Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now
The science behind ensuring you’re growing healthy plants is always moving forwards. In this episode of The Underground we catch up with Steve Harper, at the time of recording the relatively new, managing director at Grass Gains, and we also speak with Simon Taylor and Helen Thomas from Empathy by Plantworks.

Welcome, Steve.

Steve:
Thank you. Phil.

Kate:
Afternoon, Steve.

Steve:
Afternoon.

Phil:
Yes. So, welcome back to The Underground. You've been a guest before and with your previous roles with Southern Trident and with the Responsible Sourcing Scheme. But this is the first time you're joining us as the MD of Grass Gains. How's that switch been?

Steve:
It's been great. The Grass Gains guys, they're so infectiously about their products. I mean, there’s just a buzz all the time.
Josef who’s one of the guys - directors inside the business. He's almost… I’ve described him to everybody as the Duracell Bunny. He’s just full on all of the time. And that's what the whole business is like. And I think from my perspective, this is kind of the third start up business that I've gone into. And I just, I love that - because I guess I'm a bit of a generalist. So, the fact that I can go in there and help the guys with their processes and get all those kind of things, but I have the experience on the sales and the marketing and the operations. Hopefully I'm adding value to what they're doing.

Phil:
Brilliant.

Kate:
What was it that made you want to take on the Grass Gains challenge?

Steve:
I think I'm led by product. I always want the products that I bring to market to work. And the background for, Josef and Mark, the two kind of main guys that brought the business together is they are groundsmen - they were groundsmen. That was their business. So, Mark was the groundsman, with Arsenal, the Emirates Stadium and the likes, and they still have a sister company called Premiership Lawn Care who still looks after pitches, cricket pitches, football pitches, all those kinds of things. So, the products that they've brought to market are all professional products that they’ve bought. And then they've kind of just developed them more, just brought them to market. So, some of the products we do like our Black Edition. We sell the same products, Premiership grounds that they use on their football pitches. So, we know the products work they used by professionals and trusted by professionals.

Phil:
So that's the, Henry Lansbury connection.

Steve:
Henry Lansbury is an ex-Premiership football player. Doesn't play for any of the teams that I support, so that's fine. So, he's kind of Arsenal, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, which is great because it's a good point of conversation. But having that kind of in there as well. And he's created a bit of a social media persona under the lawn lad.
And so that helps us push ourselves out there into the market as well.

Phil:
Okay. So, let's start with the products then. So, what makes Grass Gains different from the usual lawn feed, seeds brands that we see on shelves.

Steve:
It is all about quality. It's all about making sure the products are the right products. So, I'm not knocking any of the competitor's products, but a lot of them are a series of fertilisers and chemicals that have been bound together to do a specific job. Where these guys come from, they're looking beyond that. So, they don't just look at we're going to put some nitrogen on and make the lawn green. They're looking at the bio stimulants and the likes that are in there.
Because if you think about grass it’s a plant like any other plant. But it's the most stressed plant because we walk on it. The dogs wee on it, they play on it. So, actually the addition of things like the bio stimulants to help deal with the stress that the grass deals with, makes sure you're going to get better results as time goes by.

Kate:
Can you just talk a little bit about what a bio stimulant is for people that might not know?

Steve:
Yeah. So, bio stimulants, are naturally occurring enzymes and fungi in some cases, that plants produce and plants can take up and actually more and more recently, scientific evidence is coming that you can almost get a plant to grow and survive just by giving them bio stimulants, as opposed to giving them fertilisers. So, it deals and it basically stimulates the hormones in the plants to perform. And helps make them more resistant to stress.

Kate:
So, a bit like a mycorrhizal fungi, which we, we know about for trees and shrubs.

Steve
It's actually that.

Kate:
That's interesting. My first ever job within horticulture was, looking after bowling greens. So I come from, a ground's beginnings. So, this is. Yeah, it's interesting talking about this for me. So, Steve, tell us about the exciting new products that you're launching at Glee this year.

Steve:
Well, we've kind of developed two strings of products this year. So, we've added a couple of products into our lawn care range. So, we know that our products are used by all kind of lawn care users, whether they're beginners or more advanced lawn care users. But actually, we want to encourage more people into lawn care. So, we've created a product called Total Lawn Care.
So, it's a child of pet friendly products, but it's all about suppressing weeds, getting the green growth that people want. And then also using Bacillus which helps break down moss. And it kind of suppresses moss as well. But it's child and pet friendly. It hasn't any herbicides, pesticides in it. And it's just kind of introducing people in with the view that through the social media work that we do and Tik Tok work that we do, we can then encourage them up the ladder in terms of using other products.
We've also launched another fertiliser that has, a lot more Bacillus and things like triple superphosphate, which helps stun moss. So, it's there as a primary fertiliser, but again it will suppress the moss. So, that's what we've done on the lawn care.
I suppose the big thing for us was we stepped into plant food.

Kate:
Yes. That's a big… a new step.

Steve:
A new step, yeah. So, I kind of explained to the guys, look you’re experts in lawns, and we'll carry on focusing absolutely on lawns, but I know something about compost and therefore I know something about the bits that we need to add to it. And, you know, my background as far as peat-free compost is concerned. So, we've launched… we've kind of rebranded a little bit - we took a long time about this one Phil in terms of marketing. So, we took Grass Gains and we thought about what brand for the plant market, and we went Plant Gains.

Phil:
Ah, Nice!

Kate:
It must have taken a long time to come up with that one!

Steve:
Absolutely. So, we've launched a plant food called Bloom. And it's specifically aimed at peat free compost.
The problem we have at the moment is the market has been moving to peat free rapidly, but we're just selling the same legacy plant foods to it. All of the peat free elements, whether using coir or woodfibre or bark or whatever, is absolutely stacked out with potassium.

Kate:
Yup.

Steve:
It's far too much potassium for the plants already. And you take the legacy plant foods; they’re just adding more potassium. So, we've launched a plant food that has all the nutrients and trace elements but doesn't have any potassium. And we've also had added magnesium and Kate will know this, but magnesium - it's a great mineral that allows the plants, when they're under stress, to take up the other nutrients because we have too much potassium, actually, it stops them from taking up nitrogen and phosphate.
This doesn't the magnesium helps them take up those other nutrients. And we've just found stunning results. You do not need all that added potassium.

Phil:
So, Kate, I've got a question for you then. So, if you have too much potassium what visible effects does that have on a plant?

Kate:
Oh all sorts, well you'll get yellowing. You'll get wilting, I mean it's just not a happy plant and eventually it will. It's not fatal, but it will just eventually die - and you'll just get a lot less. Because what potassium is really good for is fruits and flowering. So, what you get is a lot less blooms.

Phil:
Okay. Right. Okay. That's good because I'm not a horticulturalist. So, that's good just to understand that. So, you've introduced this product right now. Why is that so important. Do you think in the current landscape.

Steve:
Well, environmentally I think we're moving peat free. And, and I think everybody agrees that that's the right thing for us to do. We need to take the consumer with us. And, one of the problems that you see at the moment is lots of consumers are saying that they're failing with peat free - for one reason or another. So, some are failing in the first instance because the peat free isn't very good. And we know there's a problem there, and we're working on that, with the Responsible Sourcing to try and bring a standard in that.
But one of the other problems to exactly to what Kate has said, is people will start feeding with a legacy plant food for the first 2 or 3 weeks, they'll be getting good results from it, but that build up of potassium because they keeping to adding which then starts leading to yellow leaves, wilting – which is exactly what I've seen in the trials and a reduction in blooms. But because they've bought the compost, they've started feeding, initially they're seeing good results, they’re now looking at the plant going: what's going wrong? Because they don't understand it. And so, we're setting our consumers up to fail. So, hopefully with Bloom - and hopefully the market takes note and starts following us - we're trying to give them the right thing, so, they have success and they're constantly happy.

Kate:
How do we get that through to the consumer though? Because, with a company that I used to work for did a lot of market research and found that just such a few - a tiny percentage of people realise that you have to feed your plants. So, is there anything you're doing differently that can maybe get that message across?

Steve:
We're going to be very… as well as social media. We're getting more and more followers every day and we're going to carry on telling that story. But as well as social media, we are going to spend a lot of time with, investment in terms of Point of Sale in store. Because that's the point where you can really… you can't communicate this kind of stuff on a TV advert or whatever. Not that we're big enough either for that, unfortunately. But in-store, I think we can communicate the message, and that's where we're going to go for we're going to really highlight the “designed for peat free” and highlight to consumers and also work with retailers - train retailers - one of the things that's coming back over the last two days is once they understand the message, they want to train their staff to be able to communicate that message because they didn't understand it either.

Kate:
Well, Alan Roper was talking about that actually, that he didn't understand about the problem with potassium with peat free.

Steve:
No, I think those that are in it, should understand it.

Kate:
Yeah, absolutely

Steve
And some do understand it. But it's something that we've been working on when I was at my previous company: Southern Trident. I took potassium out of all the feeds that we're putting into a compost, because I knew we didn't need to do it. I don't think everybody's cottoned on to that yet. But it's the more we shout about these things and I'm sure the market will follow. Then the consumer will slowly learn.

Phil:
Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm talking about, Grass Gains in general here, but, the packaging, the messaging, it all feels very different from your usual garden brands. Was that intentional from the start?

Steve:
Yeah, I think it was. I mean, I think where they've come up with the word gains is from the gym and you see the gorilla flexing his muscles. I think that's kind of where they were taking it from. Josef always describes the packaging is trying to look a bit like a protein shake. So, that's kind of why we've gone there - one of the reasons why we went down the pouch route rather than boxes.
So, we have tried to make the look and feel about the products, so it does look different. And it has good reasons for being in pouches as well, because the boxes don't degrade and the consumer can reseal packaging, all those good things. But actually, that kind of initial, does it look like a protein pack? And something very different was part of their thinking when they came up with the brand.

Kate:
So I've just got a question as, a female in horticulture who knows quite a lot, done a lot about lawn care. For me, the kind of muscly is a little bit off putting - have you done any kind of market research on how… I mean, we know that mostly it's males that look after lawns, but how are you going to encourage more kind of women, to take up the lawn care.

Steve:
I think you're probably right. It probably is a little bit… it is a little bit male. And I've spoken to a number of female buyers about it. And generally, well in fact without exception, they've kind of accepted that the mass market for this is male. And so, focusing it against a male buyer, is probably the right way to go.
It'll be interesting as we step into plant food. Because we're using exactly the same logo other than the word plant on it. We are going to move into a more female area. But I think the fact that we've got lots of flowers and bright orange and purples and whatever, I think that softens the whole pack a little bit away.

Kate:
So Grass Gains positions itself as a challenger brand. How does that influence what you do? And how you show up?

Steve:
So I think it is a difficult, position to be in as a challenge brand, when you're coming into it, you've got to do something different. And I think social media is, is the way that we’re doing it. I think two things that we're doing social media, we're on it all at the time. So, whether it's LinkedIn talking to retailers or Facebook, Instagram and TikTok, talking to consumers and, and we're doing TikTok lives almost on a daily basis.

Kate:
Really? Goodness me.

Steve:
Josef, when he's working in the office packing orders, whatever. He'll be on TikTok live talking to consumers while he's doing it, he’ll have the camera set up. So, we are building, an ever-greater footprint on that. And we use that then to drive consumers into retailers. So, we have online forums for our products. So, the likes of Amazon, we have our own website, TikTok shop, etc. but actually everything that we do online, we make sure the pricing is the same price as what's going to be in a retail environment. So, we're not trying to undercut those. Because ultimately we want bricks and mortar. And Josef, particularly when he does TikTok, he's pushing people to go, where are you from? This is the retailer in your area, because that's what we try and right. And we work with their social media teams as well. So, it's almost our first conversation is when you get to about, well, what we can do with this package, well, we want to work with your social media team, to push the products and the brand out there, because we haven't got £5 - £6 million spent on advertising. So we have to come about in a slightly different way.

Phil:
Yeah, but it's a very different way of working isn't it. And I think you need to be almost a particular type of person to be able to pull that off. So, there's a lot of people would really struggle with, doing what Josef is doing, you know, being, the face of the brand and just constantly talking about it – and this is what I’m doing. And this is why. And why it's so good. It is a skill, isn't it?

Steve:
It absolutely is. And it's nice for me because it actually allows me to step back and concentrate on other things because in most cases of businesses I’ve been in, It’s been Steve's the face of this company.
But Josef, from a consumer perspective, is absolutely the face. And it's from a sales perspective as well. So, it's great having that person in the business that can just go out there and do all of that.

Phil:
Right. So, do you think you were brought in almost like as, I don't mean this to be derogatory, but like the grown up in the room? Just in terms of to have that more overview, experience.

Steve:
And there probably is an awful lot of truth in that. And I don't think the team would see it as being derogatory. I think they have. I think they want to scale up and, they're a young family business. And although they've got some successful businesses behind them particularly on the groundsman kind of thing, going that kind of next corporate level in terms of dealing with other retailers, is something that they need to step up to. And I think that's part of the reason for asking me to come on board, which is great.

Phil:
Yeah, absolutely. So, what's been, harder than you expected in trying to disrupt the market?

Steve:
I think the big difficulty in the market is, the big boys kind of blocking the market out. So, they if you look at them and we all know who they are without naming names, but they have huge rebate deals and special net pricing, and they dictate that they have a certain amount of shelf space and everything else in return for that.
And that's quite hard as the disruptive brand to undercut that and say, well, no, you need to give us some space as well. Which part reason why we went and the route of FSDUs and things in the first place. Because we don't need shelf space, we can have off-shelf, and we can generate the sales and prove to you that it's the case.
I guess an analogy I was thinking about the other day about this was, from when you kind of asked me the question was, if you look at some big global dominance like Google. And they're been sued for their dominant position in the marketplace. Actually, I see that's completely wrong because as a consumer, I can go anywhere I like. I'm starting to use ChatGPT more often, but if I want you to use Yahoo or whatever else, I can go and do that. It's on the consumer going into a garden centre, and the space is dominated by 2 or 3 big players. I now, as a consumer, have no choice because those manufacturers have blocked out the retail. So, I walk in and it's a shop selling the same products every time. Actually, for me that's more - and I don't say anti-competitive because that's a bit strong - but you know what I mean? It does make it hard for a disruptor brand to break through that. And not give the consumer the choice that's out there because there's lots of great products out there.

Kate:
So how are you challenging that? How are you getting yourself into the garden centres into that retail space.

Steve:
So, we have to create the demand. So, again, communicating with consumers, one of the things that we say regularly to them is: look, if you can't buy it locally, buy it from us online, but actually do us the solid and go into the retailer and ask for the product. Say to them, we want to buy this product from you, but you don't stock it. Hopefully we can build the momentum up.

Phil:
Generate demand.

Steve:
Absolutely, and we are doing it. There's been a number of times when I’ve sat down with buyers and actually I haven't had to sell the product particularly, because they've had demand come through or they've seen the product on TikTok and seeing what we're trying to do; and then turning round and going actually, Steve, we go through the products with us, but we've bought into this, we just need to understand a bit more detail on it. And I think that's our way of breaking through, one of our ways of breaking through.

Phil:
Okay. So, you talk there about, response from buyers. What generally is the reaction that you're getting is excitement or is it scepticism or somewhere in between?

Steve:
I think genuinely it's a mix of all three. I think, curiosity gets us the meeting.
Scepticism kind of gets the questions coming.
And excitement is what we leave them with.

Kate:
Right!

Phil:
Ah, I like that – well done.

Kate:
So, away from lawn care, you're still chairing the Responsible Sourcing Scheme? What's the current state of play in the peat free transition?

Steve:
I think in a single word: stalled.

Kate:
Yeah.

Steve:
I think we desperately need the government to do something. And the government, as we all know, has got a lot of priorities on at the moment and a lot of things on their minds…

Kate:
Yeah, just a few.

Steve:
And that seems to increase on a daily basis. But somehow we have to find a way through because it has become really unclear. Those retailers that have made the move and there's great retailers out there, like B&Q, like Mike Burks down at the Castle Gardens Group, have gone peat free.

Kate:
Oh yeah, he’s brilliant.

Steve:
And their view is: we’ve gone peat free, we've done the hard work. Now we're pushing our consumers down that route and we're not going to step back for me. But we know that there are a lot of peat based compost out there, and they're using the peat up and they're competitively on price, and retailers want to make the margin.
And I can I get that completely and utterly. So, there is a bit of a stalling there. The HTA is kind of pushing for some kind of answer from government, which I think is positive and discussing that, but it would be really good if we could sit there and go, these were the dates. I think we can rush it for retail because I think we're nearly there.
I think for the commercial, they do need more time. And I buy into that and I’m with them, because commercially they need to do the right thing at the right time. But I think we need to move forward.

Phil:
Yeah. So, what's next on the agenda for, the Responsible Sourcing Scheme and what do you want, for the wider sector to stay focussed on?

Steve:
I think so the Responsible Sourcing Scheme, we're constantly updating the scheme and making it more and more relevant. We, look at other schemes around the world and we believe that the Responsible Sourcing Scheme is leading the way. And so, I want to open some communications with the guys that are in Europe that have got similar schemes and kind of get them on board and realise actually we're already five steps ahead of them and they need to come on board with what we’re doing.
The bit of work that is rapidly progressing – and hopefully, I’d hoped we'd be there by now but we're nearly there. Is a quality standard. The Responsible Sourcing Scheme is trying to make itself more relevant. So, we're about to relaunch our website. Put much more information onto the website. Again, make it easy for the consumer to have a look at how responsible one product is versus another product.
But one of the big problems that we have, and we all know this, is the qualities of peat free. Some are great, some less great.

Kate:
Great and not so good. Yeah.

Steve:
And once these quality standard comes out not only on the bag, will you be able to see how responsible is, you actually be able to see whether the product works or not. There will be an accreditation mark that says, this product works. And you will only be able to put that product mark on when it's been independently tested and proven that it does work.

Kate:
Right. Although that's quite hard with some composts, isn't it? When you know it's almost a living, breathing thing. So, it's going to be different, last year we had all that rain that obviously affected some composts. This year it's been really dry. So, it's a much tougher thing than saying, you know, this dishwasher detergent works, isn't it? How do you kind of approach that?

Steve:
It is difficult, but I think there's other things that we need to do. So, we need to make sure part of that accreditation is that manufacturers batch code their products so that we know when it's been manufactured. We're encouraging consumers to buy fresh product, because then it's much more likely to do what it's supposed to do.
And we need to encourage retailers. And it's a conversation we began having over the last 12 months or so is: rotate your stock. It was interesting, I was talking to a buyer earlier who buys food and rotation of stock is one of his core priorities, obviously, because it's stated. We need to do that with compost. Compost needs to be rotated buying 200 pallets in January and then working your way through it for the next 12 months is not the way to buy peat free compost.

Kate:
No, if you're that consumer that gets the one that's been at the bottom of that pallet, you know from January and you're buying it in September, it won’t be good?

Steve:
No.

Phil:
No, absolutely.

Kate:
So, final thoughts for Glee this year. What are you hoping to take away from the Grass Gains stand? That's quite difficult – Grass Gains stand. If I have a few gin and tonics that gets even harder.

Steve:
Well, easier in some ways!
I guess we want to make people that lawn care and plant food doesn't need to be boring. That we can actually bring some excitement and fresh energy and innovation into that area of the market, because they are the stalwarts of the market, aren't they? The triple actions of lawn care, the kind of plant foods that we've had historically?
And we kind of want to push the old guard and bring some new change into that.

Phil:
Are you still running Steve?

Steve:
I am. For my sins, I've got a half marathon in two and a half weeks time.

Kate:
Oh my goodness.

Phil:
Right.

Steve:
So yeah, stepping up the distance at the moment.

Phil:
Have you been going out in the mornings while here?

Steve:
Yes.

Phil
Fatastic, what a great way to finish. Right. Well, thank you so much for coming on Steve it's been really good catching up again. And wish you all the best for the rest of the show.

Kate:
Absolutely. Good luck with Grass Gains.

Steve:
Thank you guys.

Phil: 23:23
And I'm delighted to say that we are joined by Simon Taylor and Helen Thomas from Empathy Plantworks. So, welcome both of you.

Simon:
Thanks a lot

Helen:
Thank you.

Kate:
Hello. Hello.

Phil:
So, I know that, before the show, you've trailed big news for Glee. New products, a B2B portal. Emily, the virtual assistant, new packaging, and also show offers and all sorts of things. What should visitors make a beeline for?

Simon:
I think if you come to the stand, we'll take you on a journey because, you know, this year we have got new products, a new ordering portal, as you just mentioned. But most of the time when people come onto the stand, we found last year is: what you products, if you got? Because they know of us, they know our key products our hero products like Root Grow. But what new products have you got? And this year we've gone all out. We've got, I think, nine new products that we've introduced to our ranges. We've introduced, a houseplant range under the banner Green Room. So, that summit to come and have a look at.

Kate:
Ooh, I’d like to.

Simon:
Yeah. And we've got all of the, products are now in new packaging. So, we started the transition, about 12 months ago into a new packaging style. And it's been very well received. We've extended the bio fertiliser range, and Root Grow. The old favourite is still there, but in new packaging. Everybody loves it.

Kate:
So, Helen, can you tell us about the new products that you've been bringing out? Can you go into the science a little bit more?

Helen:
I can go into a little bit of the science. Yeah. So, some of the products are joining our existing range. So, for the last few years, we've actually been producing natural bio fertilisers, for many years now. But slowly over the last few years that range has just grown and grown and grown.
So, we have, a brand-new tomato and vegetable granular fertiliser. The idea with that is you can just put it onto the top of your, veg trugs, your beds, your raised beds, work it into the soil that breaks down slowly over time. Providing drip feeding nutrients but also boosting the biology of your soil. So, as a company, I'm not sure how familiar listeners are - so, we have the Root Grow the…

Kate:
The mycorrhizal.

Helen:
The mycorrhizal fungi, which are fantastic in terms of connecting to the roots of plants growing off into the soil, making that large secondary root system, we also produce bacteria so these are beneficial bacteria that actually work with plants, to gain a whole host of benefits, including, soluble-izing nutrients, making them more available and also fixing nitrogen from the air. So, we include that in our bio fertilisers as well. So, we have the veg feed have a hydrangea feed, which is granular. And then we have a couple of new liquid feeds for acer and…

Kate:
They’re very specific, we’re looking at aren’t we?

Helen:
Yeah. So, we've a lot of our products have actually come from conversations we've had with people within the industry. And they come to us and say things like, we really like your range, but do you have a feed for this particular plant group? So, we go away. We, look at different formulations, obviously always biological. And then we bring these new products to market. And also, I was going to say, our houseplant range is so exciting. I love, love, love, love, love my houseplants.

Kate:
And this is all biological?

Helen:
Yup. All biological. So, we've got, some liquid feeds, which are fantastic. They're pump and feed. You can just, a few pumps into the saucer or onto the soil of your houseplant, water it, all ready to use. And we also have some granular feeds as well for the houseplants. So, yeah, a fantastic new range.

Kate:
Exciting.

Helen:
It is. It’s exciting to be able to talk about.

Phil:
And have they been formulated specially to work with peat free compost?

Helen:
Yeah, absolutely. So, everything we do has been with peat free compost in mind. We actually… This product was launched last year, we have a compost improver, designed specifically for peat free compost that people can put into their compost and also for grow bags as well. But all of the other products we’re, yeah, trying to work to boost up just get the best out of your peat free compost.

Phil:
Okay. So, where do these sit in store for maximum attachment rate. So, is it with the compost or feeds or plant care aisle where do you see them sitting?

Simon:
Well the Root Grow product is very famous for being an attachment sale with plants - all plants. And interestingly, I was just talking to a customer this morning, showing them the buy fertiliser range, and they're all plant specific as Helen was alluded to there. And when we first brought Root Grow out, you know, they said, you know, maybe we should do one for this plant, one for the other. And we said, no. Root Grow is for all plants and any plant. And we kept to that word and it's still remains the same. So, Root Grow in itself as an attachment sale is there for every plant that gets sold. It's like a plant would not want to leave a garden centre without its favourite lifelong partner.
With the other products as Helen said, they’re kind of like consumer driven. They would go into the garden care sector, but now you've got more plant specific products that we've developed for, certain plant groups. Then, if you were a good garden centre you would merchandising with those plants, olive tree feed with olive trees, acer feed with acers and so on.
And it's become a bit of a trend, but I think it really helps the consumer as well. Because Mrs. Jones, as we might call her, will go into her garden centre: I’m buying a climber. Do you have a feed for my clematis? You know, that sort of thing. And you kind of like, well, you can use this. But it's not for clematis. Okay, so we'll give you something for that.

Kate:
Phil mentioned in his initial question about Emily, the advice assistant. What or who exactly is Emily? What questions can it or she answered well. And what are the limits?

Simon:
Well, Emily's caused quite a stir. So, the managing director of the company, Robert Patten, he's, very innovative. And he's kind of fallen in love with AI a little bit, so we thought, you know, what can we do? So, about two years ago, we started to use AI for product information. And you can go to our – and I'll talk about our portal in a minute - but you go to our portal now, and you can download videos that give you product information. He went away and thought to himself, well, why don't we actually have, an AI, interaction or something you can interact with to answer gardening questions.
So, we went away and thought about it. And he came back at, you know, a few weeks later, and hey, look at this. And, it was pretty special, pretty amazing, actually, I must say. You can ask her, she's trained to answer any gardening question. And, so if you asked, for example, to change a tire of Vauxhall Nova, she'll say, I'm sorry, I'm a gardening assistant.
But it uses similar technology to AI that we're becoming more familiar with. So, it goes into what's called a large language model. And she goes and looks for the information that you've asked for. And then brings it back to you and delivers you an answer. The subtlety of it is you can train her to suggest products.
So, Emily at the moment is, unbranded, free to use, and all of us sitting around the table could use it. You wouldn't see any product recommendations, you wouldn't see our brand on it. But if you said, Emily, what plant can I use in a shady area of the garden? She have a minute to think. She'll come back with their answers. And within the answer you should say, if you're planting this tree, you might be an idea to use Root Grow, because it will help the plant establish. So, it's got that ability to suggest things in the background.

Kate:
Now, for somebody like me, who's trade is as a horticultural consultant, the idea of Emily fills me with horror, because she's taking my job. Do you see it as a gimmick? Something just to catch visitor’s eyes? Or do you think this is something we're going to be seeing more and more of?

Simon:
Firstly, I think your role is extremely important. I don't think it'll ever go away.

Kate:
He has to say that!

Simon:
I think, AI says, do we need designers anymore? Yes, we do. Because you need the creative mind. You know, AI can go away and do things - you've got to treat it like an assistant. But in the case of Emily, it's for consumers to use on the spot in the moment.
So they haven't got access to your deep brain? But you're, What you have - in most garden centres, there will be “the Kate” who all the staff go to when somebody asks a question. I know I've had 2 or 3 garden centre staff when I've gone back in to see them and they actually come to me, they say: oh Emily's great. You know, I don't need to keep asking Kate. Every time somebody says…

Kate:
But Kate likes to be asked!

Simon:
Yeah I know, but she can't answer everything…

Kate:
We're going to divert too much.

Simon:
But she's for the consumer and for the staff potentially to use. So, but we need to embrace this sort of thing and I find it really interesting. I even asked, you know, what parallels in history are there where things like AI, are changing things and we have to evolve and develop with those. And what change in history has there been?
Let's take designers for one thing before the internet. You didn't have web designers, you know, so it created new jobs. And I think things like AI will create new jobs and help expand our knowledge on a lot of things will happen. Don't worry, Kate, you’re okay.

Kate:
So, Helen, is there the idea that shoppers will actually be able to use Emily in store?

Helen:
Yeah, I think it's sort of a little bit like: so, I will go and Google things on my phone constantly. It's just a little bit like that really. So, that's how I think of it in my head that you can - if you’re in the plant area, if you can't see a member of staff, you can scan this QR code, you can have a look on your phone, ask the question and just get some real time advice. Which obviously, then hopefully, you'll take that information, then go and talk to real members of staff, for the bigger projects and things, but just that instant, in the moment response that you can get from Emily. Yeah.

Phil:
Fantastic. So, you mentioned, towards the beginning about the fact that your products are all in new packaging. So, can you tell us a little bit about that? Because that's something obviously as a designer, and I run a marketing agency, so, I'm very interested and so...

Helen:
Yeah, yeah, we're sort of always looking - we're always looking at the market and we're always looking at ways we can change our packaging to help it stand out on the shelf. Also, the move towards, eco-friendly packaging. So, we're always looking to… every time we find out about anything that is more easily recyclable, that maybe, comes from a pre-recycled source, we're incorporating that always into our packaging designs.
But in addition to that, yeah, it's about creating something cohesive that also stands out on the shelf. So, we've got some really beautiful packaging, some of it I've seen for the first time at this show. We've got a new bulb starter that's got this like beautiful imagery of tulips on. And it just, it just really pops. And when you see, like a full bio fertiliser range all lined up together, I'd encourage people if you, if you're able to come and see us at the show or alternatively pop into a garden centre and have a look at the display all together. Yeah, it does look really striking and fantastic.

Phil:
And if you updated all the messaging on the packaging as well, is that something you’ve been looking at?

Helen:
Yeah, absolutely. That's something that's always evolving. So, as more information… We have a full science team, that's one thing we have as a company - as well as the sort of sales, marketing, side of things - we have a full team of, of scientists.

Kate:
You’ve got R&D.

Helen:
R&D. Yeah. So, specialist soil scientists.

Simon:
They're here today actually.

Phil:
Oh, fantastic.

Simon:
Yeah, yeah. A couple of… our lead scientist is here today. She'll be here, Amy, with our colleague Marina. And, she'll be here for the best part of tomorrow. So, if you come to the stand and they’re around, you can have a really deep…

Helen:
Really deep, detailed chat. Yeah.

Kate:
So actually, that's going to lead me into, into this question, which is tell us a bit about the research that goes into developing the new products.

Simon:
Well, I'll say one thing first, and the I’ll let Helen take over. Because, for the first time this year, people are saying to us: well what’s in your products? So, it’s mycorrhizal fungi, beneficial bacteria. Oh is it, well you can't see it. No you can't see it. So, you know, I get chastised sometimes that I sell something that's invisible! But, I was it I was in the lab, it was a couple of years ago, actually. And I opened the fridge door in the lab, and there's all these, like, sachets lined up with all different colours, and I actually found myself saying what are they? So, I said to Amy, and she said, well, they’re the bacterias. I said they’re all different colours. She said, yeah. I said, well, why are they different colours?
She said well that’s what colour they are. And I sort of found myself… So on the stand, if you come along, you can see what's in our products because we've actually got the sachets that they're produced in, which are IV?

Helen:
Yeah, like little IV bags.

Simon:
Because they have to be sterile.
And, there's a pink one, there's a beige one. There's a kind of a clear one. And there's brown one. And when they're in their billions, they have a colour.

Kate:
Oh, I see.

Simon:
So, you can actually see them, which is something you never see. So, you've got obviously the shape, but the colour is that and there's no dye there. That is the bacteria. But the science and research Helen might expand on a bit.

Helen:
Yeah. So, quite a lot of it I would say comes from our interest in kind of commercial sectors, so things like farming. So, bacteria are routinely used actually, not so much in the UK, but in other countries, that technology, so, the idea of applying bacteria, applying mycorrhiza to your fields to act as natural fertiliser, and we've done a lot of research kind of with UK, growers and UK farmers, to develop agricultural products.
But then that filters into our…

Kate:
Well it often does - agriculture then filters into retail.

Helen:
It filters int the retail and gardening. So, we're in this really unique position where we can be specialist and we can bring some of these innovations into the gardening sector.

Simon:
Yeah. Just, recently, you know, off of the back of some of this research, well, you know, will it ever come to anything, you know, farmers are beginning to adopt it, but quite a big company in the agricultural sector, very recently, placed a significant order for bacterias to treat a specific crop. Which I can't say exact names, on air, but it's really quite significant, and it's something that… the amount of work we do in research for farming and agriculture and helping, crops grow more sustainably, transposes into hobby gardening. We use all that technology for hobby gardeners. And, we try to get the message across.
Hence bio fertiliser. You know, it's a product with a living organism that will improve a plant's nutrient use efficiency. It's pretty simple, but once you get it, you get it, and you start to swap over, you go, yeah, we need to be going in this direction.

Helen:
It's amazing because it offers in terms of like sustainability, the long-term benefits. If you're setting up a community of bacteria and fungi, good bacteria and fungi within your soil that is going to exist for years to come in a way that just purely putting some nutrients on there. It's kind of not even comparable.

Kate:
And people, I suppose, are understanding it more because we're talking about gut health so much.

Helen:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Kate:
Supporting your biome. It's becoming much more talked about.

Helen
I used to call it Yakult for plants. When I worked with the bacteria. Yeah. It's very much similar ideas that we all exist in this big ecosystem.

Simon:
I sometimes use an analogy. The root of a plant is not unlike our stomach turned inside out.

Kate:
Yeah, I get that.

Simon:
It may sound a bit gruesome, but if you think about it, we put food in. The food is exchanged from our stomach into our body. Turn our stomach inside out and essentially, you've got the root of a plant which is exchanging nutrients from outside and bringing it in. So, all that: our gut biome. Which you were just talking about there. We try to look after a plant, and most living things are seeking the best way to exchange nutrients to keep them alive. And these… this technology does this for plants, and, you know, it's proven on a global scale. Soil health is just like… it’s massive and this is the direction that governments are going in. You know, they're saying we gotta look more carefully at soil health, soil biome, you know, and we're kind of… we're very, very knowledgeable about it and we need more people to know about it. Hobby gardeners in the UK have got direct access to it. It's incredible, you know.

Kate:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, I mean, soil health is the most important thing, you know, rather than just sprinkling a bit of synthetic fertiliser, that’s just for your plants, get that soil. I mean, I talk a lot about mulching.

Helen:
Yeah. Oh, I love, a good mulch as well. It’s the foundation.

Kate:
It is. So, if you're somebody who mulches a lot, would you still benefit from using your bio products, would you say?

Helen:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it all works quite sympathetically together. Like especially with, for example, the mycorrhizal fungi, you use that at point of planting. So, you’re getting that into contact with the roots, then any nutrients you're getting broken down from your mulch is going to be acting to feed them.

Kate:
Absorb more.

Helen:
Yeah.

Phil:
So, we're talking about some quite complex things: mycorrhizae fungi, beneficial bacteria, bio fertilisers. If you're working in a garden centre and you're looking at your teams of the people working in the garden centre, what sort of training or what was the minimum amount of training that they need to be able to explain those things to the customers.

Helen:
Well I think we do offer a lot of resources. So, I would say if you were in that position, you had your team, you wanted to, sort of educate them about, all of the products that we do. So, visit our website. We do have information on there. Contact us as a company because, we can put you in touch with your local area rep. Someone can arrange to come out and do some staff training with you. We also have a range of videos, sort of other resources…

Simon:
Come and collect our catalogue. And on the back page is a QR code to a 15-minute training session on the whole product range.

Phil:
Oh, wow.

Simon:
So, get down there, get a catalogue and you'll be trained up a lot. We use videos now - I don't know if you get social media and it says: I can do my training sessions in this amount of time - we adopt that technology. And we use it. We really try to, not be afraid of using what's available to us now. But there's still nothing better in my opinion for, me than to go to garden centre and train the staff on the products. And that's how genuinely have we started out with Root Grow. And it's brilliant now. I mean, I started doing this 15 years ago and, I go into train a garden centre and I'd look at them and say, I'm going to talk about mycorrhizal fungi. Anybody heard of it? And they would literally stare back at me with a blank face. And I would exchange the information and they would go away.
And now I go into a garden centre and they immediately go, oh, you mean Root Grow? And I say, yeah, do I need to be here? But then it's great, because I say, well, what do you know? I know it does this. Or I saw David Attenborough talking about it. All right. I've seen it on a programme, it's in the Wood Wide Web.

Kate
The Wood Wide Web – yeah, that’s fantastic

Helen:
I love it.

Simon:
And you're like, yeah. You got it. But you know what's in this packet? Oh no, tell me more. And then you go into the producct. So, it's you know… that education, started with us. You know, we sort of like… the word mycorrhizal fungi, we say we introduced it to the gardening lexicon. It's one of the favourite things our MD likes to say. And we're going to do that with bio fertiliser. We’re going to introduce the word bio fertiliser to the gardening lexicon.

Kate:
Lovely. So, your products are a great add on or an attachment sale. Imagine I work in a garden centre. What's your best tip to help me maximise those sales?

Helen:
I think it's a combination of… so we talked a little bit earlier in the podcast about, where it's displayed. So, if you can, put our products near plants, that is fantastic.

Kate:
Sensible isn’t it.

Helen:
Sort of, dual location is always really good. Putting the… we do little Root Grow sachets, they can go - if they can be in the till area that’s fantastic. But also, just recommending it, with… for every time you plant basically so Root Grow, you can recommend that with pretty much everything in the garden centre, any, any time anyone's taking a plant home, take home, some Root Grow. Also, with the, the associated fertilisers. So, a lot of them are, are named for the plants that they grow with. So if you’re buying a rose take home some rose bio fertiliser. I mean I hopefully it's fairly clearly, kind of self-explanatory, but it's… It can be recommended with everything can’t it.

Simon:
I know it sounds is a bit corny. I've said it a few times before, but, you know, many garden centres. At the till end when you walk out, they sell batteries. Which is fine, you know, because people need batteries, it's a pick up purchase. So, it's that last thing – oh batteries, I need batteries. For me, a product like Root Grow should be on every till-end in every garden centre, because if you think about it, mycorrhiza connects to the root system. It starts to grow out into the soil, and it provides power to that plant for its lifetime. It's like batteries for plants.

Kate:
There we go!

Simon:
Get it on the till end.

Phil:
But it's interesting. Kate and I were at the Glee roadshow at Monkton Elm. And one of the big discussion points there was about, the fact that garden centres are suffering from an increase in National insurance, minimum wage increases. And they were looking at, their business and they were saying every purchase we need to increase the basket spend of I think it was only about 79 pence, wasn't it?

Kate:
It was quite small, yeah.

Phil:
It was quite small. But if they can do attachment selling with your products like that, you know, that easily.

Simon:
Well as well as you've asked that, you know, direct commercial question in that sense, you know what I just said there, you know, get it on the till. I’m constantly telling garden centres put it on the till end. It's kind of like for every plant you sell, you can be selling some Root Grow. So, earlier on this year, one garden centre actually said we we're going to run – you’ll probably know who they are when I say this - But it's an inter garden centre competition and they all selected… each garden centre selected one product that they wanted to push. So, they decide one of the centres decided they’d do Root Grow, and they had Root Grow on all the till ends. And they quadrupled sales.

Kate:
Wow.

Simon:
And it's just like…
Kate:
It’s a no brainer, isn’t it.

Simon:
And it did not cannibalise any other sale. It was a genuine add on sale.

Phil:
That’s fantastic.

Simon:
And because usually the Root Grow being amongst the fertilisers or hopefully in the plant area somewhere when it's actually put in front of somebody as the last thing they see is they're leaving the garden centre with the trolley full of plants it’s like; a product that helps my plants grow. They've got their fertiliser. This is something different. It's not a fertiliser - in that sense. And if I want a bigger carrot, I need more fertiliser. I want to grow an ornamental plant or rose, I need mycorrhiza. It's kind of that simple in that sense.
So, it genuinely did increase basket spend. So, you asked the question, there’s the answer.

Phil:
Yeah, that’s brilliant.
Thank you so much, both of you, for coming in to see us today and for telling us a bit about, what Empathy are up to, and it's been really fascinating and loved our chat.

Kate:
Yes, thank you

Helen
Yeah. Thank you very much.

Simon:
Lovely to see you Phil, Kate, really enjoyed our chat.

Phil:
Please do subscribe, like and review us on your podcast platform of choice – it only takes a moment, and it helps us to make the podcast possible. If you found this episode useful, do spread the word and share it with your colleagues. Signing up to our mailing list at theunderground.fm will mean that you’ll receive insight and news and new episodes, straight to your inbox.

The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.