, either to them and then to their customers. So, having that nailed down in terms of what you should pay and what you should charge, the margin is absolutely still, achievable.
But you need to know the world that you're in. You need to have that expertise.

Kate:
So obviously you're going to be biased. But why is food such a powerful driver of footfall? You know, dwell time and spend – especially as we said this retail space isn't a traditional food space?

Barry:
Yeah, I think who doesn't love food? I think it doesn't matter if you're, post family, pre family, younger, or older. I know from personal experience, when we go anywhere now, we have two 13-year-old kids at home (twins), and one of the first questions they ask will ever be going is what are we going to have to eat? It's just so… Everybody has a personal opinion on it. So, whether that's a food hall or whether that's a retail space, I think dwell time will always be more because you have so many more opinions on it. I think maybe in a garden centre setting, you maybe have kids that feel like they're getting taken along there if they go to the shops or they go to something else.
But when the when they see food, they have they have a passion for it, something they understand at any age. So yeah, I think that's really important. And I think, the really successful operators now combine both. They combine the retail space with the food hall. So, so many places now, if you see something that, if you have a meal that you really enjoy or you have a coffee you really enjoy, you can go next door and buy, one of the ingredients…

Kate:
The coffee

Barry:
Yeah, the coffee beans from the from the retail space. So, you're really making those spaces work together as well, which is bringing loyalty. It's bringing more dwell time. People that spend longer in the garden centre are more likely to spend in the garden centre.

Kate:
That was going to be my point. Yeah. Because I'm a plants person. So, for me, it's so important to get people into the garden centre, but not just to sit in the cafe and then go straight home again. It's so important to kind of have that journey. So, the cafe isn't the first thing there, they've got to walk through the garden centre. So, it is for me it's about trying to make it an integral part of the garden centre rather than as a separate part, that's what's important for me anyway.

Barry:
Yeah. And I think if you talk to garden centre owners now, they would all recognise that they have a good percentage of the customers that come to them who aren't gardeners. And I'm not sure there are so many other businesses that would have people who aren't interested in the core function of that business, that would still visit. So, I think for me, that also goes back to the question about why food is so important. Because if you can bring a) you can bring in a different audience, and you can then potentially get them interested in your core function, which they maybe wasn't the intention for the visit.

Kate:
So that's a win win, well it should be.

Barry:
Yeah.

Phil:
There's a great quote and I can't think of who told us it. But somebody mentioned it on the podcast and it was a garden centre owner who said it, and that was: our customers garden 2 or 3 times a year, but they eat every single day.

Barry:
Yeah. It’s like I say, gardening is seasonal and hospitality is not, so you can have something that really supports your business through those, off peak months.

Kate:
The rainy days. Yeah.

Phil:
So, for a garden centre who's thinking about introducing food for the first time into their centre, what should they be thinking about? What sort of questions should they be asking?

Barry:
I think probably a few things. I think, is the main reason for introducing food to enhance your offer to your existing customers? Is it to potentially bring a different type of customer, a more desired visit so that you don't currently have? What would then be required to make that work for the current audience or the new audience?
Is it quality? Is it convenience? Is it an element of both? Then what type of service works best for that setting? Is it table service, is it a service counter, is it a mix of both? We see garden centres now that have you can go to the right and you can have table service, you can go to the left and you can have a servery counter.
So, there's been a real mix of change. Whereas before I think garden centres were very much traditionally a servery where you started and worked left to right, and got to the till point. And now you can have a seat and get more of a restaurant experience. So, what's right for you in that sense? What works best for the customer base and for the people that you can employ in that particular area?
Then I think it's really important to engage with potential partners and suppliers. If you don't have that knowledge, just ask those questions. I think that's so important in any area, there's people out there who have the knowledge that you don't. So, whether that be a business like ours, who works with lots of different independents and can share that experience and that data of what's worked elsewhere, or whether that be suppliers, just asking a simple question to one of the main wholesalers.
What do you sell most of to garden centres. what is your top 100? What then fits back into that demographic that I mentioned. What works best within the service that we've decided would be best for our business setting. And then, probably - personal opinion this on one - but let's serve a good cup of coffee as well.
I think, I mentioned earlier the margin that you can make on food; if you get a hot drinks offer right: teas, coffees, hot chocolates, that will be the highest margin that you make. But if the customer experience isn't good, they're not going to come back for that cup of coffee, you know? So maybe think about a traditional machine as opposed to bean to cup, think more about quality over convenience when it comes to the things that will be part of everybody's tray.
But again, that's personal opinion. I know there's a lot of operators that have gone down more of a convenience route to just push a button, to keep flowing.

Phil:
Speed.

Kate:
So how important is it for you - I mean you call yourself The Full Range - so to match the food offer to the kind of customer base that is there. There isn't one size fits all, you've talked about the push button machines as opposed to the barista, so how do you go about doing this? Is that something you offer?

Barry:
Yeah, I think I mean, there's a real opportunity with fit where it doesn't have to be so exclusive to one demographic. You can make it really inclusive, and you don't have to put a lot of complexity behind things. You don't have to put a lot more people in. You can have a real mix of products that will bring that extra audience. So, I think it's really, really important to cater to your core audience - of course, with anything that you do.
But by introducing maybe, a really good kids menu, you might bring that younger audience in. You know that that younger audience is more likely to spend money in the food hall. So think about a kids menu, think about smoothies, and as I say, think about things like, a cup of coffee and different things like that, just what's going to bring people back and really bring people into that area. So, yeah, I think there's an opportunity to focus on your core, but also, use food as a way to extend that into new areas as well.

Phil:
So are there any examples where being able to introduce food or match that food to the, the customers, where it’s really transforms a site? Is there one thing or multiple things?

Barry:
Yes. I think we have seen, we've seen a mix of customers who have introduced food. We've seen a mix of customers who have introduced new ideas, which has just elevated that offer. I think it's, with the space that most garden centres have now for a food offering, it is quite a large space.
So, you have a real ability to offer a good choice of products. So yeah, I think we've seen lots of examples. For me, the real key thing is - it all comes back to customer experience and feeling, a sense of value. I think, so if people feel like they get value now that could be a really high price point and a really high quality. That's value. Or it could be some middle ground where people feel like the price is fair and the food was good, you know. Yeah. So, I think there's been a lot of examples of people who over the years have just developed the range that they have or the products, that they have to expand.
And you've seen that in the numbers, that all plays into how much more food, contributes to revenue. That wouldn't happen if people weren't making those changes and making that, experience better for the customer.

Kate:
What separates a garden centre cafe that just does okay to one that becomes a genuine destination?

Barry:
Yeah, I think, customer experience, I think to get that customer experience right, it's attention to detail. I think, rather than focus, if you if you take the example of a family, I think you need to cater for that family. So, I've mentioned there, a kids option, allergies obviously are becoming a much more regular thing. When people go out, there's a much higher percentage of, diners who have some form of allergy. So, within that family, you need to consider that there may be a kid who's looking for a really good kids option, there may be a gluten allergy, a vegan allergy. So, just having simple things there, like a, like a good quality gluten free bread or more than one vegan cake option, would mean that family would be more likely to come back.
And it's that attention to detail that, for every 100 guests that you have, none of them felt like they've left shortchanged, or not being able to really enjoy the menu. So, I would say that's really important, I think, to become a genuine destination and be seen as a destination of quality. I think for me, you need to be doing things on a homemade basis,
It's not to say that that aren't fantastic, bought in products out there, there are - we have a stand here today that we're sharing with a wholesaler and they have some amazing products that you can just buy, and you don't have to worry about the consistency and, they will look great on a display, but obviously you need to be mindful that any bought in item can be replicated anywhere. So is somebody's going to see that as a real standout, if they see that product somewhere else that they visit. So, to be a true destination and be seen as a real destination of quality, I think you want to be doing things on a homemade basis, real attention to detail, focus on every customer that comes through the door.

Kate:
I mean, I've been to a lot of garden centres with my job, and there's one that just always sticks in my brain because it had the biggest scones I have ever seen. I mean, and they are ridiculous, they're a meal. And that's become the destination centre for the biggest scones. And, they've got this reputation.

Barry:
It becomes a competition. Yeah.

Kate:
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's great. I go there because of because of that. Or maybe I don't anymore, because of that!

Barry:
Well we have some brioche scones over on our stand. One of our, suppliers has brought in today and they look fantastic. I'm gluten free, so I can't even eat it, so you need to come over and tell me if they’re any good?

Kate
Oh, yeah.

Phil:
Definitely we’ll be over.

Kate:
Especially as I live in Devon now. So, you know.

Barry:
Well he’s got some clotted cream.

Kate:
Cream on first!

Phil:
So, Barry, there's growing pressure and it’s fair to say opportunity for garden centres to align their food offering with their own sustainability values. How can they do that without overcomplicating things?

Barry:
For me I would probably stick to three key areas. I think you can focus on service, you can focus on equipment, and you can focus on supply chain. They would be the quicker wins for me. So, I think from a service point of view, one of the biggest contributors to carbon is food waste. So, when you think of a servery counter, people always consider stacking that plate as high as possible.
So, work on portion control, try to make sure that you're not seeing a lot of food go back into the kitchen, because that's not good for anybody: costs, environment, customers, don't want to see other plates going back full, because they don't know how big that plate was, they just perceived that somebody hasn't eaten something.
So, for everyone that would be, from a service point of view really sort of focus on that. Look at removing plastic where you can so, a lot operators are now looking at things like the, the sauce pumps and different things like that, let's take away those little bits of plastic that you can have.

Kate:
Sachets.

Barry:
Yeah, that aren’t great.
From an equipment point of view, there are a lot of things that you can do. Maybe one example of that would be, a fryer, you can buy a fryer that's a conventional fryer, but you can buy one that will actively recycle the oil more, so you get more use out of that oil. It means you have less waste oil. And then for the waste oil that is generated, you've got, certain collectors that can turn that waste oil into to biodiesel and things, so you can work different solutions through different parts.
And then from a supply chain point of view, garden centres have a real opportunity to work locally, obviously. The retail spaces will be a lot of local artists, a lot of local producers that are there, you can do the same in the restaurant. You can find a real good local fruit and veg supplier that will work with a lot of local suppliers that will have local produce, but they'll also probably have, other local manufacturers that they have that are non-fruit and veg. So, you can buy from multiple local suppliers from one source. So, you only have one vehicle going there.

Phil:
And is that something that you would help with, or advise on?

Barry:
Yeah, absolutely. We as a business work very locally, so rather than have one national fruit and veg supplier, which would probably be the easiest way for us to manage one price for all, but actually it goes against what most people want to do. So, we work very regionally on produce, meat, dairy, which is what our customers want. So yeah, we can definitely help with local supply chain.
Garden centres also have a really unique opportunity to, outside of those true local products to be able to consolidate the remainder of their basket for what they need. It's difficult when it comes to hotels and restaurants because they have people who come and book late, they have guests that walk into the restaurant at 8 or 9 p.m. They don't really know what's coming, so they then end up having to order later from multiple suppliers, a lot more convenience.
But as a garden centre generally knows what their volume is by 4 p.m. each day, they've had the busy breakfast, the busy lunch, it’s before the cut off time with most of the suppliers, so, they've got a real opportunity to maybe have a two pronged attack on it.
One local supplier who can consolidate some local products and potentially one national supplier, which reduces the number of vehicles that are coming to you.
So, by consolidating, you also get the benefit of having a better price because obviously these suppliers will price on volumes - that's our world. So yeah, we can help on all of that.

Phil:
That's really interesting, I'd never even thought about that.

Kate:
No, not at all. So, we've talked about sustainability, but are there any other big trends that are shaping the future of food in garden centres?

Barry:
There's definitely more health focus. I think people are much more aware of what they're eating. They know what are sort of good calories and bad calories. I think obviously allergies, which we've spoken about, there are a lot more of them. There are now people who are now choosing to not eat specific food types as a choice, not as an allergy.
So, it's not even just allergies now, people have a vegan balanced lifestyle, pescatarian, they've seen the health benefits, they feel better. So, they’ve actively made choices to cut things out. So, I think, you see a lot of that.
I would say there's always going to be a home for, for comfort food. And I think, you're probably always going to sell a lot of steak pie.

Kate:
Cakes!

Barry
Yeah, and a lot of chips. That's always going to be there.

Phil:
Big scones.

Kate:
Big scones.

Barry:
Big scones.
But I think those things, in terms of, salads and quick convenience, and healthy options I think will always be there as I say, great kids menus - a lot of places it’s just chicken nuggets or chicken nuggets. So, you have a better choice to that, you’re always going to have the cake market, and that's always going to be there.

Kate:
That's me.

Barry:
So, make those… pile those strawberry tarts nice and high and make everything look as attractive as you can, definitely. And that's what garden centres are great at, I don't think I've walked into too many garden centres and not wanted to have a cake, you know? So, that's always going to be there.
But, yes, I as I say, I think allergies and health are probably two of the main areas now, are the developing areas.

Phil:
So, would you say there's like a real opportunity here for independent garden centres to outpace some of the chain garden centres, by being a bit more agile and imaginative?

Barry:
I don't think there's any doubt about that at all. I think, national chains will always make decisions at head office, and obviously they will have, regional managers who will have a say on that. But ultimately those decisions will be made from head office. They'll be made based on the greater good of that chain.
They won't necessarily be with that local consumers real passions at the heart of it. So, and they can sometimes be made more over cost than in quality, you know. So, I think having an independent local garden centre that really understands the customer, you should always win in that situation.
You might not always win on a price point because you know that buying power exists was the big chains, but as I say, it's all about customer experience. So, if you have a customer experience, attention to detail, the things I've highlighted has been probably the most important. You should always win in those two key areas and that should be, what the customer feels they get real value on.

Kate:
I like that.

Phil:
Listen, Barry, what a great way to end. Thank you so much for coming to speak to us today. It's been really fascinating to find out more about the full range, what you do for garden centres. It’s something that we don't really know that much about, Kates more…

Kate:
Apart from eating the cake.

Phil:
Exactly. So, it's been really good - thank you ever so much.

Barry:
Yeah. And thank you very much for having me along.

Kate:
Thanks Barry.

Phil:
Please do subscribe, like and review us on your podcast platform of choice – it only takes a moment, and it helps us to make the podcast possible. If you found this episode useful, do spread the word and share it with your colleagues. Signing up to our mailing list at theunderground.fm will mean that you’ll receive insight and news and new episodes, straight to your inbox.

The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.