Phil:
So, it's my absolute pleasure to welcome onto the podcast Alan Roper, the managing director of Blue Diamond. Welcome, Alan.

Alan:
Hi, guys.

Kate:
Hi there. Alan.

Alan:
Nice to do a follow up.

Phil:
Yeah, absolutely. It's great to have you back on.

Alan:
When was the last time we spoke? I can't remember, time goes so quickly.

Phil:
I think it was probably about last March.

Kate:
Was it really.

Alan:
March 24.

Phil:
2024 - Yeah.

Alan:
Oh, wow. There you go.

Phil:
Yeah. So was quite a while ago. And, since then, you've had quite a time with Blue Diamond. Been making some big moves, including purchasing a few of the former Dobbies centres and, now Barton Grange. So, what made Barton Grange for stand out?

Alan:
Probably the price tag!

Kate:
That's a start.

Alan:
Well, I think and everyone in the industry knows that Barton Range is one of the sort of iconic garden centres, independents. And I guess, for me, on the journey of growing the group, most of our opportunities have always been, you know, people coming to a point in their life where they want to sell their centre or, new builds that I've done, or failing centres.
You know, the Wyevale’s are obviously a big part that journey. And so, I haven't really been faced with many opportunities where you have got a very successful business that actually is successful on the bottom line. So, there are a lot of, you know, successful businesses out there, but there's also a lot of businesses that, you know, appear successful and but it doesn't always translate to the bottom line.
Barton Grange was an exception. You know, it was, for a £15.5 million garden centre. It was delivering the profit that you would expect from a business of that size and hence the multiple on the price tag. So, I guess the question for me with Barton Grange was, normally we get opportunities where the opportunity cost is much lower and the upside is much greater.
So therefore, you face the question, are you better off using that cash for, cheaper opportunities that, you know, you could get to a level that would potentially be on a par with Barton Grange, which we have in our portfolio. But I guess, for me, when I look at our business, we have now in our stable of the garden centres, a lot of successful, iconic independent centres.
So, you know, you've got the likes of Van Hagues, it's a notable one. Cadbury Garden centre, a lot of people would remember that was, Emporium, Frosts, Persey Thrower, you know, Endsleigh people remember Sanders, you know, the list goes on. Bridgemere Garden World as it was known garden centre, which we've, restored to its former glory.
Removed the, crazy golf dinosaur and the WH Smith, and invested in the gardens that were there dates back to 1988. So, it kind of fits in terms of joining those sort of, destination garden centres, albeit at a higher, price point. And also, I think it's kind of sends a message to people that are in the industry and we're in this sort of demographic, place where a lot of people that own successful independent garden centres are of an age where they are facing retirement.
And I know a quite a few of these and their children, are of the digital age, and they've probably seen their parents getting stressed and arguing with each other and, and kind of feel it's not for them, which is the case from a number of people I've spoken to. So, what do they do, you know, faced with that?
So, I do see more opportunities on the horizon. Guy Topping, you know, has publicly quoted that, he felt that we would be the right fit for his team and that we will protect the brand of Grange. And we will. And we will protect the team, we will protect Barton Grange. And I think by demonstrating, doing that again with such a large, iconic business, it kind of signals to other owners of garden centres who might be thinking of selling or leasing their centre that Blue Diamond is a safe place to entrust your legacy. For us to carry on your brand and your garden centre into the future. And so, I think that was a big part of why I chose to spend quite a lot of money on Barton Grange.

Phil:
So when you're looking at the sites that you've acquired recently, Alan, how do they fit into your overall larger Blue Diamond story?

Alan:
It's an interesting one. When I started out, people used to say to me, why you're not just putting Blue Diamond out of the door, calling it Blue Diamond Garden Centres like you call Dobbies Garden Centres, Wyevale Garden Centres. And I said, well, if I do that, I destroy the reputation and the brand which has been built up for years and that locality.
And the one thing to understand about garden centres, they play a very strong role in community. One of the first deals I did was Wilton House Garden Centre, in Wilton House, out of Pembroke Down in Wiltshire. Very famous house. I’m never going to turn it into Blue Diamond, you keep Wilton House. It's part of Wilton House. The same down in Chatsworth. It's part of Chatsworth. Grosvenor, part of the Grosvenor Estate. So, I took a decision. 25 years ago, that I would go down this road and maintain and people would say, well, we would never develop the Blue Diamond brand. But I could tell you that people do very much. I guess that's still surprising me how strong our brand has become.
If we move into an area, we’re buying Barton Grange. A lot of people who already visit our centres further south in Fryers or Grosvenor, were going into and saying to our staff, I hear that Blue Diamond’s buying Barton Grange, and then they’re telling them, based on their experience of Fryers and Grosvenor, that it would be a good thing for them because they see Fryers. They see… I think the customer has acknowledged or understood who Blue Diamond are that we’re Blue Diamond, but we also champion these brands and protect these brands and protect the identity and the history of these centres. So, I guess the answer your question is it's part of our brand, part of our story, rather than how it fits in.
So, it's like they're the part of the Blue Diamond family, but each one keeps its local identity.
Yeah it does. Yeah. I think if you're going to have success as a group, I mean, groups fail because they treat people like Thunderbirds puppets and they want to pull their strings. And, you know, if you're going to have success and the bigger you get, you know, it's a big business. I mean, we'll push… we'll hit through the 400 million turnover barrier this year.
If you're going to continue to manage a business at that size, you need strength of ownership throughout the business. And that's really important within the centres themselves. They have to feel that they own that business, that they're proud to belong to that business. So, you give them, a sense of ownership where they have an ability to feel that they can make decisions in store to drive things.
I mean, they've signed up to our retail religion and our brand, so they do it within the context of that. But they do have this ownership. They don't have people turning up in, you know, cars getting out, doing operational floor walks, checking up on what they're doing. We don't do any of that. What we do do, is you have visibility through the numbers and a benchmarking system, that allows them to see their own opportunities and make decisions to deliver on those profit opportunities that they can see compared to their peers in the group.
I don't need someone to go and tell them they should be doing it this way or that way, and completely and utterly demoralise them. I give them the management tools to look at the figures and see the opportunities for those and act on those, and that's how you get strength, and that's how you get ownership. And you don't get Thunderbirds - shows you how old I am!

Phil:
I think that leads nicely onto my next question, actually, Alan. So, I think, what you were saying there is fundamental to what you believe and how you think that, Blue Diamond won't fall into some of the same traps that maybe Wyevale did and Dobbies when they nearly collapsed. So. I mean, is that right? Is is that what you think, that’s the key?

Alan:
Yes. It is. Wyevale were like a Dyson vacuum cleaner. I always remember they went around hoovering up Garden Centres. It didn't matter what size, what location? They just bought them. And that started long before the private equity boys. The problem had started many, many years before that. People don't see that, then they should quit Wyevale they see it was the private equity that cocked it up, well, they did, but the problems were so acute within it because of, you know, people have got these egos about the number of centres that you have, you know? I quite often, see the trade media report on the number centres. It's not about the numbers of centres, it's about the quality of what you have and it's about your overall turnover.
You know, once you get in the numbers game, oh, I got to have X amount. I'm up to 70 or 80 or 90. You lose focus. And I don't think you really understand what it is that your ambition or your goal is. And that always ends in failure. And for me, it's always been about the quality of the opportunity and growing at a sustainable right.
So, it's a combination of making sure you're buying the right business to focus on your target consumer. And it's the same as supermarkets. Your target consumer is not anyone that's got a garden - that doesn't work like that, that you have to identify through socio-economic principles, define whether you're a value driven retailer or you're an aspirational retailer. Is it value and volume, or is it aspiration?
And there are some, you know, there are some good operators in retail generally also within the garden centre sector, you know, the offer real value and do significant volumes. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it's not how I want to retail. I prefer to retail, to a more aspirational customer base. And defining your customer and growing sustainably, not getting egocentric about the number of centres, is key.

Phil:
Yeah. So this numbers game that you just referring to there, Alan, would you say that's a stark warning for some of the other chain owners?

Alan:
I would – without mentioning any names.

Kate:
Ooh. You could mention names!
So let's just move on a bit. Alan. So, you've always said gardening is the heart of Blue Diamond. And with each destination you’ve got food halls, fashion, restaurants and they’re all growing fast. Do you still see Blue Diamond first and foremost as a garden centre business? Or is it now much broader than that now.

Alan:
I suppose by definition of what you've said about the categories we do and fashion, it's much broader, but then, nearly every independent garden centre is the same. The only difference is they tend to have clothing concessions, whereas our clothing is a proper design team who design all of their clothing, do their bit and go to the factories in Turkey and Italy and India, China and produce. And so, we have the Cerulean brand and, and it's all our own brand, you can't buy anywhere else. And it's not someone else's product with our label in that is exclusive. They've actually created it all themselves. So, there's a big difference in the way we approach things.
But to get back to your question, I still see us as garden centres. And I think the day that our customers don't see us as a credible garden centre will be the day that things start to crash. But as always, you, you know, it's long ago proven that you can't retail on just the gardening cycle. You know, obviously Christmas was a big part of that going back to the 80s. That helped stabilise the year and then other profit centres have got bolted on. But unlike you know, Wyevale boys that brought in, you know crazy dinosaurs and WH Smith and Costa Coffee and you know, and just concessions for the sake of it, we don't have other people's businesses under our roof. There are a few exceptions, where we have a like a multi retail park where we will have them in separate units, but not under the same garden centre roof.
So, you know, which means that we can create a more cohesive and less jarring retail experience in terms of the tone and the flow. You know, gardening’s still growing, but government policies and costs, are increasing all the time. And we're going through a big phase at the moment where costs are increasing. And I wrote in my recent report and accounts for our financial year last year, which people can find on our website under Investor Relations called The Missing Millions, which illustrates the extent to which government policy has damaged the bottom line for a lot of businesses in this country, and we're no exception.
And it removed 12.6 million. I think the number was on our bottom line, which is through wage inflation triggered by two successive minimum wage increases and a further one this year, along with a increase in national insurance. And it's not just the minimum wage. You know, if you're, a good employer, you maintain the hourly rate gap between minimum wage. So if someone was, £1 more than the minimum wage, we've maintained that. But when the second round came in, that started putting pressure up between, people that were just doing an hourly rate and a supervisor, and then the supervisor puts pressure. So, you've got this huge wage inflation. And, and that's been the cost to us. Now, I'm not against a decent minimum wage, all I'm saying is that it has a consequence on bottom line, and you've got to push back and try and, mitigate that and protect your bottom line. Otherwise you can't continue to invest in the business. So therefore, I guess if I'm trying to link back to where your question started, these other profit centres I talk about, whether it's fashion or home are important. Without them, most garden centre businesses would struggle.

Phil:
So, Alan, I know that you're going to be speaking at Glee this year. But your mainstage presentation is going to be a little bit different. I gather you're going to be answering questions from anyone in the industry. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Alan:
Yeah, I mean, I prefer questions, to kind of, you know, I got up and did a thing at GIMA about how I operate the business, which is all fine, but I do feel that a little bit more frank, transparent honesty and debate about this industry would be more helpful to people. I remember myself starting out 35 years ago, and my keenness to understand more about the industry and understand how business works, the pressures and keen to soak up experiences from people that were further the down the business road than I was. I guess my, agreement to do these things is for people to ask me questions, what they want to know, so I can help them. I was in that space years ago, and I think there could be too many kind of platitudes. And everyone's saying everything's great and everything's lovely, and that doesn't get anybody anywhere.
What gets people somewhere is getting into detail some honest, strong questions and some truthful answers. And, I hopefully people that are listening to that question and answer session will learn something, be they a supplier or a garden centre retailer.

Phil
Fantastic. We’ll, share the link so that people can submit their questions - we'll share that in our show notes.

Kate:
So apart from this, the Q&A. What keeps you coming back to, to Glee? Why do you feel you need to be there Alan? You know, is there anything you're looking forward to about going there in 2025?

Alan:
I go there in the hope that we can find new suppliers. The existing suppliers there, it's not really important that we see them because we can see them at any time. It might be different for independents that don't have the time or the access that we get as a group. I get that, but for me, I hope I'm going to find new suppliers, which is why I've long held the view that the European model for trade shows is better than the English model.
Because if you listen to what suppliers will always tell you and the likes of Smart Solar, they’re a successful company, you know, they felt why do we need to keep paying these heavy fees to Glee when we can grow our business without them? And the fees are there because entry is free, whereas I think, you know, I think what SPOGA’s up to now, but it's probably £25 - £30, something like that. And I don't think £25, £30 is much to ask of someone if it means that, when I walk into the show I can see smaller, more niche suppliers, start-up businesses looking to get into the industry. That gives you more choice to pick up new products. I'd happily pay £300 entrance fee for that, you know, if I enriched my choice.
But what I do hear, is, you know, suppliers saying, well, it's a bit pricey. So, Glee tend to broaden the church of products when you go in there. I think I've seen pets and a lot more Chinese people's sitting in booths. But what I want to see is more depth within a category.
And to get more depth in a category you need to encourage more suppliers, and those supplies are not going to be the dominant garden centre suppliers, they're going to be smaller suppliers. That's why, to answer your question, I'm looking for new product, new suppliers, because that it's what moves the needle, that moves the growth needle. But then I do think there is an unacknowledged barrier to more suppliers engaging in Glee to give us the choice. So there you go.

Kate:
Okay. So last time we spoke Alan, you mentioned investing in your own nurseries to secure supply. How is that going?

Alan:
Good and bad.

Kate:
Right. Do you want to expand.

Alan:
So, on the seasonal nurseries which used to be called Meredith's it's been very good, because it was a well-run business before we bought it. And the team there are excellent, and the quality is very, very good. I mean, all of our garden centre teams acknowledge the quality, which was the main reason for buying that nursery, because had we not bought them and we were 60% of their business, we would have had to… and they were bought by another, operator, we would have had to have gone elsewhere and continuity is important to us.
And so, some of the even bigger producers that might be producing for the sheds, the quality is not where we need it to be. So that’s why we bought... So that's been successful, and it enabled us to shape our offer with a greater degree of flexibility. On the hardy side, when I picked up Bridgemere nurseries that's been more of a painful journey.
So yeah, millions of pounds of notes on the bonfire. So, it's been a very expensive journey, and we've made management changes and we're going to make further changes. So, we're getting on top of it. And we're going to push through it and we're going to kind of look at what we're growing. But it just shows you running a successful nursery is not easy, but we're not going to give up, even though it has it has been an expensive journey.
I think once we get into next year, we're hopefully see the sun come up on the hardy. But the seasonal has been very successful. The hardy, it's been painful, but we'll get through it.

Phil:
A slightly left field question for you, Alan. Little Dobbies, which was a concept store for, on the high street, didn't really take off. Do you think there's a future for urban garden stores in the UK? And is that something that you think Blue Diamond would ever look at?

Alan:
Well, I'll answer the last question first. No, I wouldn’t.
I guess when I heard about it, like Little Dobbies, and then I went to visit one, I went into the Cheltenham store.

Phil:
Okay. Yeah.

Alan:
I want to dovetail that with the fact that I remember I think it was about, 2013. I was building Redfields – bear with me – and houseplants were kind of disappearing, the trend was not where it is now. And I remember making the decision, well, I'm not going to give up on this. So, we're committing to a large house plant area, even though, the sales did and justify it.
So had Dobbies gone into the high street, then I would have said it was absolute madness. But what happened next was out of the blue House Plants suddenly exploded. It all came back. You know, the Swiss cheese plant I had as a student in my in my Pershore College room came back and became the best-selling plant from the, you know, the 70s.
So when that I that trend came and Dobbies were doing house plants and I went into, I kind of got it because of all of the, the residential people who in particularly places like Cheltenham, where it's quite wealthy and there's a lot of renters and I got it. And I think there is - providing the trend for house plant stays - I think there's something in it. Bearing in mind that high street rents are somewhat different and you've got to get the profit per square metre. So, I'd always be very intrigued to dabble and try to see whether you could make the economies work. But on paper, I got it. You're living in, you know, quite an AB1 town. This is the kind of towns you’ve got. You've got all these great apartments and you want to have, you know, green up your living space and you've probably got balconies and I totally got it. I just thought the execution of it was flawed and, if truth be told, I'll tell you why they did it. It was like everything else they did, including the Waitrose, it was building a message to float on the stock market.
That's all it was about. It was never, about, okay let's see how we can make this profitable and work. It was all the timing, yeah, we're going to see they'll say that we got all these Little Dobbies, it's a bit like little Waitrose and the little Tesco's and little, you know, and, and all these people will come in and that's all they'll see. And they'll just see a wonderful growth opportunity and think, wow, that's what it was all about. I don't think when you look at the execution and you talk to those involved at the time, which I did, that it was ever really a serious play.

Phil:
That's a shame.

Alan:
I mean, put it this way, if I had to be in place and manage that for the next ten years to make it work, I don't think they would have started it.

Kate:
So, talking about houseplants, Alan, you know, the younger generation are still madly into houseplants. Do you see that being reflected within your garden centres? Are younger people coming in? Are you grabbing them, with the houseplants and then kind of encouraging them to, to buy more? And if not, what can we do to get more young people through the door?

Alan:
Yeah. It's a good question. And I've got… the funny thing is, when I go around, the, our centres and I look at the people, running the houseplant areas, I've noticed even within our employees that there's a tendency for the younger generation to be running them, and they're very passionate about it.
And, you know, we've got one chap, he's my… I call him my lovechild because he's got the same surname! And we don't I don't normally come across another Roper, and he's, you know, he's in his early mid 20s, so he could be. But he's not! But it's a running joke that we have. Anyway, he's very passionate and he posts stuff on social media.
And there's another chap in Mere Park who, you're right to pick up on this because, it's something that when I get a moment that we need to do more of in terms of content messaging on social media to do with houseplants, I think we're all behind on that. But it's something that's on my mental job list, to do, because I've got passionate people already in the garden centres that could definitely, if we work with them could reach out to young people, but there’s definitely something there.

Kate:
So, I'm going to, well, we can't have you on the podcast without talking about peat free I'm afraid it is still a big topic. No ban’s come into place. So, last year’s weather was terrible for a lot of peat free compost production. Has that changed how Blue Diamond’s approaching the switch to peat free? What are your customers telling you?

Alan:
Well. There's a product on the market called Jack’s Magic, which is, Westland and, that still has a high level of peat. And I would say that for most people, it's been the best-selling compost.

Kate:
Right. Okay.

Alan:
And the reason for that is, that as we make our journey into peat free, so, I'm pretty sure in saying that our sales are of growing media overall, despite the Jack’s Magic, is getting close to 90%. Okay. Because, you know, we don't have peat in our own brand. We do Jack’s Magic because the customer wants it. But outside of that, we're very broadly peat free. So, we've made that journey.
But our peat free, journey has not been easy. In the same way, it hasn't been easy for the customer because the quality of what's been produced has been there. And as nurseries have realised and as our plant managers and our plant teams in the garden centres who are now having to manage peat free plants in the plant area that dry out quicker than you can, you know, dry your hair, it's a real challenge.
And so, we kind of start putting capillary matting on all our benches in the plant areas to kind of keep the compost. And there's still work being done by the manufacturers. They're all still trying to get to be the one that kind of has the best peat free. But it's been very start, start very difficult, very challenging. But the momentum is still there, and it will happen.
You don't you don't need a ban to make it happen. It's going to happen.

Kate:
You think so?

Alan:
The ban not coming in place, it hasn't slowed our progress, and I don't think it's slowed the progress of a lot of retailers because suppliers are very keen on the market of peat free. But it allows, the ban has allowed… or not having the ban has allowed people time to produce a better product. Does that, hopefully that answered your question?

Kate:
Yeah. No, it has, I just… are you on the lookout for new suppliers? Will you be seeing if there's anybody new at Glee this year, that that is kind of maybe got the formula right?

Alan:
Oh yeah. I will always, yeah absolutely. I will review compost production every year because if somebody makes the right breakthrough, you know, there was one, you know, supplier came in early, and we tried it and it was, what was it? Anaerobic digest…

Kate:
Digestate.

Alan:
Yeah. And it was like sowing your seeds in acid. It just burnt them off.
So we've stopped dealing with that particular supplier a long time ago, they're still there. You know, people are just trying to grab the market without any real thought to what it is they were producing. And the consequences it would have. So, I rapidly moved away from that supplier that they acknowledged they made a massive mistake, and they fixed it now. But I won't go back to them. But that's just one example of the difficult journey that we've been up with it.

Kate:
Interesting. Okay. Thank you.

Phil:
So, Allen building loyal returning customers is obviously crucial for the business. And you run the Diamond Club loyalty scheme? It's important for Blue Diamond. Do the insights you get from that scheme directly shape your strategy?

Alan:
Yes. Yes it does. It's been rather rudimentary. Up until now. We have moved our loyalty system to a different, provider, which gives us a greater ability. We kind of know that 60, two-thirds of our customers are AB1 and the remaining third are C1 up from an economic point of view. But what we don't fully understand, although we know how many millions we do in plants and how many millions we do in gardening and fashion and home.
We don't yet understand who that person is in terms of their priority when they come into store. So, the first thing I've said to, Danielle, who's my, customer loyalty, lady, is that we need to start with how many people come into the garden centre and the biggest money that they spend on is fashion. How many come in its home, how many come in and it's gardening… And then you can start to profile and then you can understand what age are they who are buying it. You know home is their priority or clothing is their priority. And then beyond that what are the other things. So after if it's fashion what's next? What else do they buy. If it's plants, what do they buy.
What are they not buying. Why are they not buying it. Look at their age. Look at their socio-economic group. So, once we build that profile up and we understand our customer more, we can start to change their behaviour. And that behaviour will be engagement hopefully into other categories in the store that they may not be paying much attention to. And your aim with customer loyalty, beyond changing their spending pattern to increase the basket spend in store is to increase the regularity of their visit, if possible. So, it's going to be a big part of what we do going into 2026.

Phil:
Fantastic. Okay. That's really that's really interesting. So, if we're going to start winding things up a little bit here, Alan, but if you could give one piece of advice to another garden centre owner listening right now, what would it be?

Alan:
Yeah, it's a good, that’s a good question. I think it's focus, you know, just understanding your customer and what they want, measuring their feedback and understanding and building your relationship with them. And I guess, you can't run a successful business without harvesting the data that an EPOS system provides, you know, for you to understand where your profitability and maximise your profitability in a business.
And I think as much as you can kind of benchmarking against other businesses, you know, what are their staff costs, what are their margins, you know, what are their overhead percentages, you know, all of these as a percentage of your turnover for your band and turnover, identifying opportunity and efficiency, which you won’t be aware of. And but knowing that, gosh, they've got this margin on their staff costs at X and their overheads are Y. And you know, the customers are happy and it's a good offer. But yet that they're able to deliver within these, parameters. You kind of don't know it's there until someone shows you it's there. So, try as much as you can to benchmark your own performance against those of others. Because it gives you a compass bearing on where, profitability lies as you focus on your customer.

Phil:
Yeah, that's good advice.

Kate:
Well, we'll finally, Alan, looking into your crystal ball of the future. Well, what do you see as the biggest threat? And the biggest opportunity facing the garden centre industry to come?

Alan:
I don't see any threats. You know, threats to the industry is, some of the owners have come in with, some of the groups and, kind of damage the experience in the eyes of the customer. You know Wyevale was a good example of that, because that doesn't help anybody.
But, you know, when they do, it becomes my opportunity. So, so that's good. But you know, I don't see if I look ahead certainly ten years, I don't see the public falling out of love with garden centres. I think we're very much at the heart of them. Providing, going back to your earlier question that we maintain plants and gardening at the heart of what we do, and we work with the community, and we have relationships with the community, we're not just a retail business that you visit. I mean, we support a lot of local, charities and, you know, in the community, the biggest threat is the threat that all retail faces, the continual increases in cost pressures. The, absolutely left loony policy about to be unleashed on us, which is ridiculous, that employees within one day have the rights that they're you know, it's crazy. You're acting on the basis the all people are good people, and they won’t join a business and try and leverage a payout out of you, which we get its absolute lunacy. And it will damage employers’ ability to be flexible. It would damage their, desire to, you know, they'll be very, very careful about who they employ.
So, some people won't get the opportunity. If they think for a second, they're not going to be any good, because quite often, employees join, and they go on a journey with you, and you develop them. Well, any sense that you're going to develop anybody, you don't… you're not going to take a chance anymore. So, these employments are just a huge barrier, to, to businesses.
There's discussion by labour about rates now, could go up. Independents, garden centres, up until this April, we're only paying 40% of their rates bill. Which was an overhang of the pandemic, and I never understood why that relief was in place for so long when people didn't need it. But suddenly those independents who got to pay 70%, then 100, and who knows, then it will be even higher.
So, government is the biggest threat to business right now - and to garden centres. Essentially the biggest threat is what we're going through with this government's faced with trying to reduce the burden of debt that's been built up in every country in the last 20 years. And unfortunately, the way they're doing it is not the right way - because it limits growth.
Anyway, sorry about the preaching.

Kate:
No, no, we like a rant.

Phil:
On a slightly lighter note, am I right in thinking Alan at the Greenfingers Floral Ball you bid, and won your height in books?

Alan:
I did, and I'm sending all the books to children’s hospitals.

Kate:
Oh, brilliant.
Alan:
Yeah, we're going to be giving the books to the Children's Hospital, so there's a double benefit there.

Phil:
Fantastic.

Alan:
And I also bought Guy Topping’s barge trip for a week. I haven't been on a barge for forty years, and I've always wanted to go back. It's one of the most wonderful experiences, that sort of gentle…

Kate:
Slowing down.

Alan:
And so I'm looking forward to doing that at some point.

Phil:
Was that a clincher in the Barton Grange deal?

Alan:
No, no, no, the deal was done!

Phil:
All right. Well, Alan, listen, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been absolutely fascinating.

Kate:
Lots of food for thought.

Phil:
And some advice for other garden centre owners, I think in there.

Alan:
Thank you guys.