Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now.
We asked each of our 20 guests one simple question: what’s one change that you’d love to see in the garden sector over the next 5 years. The answers paint a picture of optimism, resilience, and hope.

Libby Stokes:
Hello, I'm Libby Stubbs and I'm currently doing marketing and communications for British Garden Centres.

Amy Stubbs:
Yeah. Hello, I'm Amy Stubbs, I'm managing director of British Garden Centres.

Phil:
So, we're going to finish off with the question then, which we're asking all our guests over this week. And that is: what's one change that you'd love to see in the garden sector over the next five years?

Libby Stubbs:
Oh, for me, I think it's got to be bring in younger people and not even necessarily just younger people, people that aren't in the industry, into it and understand how important it is for the planet and also for people, because I think everybody would agree that seeing some greenery makes you so much happier. I think we're actively looking to do this through social media, and it's been such a big tool that's been presented to us that I think, from my point of view, it’s something that we really need to grab a hold of and use to our advantage to spread the awareness really.

Amy Stubbs:
For me, I think, similar to that, but I think it's also, hopefully getting the wider government, to understand how important our industry is. We are such an amazing industry and we're so important, to the UK in so many different ways. And I think, trying to get recognition for some of that importance would be really good.

Kate:
Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And it's not just about recognition that, you know, it's good for you, but it's economically as well - we bring in a lot of money.

Amy Stubbs:
Yeah, exactly. We're keeping a lot of people in jobs.

Kate:
Yeah, Absolutely.

Kate Ebbens:
I'm Kate Ebbens and I'm the commercial business manager for Wood Lodge Products.

Phil:
So, what's one change you'd love to see in the garden sector over the next five years?

Kate Ebbens:
A younger consumer. Because our industry is… our industry is lovely. We are really lucky to work in the garden sector - you know that, as well as I do. But that younger person needs to be able to experience that garden, destination centre or even your local nursery. And that's what I would like to see is a younger consumer coming through those doors and not being afraid to ask questions how plants… what plants they should be having? Having fun, buying pots. We need it. We have an amazing retail sector compared to high street. We have huge opportunities. Free car parking in most of the places. That younger consumer is what's needed. It's going to take a while and they don't have a huge amount of money.

Kate:
Or green space.

Kate Ebbens:
Or green space, but we need to help them on their journey through their working life. And I think garden centres are able to do that.

Helen Thomas:
So, my name is Helen Thomas. I work for Plant Works. I began within the science team within the company, but, fairly quickly moved to looking after the southeast region sales. And now I do a little bit of marketing and also still involved in the sales for the southeast.
So over the last few years, obviously with a lot of, changes within the industry, we had the pandemic. We had, that period where everybody was trapped inside, but possibly the only, silver lining was that people became more aware of their gardens, of their house plants. People began to engage with things like grow your own, which is absolutely fantastic, and also younger people.
And I just love to see that momentum continue really. Yeah, get more young people, get kids involved. Get teenagers involved, get students, get people involved because it is a fantastic thing. It's brilliant for your mental health. It's brilliant for, meeting people, social connections. It's just a fantastic community. And I would love that. To just continue to grow really.

Lee Connelly:
So my name's Lee Connelly, and I'm the children's gardening coach - once the Skinny Jean Gardener. And I get children and schools and parents excited about gardening and connecting through the power of gardening.
Oh, one change I'd like to see in the garden sector would be for more brands to invest in children's gardening and schools, I think. I think that's probably the biggest thing.

Nigel Thompson:
I'm Nigel Thompson, I'm the head of sales and marketing at Sipcam Home and Garden. I'm tempted to say something along the lines of a little bit more predictive and progressive weather. So, you know, getting warmer, getting lighter, getting sunnier, and then having a nice curve rather than it being a jagged mountain shape in terms of…

Kate:
Oh gosh, you need a big magic wand for this one!

Nigel Thompson:
Yeah, I think that would be that's obviously out of our control. Yeah. I think seeing younger people gardening as well, not just children, but, you know, teenagers and people in, you know, 20s and 30s. Because I think they're going to be really interesting when they become the core.

Kate:
They are, aren’t they?

Nigel Thompson:
Yeah, I think so, yeah.

Peter Burks:
Hi there. I'm Peter Burks, I'm the chief executive of the Garden Centre Association.

Kate:
So, we're going to finish with asking you what is one change that you would love to see in the garden retail industry over the next five years?

Peter Burks:
Some way of controlling the weather.

Kate:
Someone else, said that. I don’t think that’s going to happen!

Peter Burks:
And also, that would be a disaster, wouldn't it? Because everybody would want something different.

Phil:
Yeah, well that's true.

Peter Burks:
I always say that's just as well the weather’s not controlled by the politicians isn’t it.

Kate:
That’s why we love the UK.

Peter Burks:
One change in the industry. Well, I would have to say again, I want to see it somewhere around education. So, if we can pull more things together that will educate the shop floor teams, that to me will be a big thing. Which we are working on within the GCA.

Boyd Douglas-Davies:
I'm Boyd Douglas Davies, managing consultant of the Boyd Partnership here at GLEE with a number of hats on, one of them, a strategic advisor to GLEE itself. But also, I've got a number of clients both exhibiting and visiting. So, a busy three days.
One change, one change. I would like to see a stronger funded education program for new people. It doesn’t always have to be, I'm not talking about young people, but new people who want to join our industry. We are sadly lacking in any funded training.

Kate:
Yeah, that's very true.

Boyd Douglas-Davies:
And back in the 80s, when I was a Pershore, it was a lot of us on those courses at Pershore. They just don't have the funding now to be able to draw people in.

Kate:
Yeah, there are so few courses.

Boyd Douglas-Davies:
And yet places like Pershore are still there and they could offer great courses. So, in the next five years I'd love to see - so when you join this industry, you can actually enjoy some funded training.

Natalie Boynton:
Hello, I'm Natalie Boynton. I am one of the founders of the Young People in Horticulture Association. I also run an annual plant nursery with my family called Happy Plants, which is up on the north west coast.

Meg Warren-Davis
Hello, I'm Meg Warren-Davis. I currently work for the RHS, but I'm here on, YPHA capacity.
I'd say be open to change. Really dive into, like, see what you can do with technology. Get your plants in an app, get your plants on anywhere they can be, see if you can find different ways of selling. Really develop your marketing strategy. If there's any way that you can, you know, reduce your costings to increase your own margins to… Any weird, interesting ways, look to the tech industry, see what they're doing, look at all these other different industries and really try and take what they're doing and apply it to your own business in some way.

Kate:
That's great. That's great advice.

Natalie Boynton:
Similar vein, at the HTA conference about six years ago now, there was a speaker called Ken Hughes. And, he spoke about how the customer that's coming is a blue dot on the map, and everything orients around them. They don't get to blockbuster and they say, oh, actually, you can't borrow Die Hard 2 because Phil's rented it out. You know, they're used to instant gratification. They want to watch them, then it's there and they order something and it's there. And we… garden centres have an advantage of being experiential as long as we keep them experiential. But it is, is exactly. I said before really, it's be aware that you customer that's come in very different. And I think they are, but yeah like Meg says, don't be afraid to think outside the box to step up to where that customer need you to be.

Vanessa Cranford:
I'm Vanessa, Vanessa Cranford from Spring Marketing. I'm the founder MD of the business that was, established in 2005.

Kate:
What is one change that you would love to see in the garden sector over the next five years?

Vanessa Cranford:
I think a lot with AI actually, I think there's a lot of platforms for that. And I think particularly perhaps and this could be invested into apps perhaps, and speaking, with suppliers. But for… especially as there's a new audience coming in, I think a younger audience that might, you know, not have as much trial and error opportunities for budget or for time.
So, it's looking at perhaps bringing in the, AI of where we know that their home is, what's their soil conditions, what's the environmental area? You know, the weather conditions, the climate, the position of the sun. I mean, all of those things. I mean, it could be a bit, I don't know, out in the sky somewhere, but I just feel that somewhere there's some element that AI could be helping people in gardening more.

Phil:
Oh, I think absolutely. Yeah. I think, AI is, just being able to draw on so much information that you just can't, you know, a single person or a database just can't do it. It's that entirety of information that it has that it can draw on, that’s incredible.

Vanessa Cranford:
Yes.

Kate:
Yeah. Just don't do me out of a job too quickly though please.

Phil:
No, I think definitely, I mean, we were talking - I can't remember who were talking to…

Kate:
Empathy.

Phil:
Empathy, and I think that their response is correct. You know, that, there's still the requirement for people and knowledge.

Vanessa Cranford:
Absolutely.

Phil:
But AI can just help improve and plug the gaps.

Vanessa Cranford:
Yeah. I think the input to AI is coming from humans, but obviously their interpretation to then perhaps pull that data in richly, but that's just my opinion.

Aaron Rudman-Hawkins:
My name is Aaron. I am the managing director of the Evergreen Agency.
Ooh, one change I would like to say to be really boring, I would like. Well, I would like garden centres to actually realise the opportunity that online presents, regardless of their business type. As I said whether you're online or whether you're more bricks and mortar. The opportunity that online presents for this space, for this sector, the garden retail space is so incredibly untapped. It is like Pandora's box of an opportunity. And as a marketer, I can see it because what the garden retail space is yet to do and is on the cusp of doing and just starting to do post-Covid. Many other sectors did ten years ago.
And in that respect, it's a huge opportunity. So the next five years we’re going to see it, I know it because we're already seeing it, but more and more garden centres, and garden retail brands embracing that and just starting to explore it, would be amazing to see.

Barry Knight:
I’m Barry Knight, I’m managing director of a company called The Full Range. We are a UK wide food procurement company, specialist, and we help lots of different sectors to, buy food and beverage from a number of regional and national wholesalers, UK wide, more specifically in garden centre world we work with around 55 independent garden centres.
Well, this is an interesting one. So, I think if I go back to the change and the evolution of garden centres and the food journey that they've been on. The really interesting thing for me is what does that look like? What does the next stage of that look like? You know, you have fantastic spaces that have great parking. Comfortable dining, you know, great kitchens that are well equipped. It would be really interesting to see if that ever breaks into a nighttime environment. And, I don't know if that would be a desire for a garden centre owner, but local collaborations with chefs that could come in and take over a kitchen because, a lot of the local chefs will not have the kitchen space that a garden centre will. So, what could then come in and do and you know, bring that night time audience, you know to garden centres. I haven't seen a lot of that yet, but it would be really interesting to me to see if there is the opportunity to do that, even through collaboration, not a 7 day, night time operation, but, you know, could it evolve into regional collaborations once a month that, you know…

Phil:
Like a supper evening type thing and special events.

Barry Knight:
Yeah. To me, that would be a natural evolution for food that that would further cement food, as – well it is already - but, a real key element to garden centres.

Kate:
I love that because what we've seen with a lot of the big gardens so Wisley and the RHS gardens that they now do in the winter, they do these big light shows and whenever you go there there's always food stalls and everything like that. So that is, a potential for garden centres to generate more income around Halloween. Christmas. Yeah. I think, ooh.

Barry Knight:
Absolutely, yeah.

Kate:
I think there's real legs and opportunities for that. Definitely.

Barry Knight:
Well, maybe we can catch up in a couple of years and see if it goes anywhere. Really exciting though, I think, you know, just for the spaces I say.

Kate:
It's the parking, isn't it? That's such a big thing. Free parking as well.

Barry Knight:
Yeah, yeah.

Kate:
Right. I'm going to grab some garden centre owners.

Michael Perry:
I'm Michael Perry, also known as Mr Plant Geek, and really I'm a plant promoter and I'm here at Glee, Birmingham with my Future Plants display, which has 100 plants on.

Kate:
So we are asking all of our guests, what is one change that you would love to see in the garden retail sector in the next five years?

Michael Perry:
Ooh la la. I'm always a big fan of living labels. Have I talked about this before. living labels?

Phil:
I'm not sure you have. Not with us.

Michael Perry:
So, it's really like… if you look at plants like, I don't know, like a Hydrangea Groundbreaker for example, it's like, you know, when it's in flower, it's beautiful. It's a fountain of blooms and stuff. But it's not really cost effective for everyone to buy a four litre pot which is in flower. You know, that's quite a bit. So why not have one of those in the centre of the display, and then you've got babies that you buy around the edge. This could work really well for bedding, particularly for things that don't really flower in the pack, because we want everything to flower in the pack, in the six pack, to then look good on the garden centre bench. And some of that stuff is treated with chemical in order to make it flower.
Why not encourage living labels where you don't have to treat anything of a chemical, because it doesn't matter what it looks like when it's a young plant which applies in mail order, you don't worry what a plug plant that looked like in mail order. You don't want it to arrive with a flower on them. That's the last thing you want to see to be honest.
So, like, why don't we kind of twist, you know, change it all around on that? So, I think, I don't know, that's one thing I think leaving labels.
Also I don't know if, you know, Rijnbeek Perennials, a Dutch company, they're kind of all messed up. They've done an amazing thing, actually. I want to show you some pictures later, but, they've got, like, a stand which has, like, it's kind of got this upper layer and a lower layer. And their plants are perennials, all sold in nine centimetre pots are quite small. But very cost effective for the consumer because planting big doesn't always get your ahead, as we know. But they actually have ones in the top that kind of like you can then like almost well they actually will send it out, set up. So, all the plants are kind of mixed up. So it looks like the garden display that you're going to actually create - with the nine centimetre pot plants. But very simply done. And just merchandise before you get it. So I think living labels is really cool.

Phil:
I love that.

Kate:
Good idea, yeah.

Michael Perry:
I guess everyone else said stuff about sustainability etc. but this is actually… this is not so obvious. But this…

Kate:
Something that could happen and change gardening.

Michael Perry:
Something that can happen but something that has big knock on effect of like - when you're not using chemicals, you're getting out the door quicker. You kind of like, yeah, you're doing something that is better for the consumer. They're able to buy potentially, you know, plants that are not, you know, sterile even because you’re growing a range of different plants that you don't have to worry about all those things that a grower worries about. Buying something on the tiniest trolley. Yeah. So, it would be cool.

Dave Walker:
I'm, Reverend Dave Walker. I'm, owner, co-owner, actually, of Birleymoor Garden Centre. I own it with my son William. Yeah.
A respect for independent garden centres. They are on their own and its tough. And it's usually family owned and things like that.
Without them, that community bit is going to get eroded. And we're going to see more and more independents perhaps fold. So, it's like how can we support them, you know, and how can we grow. So, I'd like to see more support, independents. And that's also from the banks as well. So, I'll be talking to 1 or 2 of the banks saying, look, you need to get behind these. There's been financial studies done that every pound invested into a community engagement project, contributes £10 to the local economy.

Kate:
Goodness. that's a lot.

Dave Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. So, if we can get that right and help support these garden independent gardens. So yeah, I suppose, as we started earlier on, I think I'm going to be the Jeremy Clarkson of, Independent Garden Centre world.

Kate:
Lovely. I want to see that TV show!

Tony Kersey:
Okay. I'm Tony Kersey, I now work for GIMA, I'm the membership ambassador. So I'm here to look after existing members and bring on prospective members.

Phil:
What's one change that you'd love to see in the garden sector over the next five years?

Tony Kersey:
A continuation of development. Development and innovation is the lifeblood of any business, so I'm championing companies to come back to Glee year after year with newness, but with a focus on sustainability.
Because many more regulations are coming in around waste and the usage of recycled materials. So, my view would be focus on sustainability within your innovation programme.

Belle Richardson:
Hi, I'm Belle Richardson and I'm inventor and founder of Sales Stop.
So, my answer is going to be really skewed because of my background. But I think we need to make it easier for people to save water. So, more emphasis on water saving techniques, more products in that ground. Because like I said, this issue isn't going away. It's only going to intensify. And as I mentioned earlier, people love that gardens and they should be able to appreciate it and love them. So, if we find better, cleverer technology to make that easier and use less water. Everyone's winning.

Kate:
Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Kaz Edwads:
Hi, my name is Kaz Edwards. I'm the national sales manager for the Heart of Eden brand.
I'd like some clarity on the peat ban. I think for my sanity, everyone sake. Genuinely, I think that would be the one change that I would like to see…

Kate:
You’re not the only one to say that.

Kaz Edwads:
Just some certainty. Because, you know, people have to adjust, you know, and I'm not talking manufacturing necessarily, but retailers, growers – it’s far stretching. And it's… it can be a relatively easy adjustment, but people need notice and clarity. So that's why I personally would like to see

Kate:
Brilliant, I like that.

Dan Durston:
Hi, I'm Dan Durston and I'm sales director at Durston and Garden Products.

Simon Blackhurst:
Hi, I'm Simon Blackhurst, I'm horticultural consultant supporting Durstons, and chairman of the Growing Media Association.
I won't say a peat ban. I would say that we don't talk about peat or peat-free anymore. It's just growing media. And you know, for retail, it shouldn't contain peat anyway - done. And for professional that's another issue. We talk about that - we do that in a different forum.
But it would be lovely not to keep arguing with people that peat-free does work, because that's quite frustrating. All I've spent my horticultural life on is peat-free. It does work. I know it work.

Kate:
It does work. My garden proves it.

Simon Blackhurst:
Yeah, exactly, all my plants, etc. You know. So that would be really lovely not to have that uphill struggle. When are you having a conversation, that'd be great.

Kate:
And then we don't have to put it on the bags anu more.

Simon Blackhurst:
Exactly.

Kate:
It’s as you said it's just growing media.

Simon Blackhurst:
It is exactly.

Dan Durston:
I was just going to say, along the same lines is, what we were saying and that is to get in a minimum standard of expectation.

Simon Blackhurst:
Yeah. So, the Growing Media Association has relaunched this week, that was reported in Hort Week. The standards out there now, in terms of all the technical growing media manufacturers to have a look at – it’s a draft for comment. We’ll be looking to get that implemented as soon as we possibly can. Now. I've been working on that with a number of industry experts for the last 12 months, and that will give us a baseline. So that no products can go onto the market that don't perform as good as peat – end of.

Kate:
That would be great.

Simon Blackhust:
It would be nice wouldn’t it. And that's the aim.

Steve Harper:
I'm Steve Harper, I'm the managing director of Grass Greens and I'm also the chair of the Responsible Sourcing Scheme.
I guess this won't surprise you because of some of the things that I said, but I want to see less smoke and mirrors, I want there to be less marketing and actually get the products to do what they actually say on the tin. Gardeners deserve results. And we risk losing gardeners if we don't give that. So, we need to set them up to win.

Phil:
I mean, they're… it's interesting we were talking before the show and I’m going to be careful about how I phrase this, but we were talking before we came on air, and we were discussing, a particular plant food brand, which has claims on the back, which clearly are not true. And, you know, it's things like that which just, are confusing the market rather than helping aren’t they?

Steve Harper:
Absolutely true. And that brand without naming names when I've been talking to people today and saying you don't need potassium and they’re going: but such and such has got lots of potassium, you’ve show me it's got of potassium, and it says on the back of the pack that it’s for peat-free compost. And that's exactly the point. We are setting the consumer up to fail at this time. And we need to stop doing that.

Kate:
Yeah. It’s a tough one - good luck with that!

Paul Oliver:
Hey, I'm Paul over I'm the founder of the Urban Nature Store. We're based in Toronto, Canada. We have a chain of, ten wild birding nature stores, as well as a very active online, retail operation in Canada. And, my role in the company is chief bottle washer and everything from, from marketing to HR and that, but we have a fabulous, fabulous, team that I work with. And, and they're the front line that work with all our customers. And I wouldn't be here if it weren't for them doing my work back there.

The UK has certification standards for environmental and things like that. They mean a lot to people here in the UK and they understand them. Less so in Canada. And it's either partnership with similar organisations so that if it's certified in the UK it's certified in Canada, or if it's certified in Canada, it's in the UK. Reciprocal.
So that we know that if Greenpeace approves of something here, they approve of it everywhere. And so that's probably one area that it's not so much for, industry to do, but the, the groups that do it. To work with their partners around the world so that, it means something to a customer in Toronto that it's certified by an organisation in the UK. So that whether you're a customer in Leeds or you're a customer in Halifax or in Toronto, when you hear something is certified, the wood is sustainable. It means something to you.
And it's the same even within Canada, there are 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 different organisations that may certify something. And if we had 1 or 2 organisations or overriding organisations that if it's certified in the UK, it means something to Canadian consumers.

Kate:
That makes sense. That really does.

Simon Taylor:
I'm Simon Taylor from Empathy and I head up sales and marketing in the company, specifically on the retail sector.

For me and, I mentioned it a few times because, you know, it is what we do, but we watch programmes and, you know, on TV watching farmers, you know, soil health, you know, reducing chemical inputs. I shouldn't be doing this, or I should be doing that. And they're given solutions. And the solutions quite often are technology, which includes soil microbes and mycorrhizas and this sort of thing. And the word bio fertiliser was adopted from that. A product that improves plant… that has living organisms to improve nutrient use efficiency. And for me, when a consumer goes into a garden centre, after watching Countryfile, and soil health, and da da da... looking for what the farmer’s using you know, Well all I can see is fertiliser in here, you know which is chemical and for me you know, over the next five years I want bio fertilisers to be mainstream. And you know what? I wouldn't mind if one of the big companies said, here's our bio fertiliser. Because we put a hand up and say, the reason you did that was because of us. Because we started the trend. We know what we're doing. So, I'd be happy for that to happen. I'd be quite proud, actually, if in ten years’ time, when a consumer goes into a garden centre and buys bio fertiliser by default, not because they're choosing to.

Kate:
Yeah, yeah. Because it's what everybody does.

Simon Taylor:
Because it should be what everybody does or should be doing.

Paul Pleydell:
Good morning I'm Paul Pleydell from Pleydell Smithyman, we are design and business consultants and we help people to add value to their businesses in the garden centre and rural development sector.
I'm going to do that classic thing of - you ask me for one. I'm going to give you two. It’s a bit like Desert Island Discs, can I take two of the discs with me?
Looking forward for the garden centre those next five years. Two things I would love to see changing. One is uncertainty. And uncertainty is crippling everyone at the moment. It's really, really tough. And we need to get past that. We need to… We're a confident industry, we're confident in ourselves. But we need to, you know, in the wider sector and both nationally and globally, we need to overcome uncertainty.
And the other thing I would love to see in the next five years, which is quite an easy one to do. I enjoy it, we all enjoy it. Is everybody smiling. Because if everyone's smiling, things are going well. So, that'll be my parting shot.

Phil:
Oh, that's a really lovely one.

Paul Pleydell:
Yeah. Let's get everyone smiling. As an industry we can do that, it’s a lovely industry, so let's all get out there and smile.

Phil:
Please do subscribe, like and review us on your podcast platform of choice – it only takes a moment, and it helps us to make the podcast possible. If you found this episode useful, do spread the word and share it with your colleagues. Signing up to our mailing list at theunderground.fm will mean that you’ll receive insight and news and new episodes, straight to your inbox.

The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The Underground logo was created by Jan Obara
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.