So today on the Underground Podcast, we are delighted to be joined by Debi Holland. And, Debi Holland is a professional gardener. She's also a garden writer and photographer and a content creator. So, Debbie, welcome to the underground.

Hello. And thank you so much for having me.

Welcome, Debi.

It's great. Great to have you. It's lovely.

Thank you very much.

So let's crack on with the first question. Can you tell us a little bit about your life before horticulture?

Yeah, sure. Like lots of us, we had very diverse career paths before horticulture, which is, as more people I speak to, I find lots of people also have come to horticulture a little bit later in life. So going right back to the beginning, I started, went to art college, studied art and graphic design and then moved into a degree in media specialising in documentary making. And then after that, I was very lucky to go on some nice exotic holidays with my family. And I got to train as a scuba diver when we went on our travels to Mexico and Jamaica. And that certainly led the sort of foundation of being interested in tropical plants, because obviously I hadn't seen things like that before. So that was great to explore. And another very unusual kind of, experience I was lucky to have is that we did go to Venezuela and travelled to the rainforest, which was mind blowing. And to be honest, that really stayed with me, as you can imagine. And as really kind of shook me to my core about how vast it was and all these amazing, diverse creatures and plants that are there. So I've taken that forward with me. But in terms of studying, I went all the way through with with my Paddy dive master course. And I studied in Brighton and became a professional diver. So I worked at a school in Brighton, and, then I wanted to kind of amalgamate the diving with my media studies and managed to get a job in the New Forest working for a underwater film company, which is a bit random, you know? I know, it was quite bizarre when I look back on it now. And I got to work with a lot of very interesting people on a lot of different things, from pop promos to films to commercials and documentaries and really experience just some random things, working with people like Davina McCall and Julian Clary and Richard Branson's round the world Balloon Challenge and some favourite highlights were working with placebo and safety diving, Tori Amos and Bjork. So all those things were really bizarre and and a lifetime ago now, but I'm so glad they happened because of, I think everything you experience when you're younger, you draw on those elements and move them forward with you. You never lose them. But I think life is all about evolving in different phases. And then, later moved to bath and worked for 12 years in the sports training village, which is an Olympic and Paralympic training centre. So started as a PA and then went on to be their website manager. After I had my son and it was absolutely fantastic. I learnt an awful lot and yeah, we worked very, very closely with the press office, covering events, taking photos of events, interviewing athletes and yeah, it really kind of, I learnt to work quickly with the fast turnaround of information and network. I love people, I love chatting, I love people, and you know that was just wonderful because you get to meet so many people and, and then, you know, to actually coherently try and coordinate all that information so that people can, you know, access it from grassroots up to Olympic and Paralympic athletes. So, it's been quite a journey of different things. So yes, it's quite funny how your life can take lots of turns and twists and then you end up in horticulture.

Well, that leads me on to my next question. I mean, I'm just I could listen to you talk about your past all day. No, it's fascinating because I've had a bit of a quirky past myself and people say, oh my gosh, so how come you're a gardener? And I remember saying, you know, if my 18 year old self could see me now, I would have been horrified to know that I'm that I'm getting dirty and gardening and all that kind of thing. So, after that, you know, all this kind of experience that you've had, what on earth led you into, into the world of horticulture?

I'm very lucky I've got a nice garden at home. And I think when we moved into this, the first house we we've ever owned and, we moved in, it was quite a wild garden and discovered there was a greenhouse as we literally uncovered it. We didn't even know one was there. And I really sort of threw myself into it. It was so exciting to suddenly have my own space. And like I say, a lot of our family members, you know, they come from farming backgrounds. So I sort of had it, you know, in the family, like my mom and dad grew up on farms, my husband's grandparents grew up on farms. And so I've always sort of had that background and influence of that, you know, and also my grandparents had a lovely garden in Sussex with an orchard and, you know, the classic kind of happy memories of running around there when you're younger, getting lost all in the nooks and crannies and, you know, greenhouses full of deliciously smelling, you know, tomatoes. So I guess that sort of thing is when you then get a little bit older and then you have a child of your own, it's that kind of history repeating itself. So I, you know, created some raised beds in our garden and just had lots of rows of vegetables and salad that we could grow at home. Then I could show my son how to grow and, you know, get your hands dirty. And then you go and harvest potatoes and seeing their little face, you know, kind of it was really wonderful to show them where food comes from. It's not just from a supermarket. And then out of the blue, my name came up on an allotment, which I've had my name on for a couple of years. And, and it was kind of a surprise when it happened. It was in October, and I literally spent every single day on this allotment, and I mean, it was chaos. It was, you know, bindweed, nettles, you name it, it was every weed known to man. But I loved it. It was just my little sanctuary. I really can't sort of express enough the value of having, you know, if you're lucky enough to have your own space or an allotment of spending time there. It's very healing. You know, it's a lot of time, a lot of thought time. And as well as having time on your own, of course, it's a great community. So you've got the people there that you can have a good chat with and explore ideas, and then talking with a few really nice gardening friends I had, who’re a great influence on me. They were sort of saying, well, you know, why don’t you look into gardening or so forth, because it's something you can really get your teeth into, there’s so much to learn, you know, there’s like years and years and years and years and years of enjoyment really. So I started looking up jobs and I discovered that most of them required RHS qualifications to actually get paid work. And so, my husband was incredibly supportive and said, well, why don't you just book yourself on one? And I was like, oh, really? You know? So anyway, I did, and obviously I had to wait quite a while for the course to come up. But in the meantime, I thought, I need to get some proper hands on experience from professionals. So locally to me, we have a National Trust property called Tyntesield, and I contacted them and they were looking for volunteers. And so I became one of the girls on Monday mornings to go and work in the ward kitchen garden as a harvester. And it was utter bliss. It was just my dream to have that on a Monday morning, to go, and have your team meeting and we all get allocated what fruit and vegetables we're going to go and collect that day and then got to drive this really quirky little I think it's called a Piaggio. It goes about 20 miles an hour and we chug along the estate, you know, taking all the fruit and vegetables up to the cafe so that they used all the organic vegetables and fruit. It was just absolutely amazing. And of course, I was then learning from the professional gardeners there, which was absolutely invaluable. So at the same time, because I don't like doing things by half, as well as having a young son, and juggling all the primary school stuff, I decided to start up my own business. So I started small initially, just working for family friends in their gardens. But I soon discovered that being a female gardener was quite sought after, and it just kind of exploded really. I'm very, very grateful. So locally, yeah, suddenly I was sort of rushed off my feet and, and every garden I was working in you learn something new, and I was really learning on my feet in the beginning. And I'd be coming home and studying my books, and you know, every time I encountered maybe a plant I didn't know, or a process I didn’t understand, I'd go home, I'd read it. And, you know, I do very much like studying, researching. I really enjoyed that. And then in the September of that year, so I'd already been doing it for about ten months, I started my course on Theory at Bristol Botanic Gardens. Which is absolutely wonderful. And then the practical side was down in Cannington Walled Garden, but the college's Bridgwater and Taunton College, and as a combo they were absolutely phenomenal because I had the best of both worlds. I got the practical side of it so I could learn all the theory, and then at the end of the week, I'd go down to campus and I could go and put their skills into practice, actually physically doing it, which was such a benefit. So yeah, highly recommend, you know, if people want to find out about it and you know that RHS diploma was fantastic.

Right. Well, so you mentioned there that you've got your RHS diploma and you've been constantly studying and researching and how important you think that is for developing your career or anybody wanting to develop a career in horticulture, and compare that to maybe the sorts of things that you can pick up from Instagram or whatever.

I think it's really fundamental to get your knowledge grounded and understand, you know, the facts if you like. But I do also feel that, you know, everybody learns in different ways. And Instagram certainly has, and YouTube certainly has, a really important role to play these days. There's many reasons as well. I mean, lots of people, you know, they might not necessarily want to go all the way to doing full time professional gardener role. They might be just wanting to expand their role within their own personal enjoyment. Also, it's like Instagram can provide so many wonderful, you know, answers and the community of sharing information and basically, you know, people have a go. That's the most important thing. Make gardening as accessible as possible. But the only thing I'd say to be a little bit cautious about is, I personally, if I see something, I always want it backed up. So I don't always necessarily take something as read, if I've seen something. I'd see something and go, oh, that's really interesting, then I'll go and look it up in my books at home. Then I'll go and Google it and double check and cross-reference it against everything. And, you know, it's kind of like dotting the I's and T's, but just to make sure that the information you're being fed, that somebody's probably in very good faith, is describing to somebody, but it might not necessarily be correct.

So just kind of cover yourself just sort of check. But, if you're just sort of doing it at home for fun, then just give it a go. Because to be honest, it's far more important to just get stuck in and enjoy it rather than being sort of frightened and thinking, oh, look, I can't. I'm not sure if that's the correct way of doing something.

As, Kate, alluded to in her introduction, you wear an awful lot of hats. And one thing that people may know you from is, as a garden writer. Can you just let us know how you got into that?

Yes. Well, yeah, it's funny how things turn out, isn't it? I've always loved writing, even from a child. And so when I started gardening for my clients, lots of them were always, I sort of became a bit of an advisor as well. They're always asking me lots of advice and, you know, and with border design and everything like this. And so I thought, right, I'm going to do a monthly newsletter that just goes out to my clients, actually. So that's where it started. And I did the laborious way, you know, setting it all out. I printed it all off, put in the envelopes. And then every time I'd go down to a client, I'd drop them their, you know, monthly newsletter. So, I did that for quite a while and then decided, oh, I want to take this a bit further. I've got lots to say, and I love visiting gardens, and I love finding plants in wild places. And I just needed, like, an avenue to sort of vent that, if you like. So, created a website. A dear friend of mine who's an illustrator did a fabulous branding for me, which I'm immensely grateful for. And I started writing a diary-blog on there. So that was a wonderful way for me to kind of get my thoughts down. And also a good, sort of, place to put my photos, because I love taking photos, but rather than them just kind of floating around in iCloud or whatever, it's nice to have them, you know, actually on display. And, you know, sharing with people, that's the most important thing. You can share these things with people. So that came about and then I entered a competition. The actual, kind of, getting through to becoming a garden writer. I entered a competition for Richard Jackson Gardens, and I won, actually won twice, two years on the trot. And from that they had a look at my diary blog and then invited me to write features for them because they were really happy with what they saw. So I was, well, absolutely over the moon. And it just shows you actually that also doing these things, you know, because sometimes we're all in our own little kind of cyber worlds, if you like, and you can sometimes feel, oh gosh, am I just talking to myself?

Kate and I feel like that all the time!

So Phil, in case you don't know, Richard Jackson, you might know him, he was QVC flower power, but also Richard Jackson started up Greenfingers charity. So, yeah, so very influential. And, I've met him once. He seems a lovely, lovely man. So, yeah, very knowledgeable as well. So flower power?

Yes. Absolutely, absolutely. And so then there's a another couple of avenues, plant Smith and Garden news. So Garden news was the next one. I've always been a fan of Garden News magazine and when my son was really young, I used to take photos of us doing things, and it might have been my son, you know, sowing seeds or something. And we send them in to the readers page. And it turned out that kind of like every other week or every week, we were kind of being posted in there, which was tremendously exciting. I can't, you know, so, and then, you know, the family would see them and it was just all really nice. But they said, oh, we do have a voluntary role, which was writing a column every month, on your own garden, which was called Over the Fence. So I did that and I absolutely loved it, and I did that for two and a half years. So it's quite amazing. And so again, I kept persevering. And, then they contacted me and a position had come up on their what to do in the garden this week team. And so I joined that. And I've been doing that ever since, which I'm absolutely, over the moon. I love doing it. And then the last one I'm extremely proud of as well is houseplants. I'm an absolute houseplant addict. And, Plant Smith is the other element to my main element up to my writing that I do. And actually, Plant Smith is an offshoot of Richard Jackson Garden. It was formulated by his son. So they, well, he, has created this incredible range of vegan, cruelty free houseplant food and care products. And I was writing some houseplant articles for Richard Jackson. And then it kind of just naturally came about that they needed somebody to write posts there. So I am now the editor of Plant Smith of their Advice and Care blog, which is fabulous. So I'm very, very, very enthusiastic about that.

And is that the bottles behind you?

Oh yes it is, actually.

Because I really love their packaging. They almost look like kind of aromatherapy, don't they? It's a lovely a lovely concept.

It's so beautiful. I have to say I am really, really taken with the packaging. The bottles are beautiful.

So, leading on from that Debi. So you're a professional gardener and you work five days a week. So what is it that keeps you gardening for other people rather than kind of pursuing more of the the media roles?

Well, it does compliment my writing very, you know, seamlessly as well, which is great. I think it's really personally, for me, I find it's really important to have my hands in the soil. I love the balance between doing the writing and also being a practical gardener as well, because it keeps me really in tune with literally, well, you know what it's like. It's every day, really. Every week something changes, you're never going to get bored. And I love being able to be immersed in that, have that connection with nature so that I really, really do understand first hand what's going on in the garden that week because I've physically seen it, you know, I’m seeing what pollinators are around or not. Yeah. You know, we've all been a little bit concerned about the reduced numbers in pollinators this year. But also on a positive side, I have, you know, when you're sort of working really closely with it all, you're going on walks. You know, a lot of my walks, they're all based around nature and getting out there. And then you do sort of see, things as they're happening. So you get a real grasp on the concept of, you know, what's actually happening in our environment right now. Yeah, I'd say that's what keeps me gardening. It's, you know, the connection with nature. And then there's just these wonderful friendships with people. I've been through so much with all these lovely people I work with. And yeah, it's got so many benefits. Gardening really. You know, plants in general are just so positive.

So you describe yourself as an organic wildlife gardener? I think you have touched on this a bit, but why? Why is it so important to you? And do you have any good tips that can encourage, wildlife into people's gardens?

Yeah. Yeah, I'm really passionate about organic gardening and looking after wildlife. And, with all the kind of horrifying scary news in the past of, you know, declining wildlife, insects, pollinators and, wildflower meadows in huge decline since near the 50s. And so I think a lot of people have been really proactive in trying to turn this around. And sometimes I can feel really overwhelmed by all the things that are going on with, you know, climate change and the environment. And I think it's important to try and think that we can help one garden at a time. So this is where I kind of try and be a positive influence, like with the people I work for, the clients I work for, because one garden at a time, we can make really interesting changes that make a big difference.

Like we planted a native hedge, huge length of the garden. And that was about two years ago. Three years ago. And it's grown. It's, you know, completely filled in. And it's this incredible native hedge with a variety of all different plants and it's full of birds, it's full of insects. And you see, if you see results in action, I think that's where you can also encourage others to take part. And one thing that has been incredibly exciting in my own garden, which I have been posting on Instagram, is that we now have in my very ordinary urban garden, we have a resident hedgehog and I'm so excited. I literally couldn't believe it. And he's been living in my greenhouse. Well, he or her, I don't know but I'm going to say he. But living in my green house. So the greenhouse is now out of bounds. But, it's interesting. Our garden, it's evolved. And it's like when you say about sort of tips that you can do to encourage wildlife into your garden, I've found that, over the years, there's lots of things that have really made a massive difference. So I'm a no dig gardener. So the garden just kind of, you know, I add things to it and I mulch. Love mulch. Yes. Oh, you know, you love mulch. And and peat free is also essential to me. So, you know, making your own compost and every year I've done no mow May with plant life and that also morphs into June and July. Yeah, it's just had such a huge impact on the amount of insects that are in our garden. And then what we did this year, it was just mowed some paths into the back garden because initially, no mow May was all about the front garden. But this year we've also embraced it in the back rather than just having the borders, put these paths in. And oh, and the other thing is also planting are very diverse, you know, amount of plants, you know, you want a good variety because different insects are attracted to different plants. So say, for example, if you're even just thinking about bees. Bees, I don't know if you know, have different length tongues and so different. So for example, if you planted, foxgloves, you know, the long tongued bees can get to get into those tubular flower trumpets, whereas other ones much more favour very open, singular flowers. You know, like, might you have a single flower dahlia or something? So if you provide, you know, it's important. Don't get too hung up on which is a precise plant. Just plant a variety of things and you will be covering all bases. Because of that, you'll be attracting different insects attracted to that flower. And then the offshoot of that is because when you do have more insects coming into your garden, you get hedgehogs. If you're lucky. Oh, we also have resident bats that seem to live in the garden next to us, but we are very lucky that we get the whole display every evening about 10:00 at night, when they fly around. So then you think, goodness, when you see results, you see, you know, your garden has become an ecosystem. You realise, wow, yeah, it’s worth it.

You’re invested in it aren't you!

Yep. Absolutely. Yes. And you’re like goodness, the things you're not using pesticides. I never use pesticides. You know, the feed I use on my garden is organic seaweed or I make nettle or comfrey feed. And it's just keeping things simple, you know, and letting things kind of naturally evolve. And it's quite surprising what can happen.

So, Debi, as you know, on this podcast we’ve been delving into the world of peat-free gardening. And as you alluded to there, you’re a keen advocate of peat-free. How have your gardening clients taken to that? Are they on board with you? Do you have to persuade them?

No. Well it's brilliant because they are really on board with it. I never force my views on anybody because I do think it's really important that everybody's opinion and everybody's garden is their own sanctuary. So I'm very respectful that, you know, people might not have the same opinions as me or the same, gardening practices that they want to undertake as me. But luckily, you know, because I do talk about peat free and organic wildlife gardening, everybody's kind of rolled with it. So things have evolved over the years. And, you know, the gardens that I work in, each one of them actually, will have multiple compost heaps, which is absolutely wonderful. One's for all garden waste and then also for collecting leaf mould. You know, we make leaf mould, which is just absolutely wonderful for improving soil structure and adding nutrition. And so if you're not, you can cut down the requirement for a start on needing to buy anything in, if you make your own compost. Now, I appreciate not everybody may have room, and that's completely understandable. But there are other systems that you can, purchase now, which you can use, even if you've got like a balcony or something, you can have little smaller composting systems on your balcony. That's one thing I'd really say is, if you can have a compost heap, that's absolutely fantastic because you're generating all your own, growing medium without having to buy it in. That also cuts down on plastic because you're not having to buy, you know, compost in plastic bags. Having said that, there are also lots of companies now that are producing wonderful peat free products.

And again, it's a bit of trial and error. Some are better than others, and you just need to kind of experiment a little bit and see what works for you. So I'd say that's really out there, whereas it used to be really, really difficult to find peat free compost in garden centres. And still sometimes I'm surprised the ratio and you’re thinking, goodness, come on. But, I'm seeing it more and more now. It's shifting that there's more, you know, demand. So thankfully it's being listened to. And then the other thing I'll say is I, really love hiking and I do an awful lot. I'm very lucky. I do a lot of hiking in the Lake District and the Beacons and Dartmoor when I get a chance. But what I found really important is when I am on these hikes, particularly the Lake District which I have been lucky enough to come back from recently, is actually seeing peat in situ, in its natural environment is a game changer. Because it is. It hosts such a diverse collection of plants and wildlife. And when I've been privy to seeing it, you just think, leave it there. You can't. I truly can't bear the thought of it being all dug up just to go in some bags to be put in someone's garden. It just seems ludicrous. No.

You’re digging up plants just to grow plants.

Yeah, to put plants, which is just completely counter-intuitive. So, one plant that I was absolutely desperate to come across and see again was sundew. On my recent trip, they were. I've gone from sundew being, like, a rare sighting. Well, I've seen it about once in the Lake District, and I know the precise grid reference of where it is, to the other week, they were absolutely everywhere. And I am a bit of a kind of nerd. I mean, good company. I, you know, my husband is very patient because our hikes always take so much longer than they really should because I keep stopping, I know I drive him mad.

I'm absolutely the same. In fact, I posted about a sundew I found on Dartmoor a few weeks ago.

Oh my Gosh. Oh I'm going to have to look that up. Yeah I was so excited because they frequent, kind of, you know, the peat bogs and you often find them near running water and they're normally, I'm very interested in plants at altitude, where plants grow at different attitudes. And they’re around 200 to 250m you normally naturally find them. And so when we were on our hike and looking at the metre to see roughly where we are, you know, and then my eyes are peeled and I'm like, Hawkeye, I'm just kind of like.

You know. We're walking along, but I've got one eye on the ground trying not to fall over, and I'm looking and I'm just looking for that sort of tinge of sort of ready foliage. And I think, oh, there is one. And then that's it. My husband's lost me. I'm down on the ground taking photos and looking at it, and you just, to actually see plants in their natural environment, you know, they've chosen to grow there is really, really precious.

It's so lovely to hear you say that because that was me two weeks ago on Dartmoor, I went swimming in there, wild swimming in the lake. And that's when I saw the sundews and that was that. And exactly it was all peat land. Yeah. And seeing that I kind of did a little reel about, you know, this is peat land and this is what grows here. It might look bleak from a distance. But you can get up close.

And there's so much going on, isn't there.

And then if you see a bit where that's kind of eroded a bit and you get kind of the strata, it's just it's amazing. Yeah. So I'm totally on your wavelength on that one. And my partner was just like, yeah, come on.

I've been reading just recently about the Georgian and the Victorian Plant Hunters and I was having a conversation with my wife just yesterday, actually, and I said, you know, the one thing that I didn't understand was the fact that when they're describing these people and they say, and they went off and they did a spot of botanising, and I was like, I can't picture that. I can't imagine what that was. And now you've said about what your trip to the Lake District and going on your walk and I'm like, thats it! That's what it is.

Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Doing a spot of botanising.

Yeah, that sounds like it should be a t shirt.

You might have started something now.

I'm going to ask you about our pretty dismal summer. Now, yesterday afternoon it was lovely and sunny here. No, not the warmest. And then I woke up this morning and I can't see. And actually, there was an Instagram post this morning from quite a well-known influencer, Garden City boy, I think, saying, who else is so not into gardening at the moment because of the weather? Yeah. So I mean, it was quite a good post, you know, but we had so many young people who took up gardening during lockdown and, if we can remember, it was an incredible spring and summer. Have you got any advice or tips to just keep people motivated, keep them going, whatever the weather?

Yes. I think houseplants are the answer. Yeah. We have had a very challenging weather year this year, and it can get you a bit down because, you know, normally we're used to being out in our garden from, you know, dawn to dusk and all the lovely, you know, outdoor air and tinkering around our garden watering we're doing. But, you know, you have to sort of pick and choose your moments. My house is completely and utterly full of houseplants, and we have obviously sort of seen a real upsurge in their popularity. And, you know, young people getting involved is absolutely vital to get them interested in this whole scene, you know, the whole horticultural industry and a lot of people obviously, they perhaps live in student halls they're studying or they live in a flat or they don't own their own home. And so actual gardening-gardening in a private garden might not be something that's available to them. So I find that houseplants are such an easy gateway into the horticulture industry, because you can have as many or as little plants as you like. You all you need is a windowsill or a desk, you know, and choose something that's really easy to look after so that you're not going to sort of stress yourself out with trying to keep something alive. If you feel, you know, there's nothing more depressing, as if you've killed your plant. But, yeah, there's lots of plants that are really super easy to look after. And the other thing that I find extremely interesting and will keep people's enthusiasm up is propagating, because lots of houseplants, they're actually super easy to propagate. And it's a great project. And, if you are kind of a bit short of money so you can't spend loads of money on lots of houseplants, then why don't you sort of club together with some friends, you know, and each choose a different plant, and then you propagate them and then share them with each other. And gifts some plants. I mean, who doesn't like plants as a gift? You know, it puts a smile on your face, doesn't it? So and that sense of achievement, if you've actually managed to propagate that plant yourself, you do feel rather proud of yourself. So yeah, my hot tip would be houseplants.

So Debi, with all your skills and your like, eclectic, amazing past that you've got, what keeps you in the world of horticulture?

Oh, it is just such an exciting industry to work in because to be honest, I'm constantly learning. It doesn't matter how much you study, there's always something else to learn. It really is limitless. And I find that you can really absorb yourself in one element. You think, gosh, and you get really interested in a particular plant or something. So I like being able to be completely immersed in a topic where I just never ever get bored. It's, you know, they say every day is a school day, but it is really true, to be honest. I've been really quite interested with the Open University and, you know, the courses are free and there's lots of horticulture courses on there that you can sort of dip into. And, they’re just kind of participation courses. But I've done, Introduction to Ecosystems, which was absolutely fascinating. And neighbourhood nature, that was very much about woodland management and species. And then a slightly different slant that I'm studying at the moment is the science of nutrition and healthy eating. Which does also obviously lapse over because of, you know, growing what you eat and organic produce is so important. And, I had a few health issues a while back and I had to really address food, what I was eating that really made me sort of think about everything, you know, lifestyle and so forth. And, it's just such a fascinating course. And of course, you can just dip in and out. And then it relates back very much. It makes you think how important organic food is and spurs you on even more to grow your own, just understanding, you know, foods without pesticides and you know, so yes, I just love that there's just so many different facets to it. That's all I can say really. It is limitless. It's brilliant.

Wow, that sounds fantastic. And that Open University. That sounds like an amazing resource.

Yeah, write it down. Have a Google. It's it's brilliant. You’ll be looking on it and as well as horticulture there's so many environmental courses as well of varying lengths and yeah, there's a whole host of different topics to, to dip into there. So that's really, really good.

So Debbie, I'm going to ask one final question. And that is, what plant brings a smile to your face and why.

It's sweet peas. I find them just such a beautiful, exquisitely scented plant that it doesn't matter where I am, whose garden, I'm always drawn to the sweet peas. They look beautiful when they're just all hanging up, growing up whatever climbing frames and supports they’re on. I don't think there's anything nicer than picking a bunch of sweet peas and either having your cut flowers in your own home or, better still, giving them to someone. Because just recently, I cut a load of bunches of sweet peas and then gave them as presents to family, and it was just seeing the smiles on their faces was so nice. The smell is intoxicating. And I think it just kind of, in a way, cast us all back to our childhood. In a way. There's such a scent of summer that, yeah, sweet peas always make me smile.

Fantastic. And they've been amazing this year. They've loved the water, they've loved the wet. So they've just been constantly growing. They are just beautiful.

Yes. You get so much from just one plant. I think that's what's fascinating. They just, you know, just keep cut and come again and they just go on and on. So they really are worth the investment in growing from seed and bringing them, nurturing them all the way through.

So thank you so much, Debi, for coming to talk to us today. It's been fascinating. And just so yeah, exciting. And I love your positivity and the energy that you bring to the conversation as well. It's been wonderful.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Oh you're welcome. So Phil, that was a lovely conversation with Debi.

It really was, I just loved her enthusiasm for everything that she spoke about. Yeah, it really was. It came across in spades and was just so refreshing, wasn't it?

Well, I do think a lot of people we've spoken to, it is their passion that's come through. I think we Debi, she's so eloquent and manages to put forward her thoughts and ideas so well, and that makes it so engaging. So a lot of things she was saying can really relate to.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love Debi’s whole attitude towards learning, you know. I feel that was great. You know she’s a lifelong learner.

Yes. I'm going to look at the Open University. Definitely. And I loved the way she talked about it is important to have that knowledge base to back up what you're saying, and to just go back and check that there always is knowledge out there with horticulture, always knowledge. And as she said, you never stop learning.

Yeah. Absolutely brilliant. Thanks, Kate.

Thanks, Phil.