Phil:
We're delighted to welcome onto the underground today, Nikki Burton, the managing director and Dr Victoria Wright, the technical manager from Melcourt. Welcome both.

Nikki:
Good afternoon. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having us.

Kate:
No, thank you so much.

Phil:
Well, we've been looking forward to having you both on for quite a while now, onto The Underground. So, we’re really pleased that we were able to make it happen and get you onto the show. Thank you for joining. Perhaps the best way, for us to start is if both of you could just give us a little bit of background as to, who you are and what you're doing
there with Melcourt?

Nikki:
Yeah, sure. So, I'll. I'll kick things off. Obviously, I actually joined Melcourt, I'm still a newbie. Especially to the horticultural sector. So I joined Melcourt in October 2023. So, I've been in business now, what, 20 months, just over? Joined as operations director. My background primarily is in operations, heading up... I was heading up a company in Bristol, a roofing company.
So, very big on, you know, running the operations, people management and, you know, processes and driving businesses forward. So hence my journey into Melcourt as operations director. And, the plan was always Andy Chalmers, who is now our chairman. The plan was for him to, semi retire. So he’s down to one day a week for me to take over the business, which happened in January this year as managing director.
So, yeah, it's it's been a whirlwind journey so far.

Kate:
But just going to say brilliant.

Nikki:
And absolutely I mean from my perspective coming into this industry, fantastic. Absolutely lovely people. And, yeah, the people at Melcourt that I work with here, have done their very best with me taking care of me along the way. Now I'm just, you know, very grateful to be in this position, with, with such a fantastic company.

Kate:
Oh, that's great to hear. And, you know, nearly everyone we speak to, Nikki says it's the industry that keeps them in it. It's the people within the industry. It's the friendliness, you know, even direct competitors, you know, you can still have good chats with and they'll help you out

Nikki:
The banter, yeah definitely.

Kate:
Yeah. Yeah. So, it is it's a great industry and it's good to hear that somebody fairly new or though you're almost an old hand now feels that way too. So and Victoria, do you want to just tell us a bit more about your background and what you do at Melcourt?

Victoria:
So, I've been with Melcourt nearly four years. My background is, so I trained as a horticulturist, at the University of Reading. And then went on and studied more plant science, at Nottingham University, the University of Nottingham, at their lovely Sutton Bonnington campus up there. I was then very fortunate that I was able to return to horticulture, working as a technical manager down on South Coast, growing plants.
I then sort of moved to the other side of the desk and became a technical advisor for a number of years. And sort of after 20 years of doing the green part. The opportunity came up to work and to work with the brown part of the industry. And then when Catherine was looking, Catherine Dawson, my colleague, was looking to, reduce sort of what she was doing in the business, but equally wanted to keep the technical excellence that Melcourt is renowned for.
And very fortunately, she felt that I fitted the bill. So, I've been here four years.

Kate:
Well, thank you so much. So Melcourt has long been a leader in peat free growing media. So, can you give us a bit of the backstory, really? And, has the business always been peat free?

Nikki:
Yes, absolutely. It's in Melcourt’s DNA. We've always been peat free. We started off. Obviously, the business was founded in 1983 by a gentleman called John Latter, who was a forester. And, he was specialising within Melcourt at the time as a mulch producer. And the main market back in ‘83 for Melcourt was the landscape amenity sector supplying local authorities.
I think local authorities back then soon realised that bark mulch was cost effective in beds and borders rather than, you know, hire an additional labourer to do the, hoeing and all the weeding. So, as we all know, mulch is a very good weed suppressant. So initially, you know, Melcourt was founded as a, you know, mulch processor. Effective mulch has minimal fines content.
So, a big part of, supplying bark was being able to screen it. So in the screening process of bark, we would create quite a large volume of bark fines.

Kate:
Sorry, Nicky, can I interrupt you? We've talked a lot about peat free. And fines has come up quite a lot. Would you just explain to listeners who you aren't quite aware of exactly what we mean by bark fines?

Victoria:
Yeah, of course it's it is simply part of the process of cleaning up a mulch product. Yeah. It's nought to ten ml material. That will drop out of a mulch when you're screening it to a particular particle size.

Phil:
So it's literally the fine particles or fine bits?

Nikki:
It is the final part of the screening process. So back then obviously bark fines the final part, we were selling as a soil improver. And other markets were selling it to be used in the production of a peat growing media. So moving into the early 90s, Melcourt was listening in. Do you know the peat debate was growing?
So, John Latter back then decided to hire a lady called Catherine Dawson. Who is very well known within the industry.

Kate:
People might have heard of her!

Nikki:
Catherine was tasked with creating a growing media from bark fines and other products. So, a lot of technical R&D was then being created within Melcourt to release our professional grade growing media. So, the first product was released in 2001, which is our Sylva Mix product, which is our professional range. Now, the name Sylva, I think we get asked this quite a lot, so I thought we’d clear this question up too. Sylva, which is spelled S-Y-L-V-A, is obviously the Latin meaning of the forest. So very in keeping in connection with the product. So, when you when you hear our product names always begin with Sylva, that's why.
So yeah, 2001 we launched our Sylva mixed range into the professional grower’s market. And it was very successful, and it was that much liked and, and used by professional growers that the, the growers that had nurseries and retailers connected. They had a lot of their customers asking for Melcourt product, which then pushed us forward into selling a retail product, which is the range that was released in 2014, which is Sylva Grow. Fast forward ten years to now, we are up to 13 products in our Sylva Grow range.
Selling it into the professional industry, initially gave us all of the technical expertise, the product knowledge, you know, the quality of ingredients and understanding what growers needed to be successful with peat free, brought us into this retail side of the business where we knew we had a successful product. We weren't willing to compromise on the ingredients that were in a bag, be it professional or retail, which has held us to the premium standard that we have today.
So, yeah, I think Melcourt as a business, as a heritage business. Now for Growing Media, we've been endorsed by the RHS since 2016. Had our first, Which Best Buy in 2015 and have been warrant holders since 2016. Royal Warrant holders. So, yeah, a fantastic business to be at.

Kate:
Yeah, that's a good a good backstory. So, Victoria, if I can go to you. So, the company is in a rare position where your products are technically respected and also, you know, well known to consumers who are already engaged within peat free. What have you found to be the most effective way in helping gardeners understand what to expect from their bag of peat free compost?

Victoria:
We speak to a lot of gardeners. We speak to a lot of the public. We speak to garden, you know, all levels of, gardening knowledge. And what I find is actually, people generally just want the information. We try to go out and give people the information so they can make an informed choice. I spend a lot of time talking about raw ingredients.
That's what we know. And actually, I have to say, I hate the term peat free!
It tells you what it isn't and not what it is.

Kate:
Yeah. Like that.

Victoria:
When I go out and talk to people, I will. I mean, we are a bark-based compost producer, a bark-based, growing media producer. That's what we know. Now, there will be other companies out there who are using or do using a different raw material. They will know their raw material intimately. The same way we do. So, when I go out and I speak to gardeners, I talk to them about the raw ingredients, how those raw ingredients behave.
So, they can go and fit that those products to the gardeners that they are, what they want to achieve. So very much for us, it's about giving people informed choice, and it's the technical aspect that that we can offer and the understanding of those raw ingredients. We forget… and we say this all the time. We forget what we know.
And actually, by going out and talking to people, talking to gardeners, group, going into garden centres, they actually will come up with questions. And I think, oh yeah, we need to speak to people. We know that we know we know all this information, but actually going out and talking to people means that we can give people the information and then they can take that away and they can apply it to their garden, their nursery.
We're in a I mean, we have to say, you know, we're in a position, where we've never had peat, we never had to make that transition.

Nikki:
We have the confidence in our materials, you know, and like anything, if every gardener wants consistency, don't they? They want to know that what they're buying. And, you know, I know this leads on to a bigger conversation, but it but it does simply drill down to consistency and reliance isn't it.

Phil:
So we've had a few guests, express concerns about bad first experiences as consumers, putting people off, peat free altogether. What's your view on how the category can protect its reputation as it grows?

Victoria:
I think the industry need to understand what is the issue people are having. They need to be. We need to be asking as manufacturers, why? Why are you having issues and then we need to react.
I saw the WRAP trials that were done in 2005. I think in terms of the professional that growing the professional nursery, sector, that did put a lot of people off, because the product wasn't suitable in some cases. When those WRAP trials were done.
Now what I can say is time has passed. 20 years has passed since those trials. So, if people are comparing their experience to what happened 20 years ago, I think, you know, we've… the majority of the industry has moved on from those first experiences.

Nikki:
And it's not, you know, when it comes down to a bag of compost, it's not one size fits all.
You know, I think when it when it comes to consumer judgement, when they come into a centre, they have to understand that and be educated. You know, those boards that put up in centres need to be clear. People need to understand what they're purchasing and what the purpose is for. So, I think there's more that we can do. But again, like Victoria says, it's down to understanding what those bad experiences are. You know, if it's down to the material, if it's down to performance, then, you know, the response has to be the manufacturer. And it is a shame because not all of us are in this position, like we said, you know, experience tells us and our technical knowledge tells us everything we need to know about our ingredients and the performance.

Kate:
So just building on from that if I can. So how can the industry as well as yourselves manage customer expectations when you know, it's so varied, their experience especially you know, there are some brands out there that we know aren't as good as they should be. And there is there are no regulations out there, you know, on who can produce, a peat free growing media. Sorry, I'm using that word again. But, you know, how do you manage expectations, you know, with that, with the different brands and sometimes even batches, you know, I know weather can play a real, real problem with, with different with some of the raw material.

Victoria:
I think that's really a question for the wider industry. We know what we know. And it's those conversations are being had all the time within the growing media industry. We are a small industry. We do talk to each other all the time, and we're, you know, on some levels, we can be collaborative. And particularly, I mean, one of the things that was launched this year was a peat free communications leaflet, that was launched by DEFRA in February, and that came about from the conversations that we were all having, but it was more formalised and it was 21 organisations came together, and agreed that there needed to be stronger communication. So, there are collaborative projects happening…

Nikki
But also, you know, going back to the quality and consistency, there needs to be a standard.

Kate:
Yeah, definitely.

Phil:
And so who would be responsible for, setting that standard in your view?

Victoria:
So those conversations are happening currently, within the growing media industry. And I think you'll start to see some progress on that. Now, we already have the Responsible Sourcing Scheme, which is an independently audited scheme - consumer facing. So, it's very much for the end user, where ingredients are given a score as to how responsibly sourced they are.
That does include an in-performance trial as well. So there is the Responsible Sourcing Scheme that is already in place. But certainly, you know, there is evolution of we you know, I think as an industry, we will be working towards a standard to give consumer confidence.

Kate:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We've had Steve Harper talking to us about the Responsible Sourcing Scheme. So yeah, it is a really good scheme. Let's hope it just keeps going on there. Every company kind of jumps on board with that as well.

Phil:
So are there any myths about I was going to say peat free, but will we say? Composite growing media products…

Nikki:
Well, you know, one of the biggest myths is, you know, not all peat free composted the same. The you know, the reality is, like we've been saying, it's about the ingredients, it's the processing it's the formulation. It does vary. So you know, just like with peat-based products. But again, you know, I hate that term. They're all the same. It's just not.
The biggest myth I think we all know is peat free doesn't work as well. Everyone hears that one, you know, like we say, you know, high quality peat free can match or exceed peat based compost. We know from doing our own R&D, our own trials that it can perform and outperform. You know, we have confidence in what we do. And, you know, for the years that we've been do it now, between the professional and the retail just shows you that it is successful and it can be done.

Phil:
Victoria, you mentioned there, earlier about this, leaflet that was produced earlier this year by Defra, in conjunction with a group – was it about 22 did you say, different businesses? Have you had to provide more education or support to retail staff in recent years?

Victoria:
We haven't. We offer it certainly. Because lots people want the information. And as I say, you know, we have groups here. We do we do speak to, retail staff. And we do training sessions with them. They just want the information. They just they just want to have that sort of centralised place that they can get the information. So, it is something that we offer.

Kate:
I was just going to say you got the RHS peat free hub now, which I think is really useful, isn't it?

Victoria:
You know, I think the RHS has been very good at going out to everybody and actually getting everybody's views. Like I say, we can tell you about bark-based growing media. But if you want to talk about coir or wool or wood fibre, you know, you go to the people who know. And then you're getting the correct information and the RHS has been able to deliver that in a user-friendly way.

Nikki:
Yeah. They've done a great job to be fair. And you know, the other side of it, especially for consumers from our perspective, is that social media, you know, the influencers that we rely on and support, you know, we've been very fortunate to be included and be an official supplier to gardening with Alan Titchmarsh this year, which is, you know, some great advice for gardening.

Kate:
That's a good one. Yeah.

Nikki:
Yeah, you know, and it is a very important part. You know, social media now has just taken over the world. As we all know, most people are watching YouTube now. No more telly, it’s just out of the window. So for us, there's a huge emphasis on growing that social media and our messaging in that way, especially the educational pieces.

Kate:
Definitely good to hear.

Phil:
It sounds like there's quite it's quite a minefield day for consumer with you. I mean, you're saying about your experts in bark-based growing media and I appreciate you know, that's what you know. And then there are other companies who may be experts in coir or other companies who may be in wool or, wood fibre…

Kate:
Digestate?

Digestate, yeah. So, from a consumer's point of view, they get to the garden centre yard faced with bags of compost. They see it all as compost, you know, and somewhere along the way, there's got to be some sort of, education for that, for that consumer to understand. There's a real difference between product A and product B, would you say?

Victoria:
Absolutely. And that's why I don't like talking about peat free!
And I think and I think it is, I think it's would be really useful if we, we change the wording, you know, rather than it's just, you know, peat free, you know, we start talking about actually what the ingredient is in it, it helps.

Nikki:
It's such an important part of walking into that… you know, the retail experience.
You know, we've had a huge, overhaul on our own point of sale that we supply out to the retail, industry. Because we understand that the messaging has to be correct and understood, you know, and it has to be short and punchy because, you know, if there's anything like me, I've got an attention span of a gnat, when I go shopping.
So when you're looking at something, it needs to be quick, punchy and understanding. You know, we've done our own in-house research and, you know, sitting in a compost section and waiting for customers to come along to say what you looking for and what dictates how you buy. And some of the, you know, their answers are fascinating.
Because most of the time, they just really don't know. They're sat with a really expensive plant, but they're going to go and put it into a cheaper, growing media. Not to say that it doesn't work as well, but they don't really understand.

Kate:
No. Absolutely. That's interesting you say that, I do quite a lot of garden talks around the area and talk about peat free compost: that's one of my things. You'll spend £30 on a David Austin Rose and yet you'll go for a BOG OFF, of you know, a bit of sawdust, in a bag, and it just it's getting that, do your research.

Nikki:
We use a lot of analogies here because we find this really fun, we at least get a couple like we can. When you, when you look at that exact analogy with a David Austin wrote, you know, you wouldn't put champagne in a paper cup - unless you're at a festival.

Kate:
Well I might! I know what you mean.

Nikki:
So yeah, I just, you know, there's a lot to be said for that messaging I think.

Kate:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. So, just going back to the kind of whole peat free… I hate saying this now. You’re absolutely right. No, no, it's so important, I think because we all thought the ban would be, you know, here by now and that we wouldn't have to use that word “peat free” it would be growing media, you know, that that's so important.
You know, or as people just think it's a bag of dirt, don't they? You know that it's not what it is. It's so much more complex. But anyway, we've talked a lot to, other manufacturers and guests about, the complexity of reformulation consistency. You know, and the sourcing and the seasonality. So last year, for example, was so, so wet.
I know a lot of companies whose product was stored outside. They had real issues with the screening side of it. You know, the lumps were getting through things. You know, foreign objects were getting through a lot more. How does Melcourt, as a business approach these challenges?

Victoria:
Again, we… in many ways, we're in a slightly fortunate position, we didn't have to do a reformulation. And because of our background in forestry, we understand our supply chain. Intimately. Again, we understand where it's coming from, where it's going to, and how to get the best from it. Again, this is another podcast for your I can talk about decomposing wood for a long time.

Phil:
Fantastic!

Victoria:
So, yeah, you know, the forestry industry is so efficient that, you know, we can use a whole tree from the tip down to the roots. You know, nothing goes to waste anymore. And all of that, all of that tree, you know, it's grown for it's timber, but everything else on it is a co-product.

Nikki:
I think, as well as interesting you say, I know the weather last year was terrible.
You know, I was in my infancy with Melcourt. So, you know, all of this was new. And, for us, we can be very reactive to these situations because it's not something that we haven't seen before in the 30 years that we've been working with this growing medium. So, you know, when it comes to bad weather, all these downpours, but hey, we're in the UK, the weather's just so unexpected now. And I and I think we've been able, because we're so fortunate with our supply chain and the materials that we have, that we can be reactive and, and manage those materials without having to compromise on those formulations. Because at the end of the day, it is down to people like Victoria to manage that process. You know, Victoria will be done in the yard, walking over piles, assessing that material to ensure that every batch remains consistent.

Victoria:
And I think every part of the horticulture industry is touched by the weather good growers will be staring out the window or standing in the greenhouse, you know, looking up, seeing, seeing what's coming. You know, we are we're very good at that in the UK because we've got this rather temperamental climate.

Nikki:
looking up at the moment, praying for rain.

Victoria:
Right? Yeah. Mostly praying for rain

Kate:
Well, especially lawn care companies. Lawn seed manufacturers and yeah.

Phil:
Do you actually manufacture on site - right where you are - or do you have other manufacturing plants?

Victoria:
No. our finishing site is here.

Nikki:
Yeah our finishing site is here. We have processing sites, three across the UK that we utilise, but predominantly all of our manufacturing is here.

Phil:
Right. So, all the ingredients then get shipped down to where you are.

Nikki:
This is the finishing site, where everything gets blended and bagged.

Phil:
Right. And so I guess this is going to be a question for you, Victoria. We talked about the fact that, Melcourt is predominantly a bark-based, growing media. But I'm, I'm interested in some of the lesser-known ingredients. So, are there any ingredients or innovations that you think are underused or misunderstood in this space?

Victoria:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the again, one of the key things that Catherine did when she began our growing media journey. Was to look at underutilised ingredients. Now we have a very strict set of criteria, for new ingredients. So, you know, we do because of who we are, we do get sent bags of materials and ingredients.
You know, please, can you have a look at this? Do you think it has any use within the industry? And because of that, we do have a set of quite strict criteria that the ingredients must meet for them to sort of progress any further. So, the interesting thing at the moment is because of the interest in peat alternatives, there is a lot of material coming, different types of material coming online that could be used. But like I say, they need to go through for us. They would need to go through that, characterisation - we would call it - because we wouldn't use anything that we didn't truly understand.

Phil:
I love this idea that you just get sent random bags of things for you to go: what do you think to this?

Kate:
I dread to think, what you get sent!

Phil:
What are some of the most unusual things, or what's the most unusual thing that you've been sent?

Victoria:
I think the one… the favourite one, that we talk about, when I sort of do my talks is, composted bank notes.

Phil:
*Gasp*

Kae:
Oh, my goodness.

Victoria:
Yeah...

Phil:
Oh, my word. I love this!

Victoria:
It's a great story.
So, we're approached by the Bank of England when there were removing paper notes from circulation. With, you know, they were chopping them up because they were not in use anymore and they sort of came to us and said, you know, is there anything you can do with these? And we thought, oh, this is too good a story. Can you imagine: growing media out of money?
So, we did some trials. We applied our criteria. We looked, we characterised the material, in terms of composting it down. And it would have been wonderful if it wasn't for the little metal strips… because when they chopped up the material that all got chopped up. And again, some of those notes were quite old. There were some of those inks, you know, heavy metals in inks… there were too many variables. But yeah, that's probably the most, innovative use.

Kate:
Oh, that's such a shame.

Phil:
And perfect for growing a money tree.

Victoria:
Absolutely.

Phil:
You were saying that with regards to standardisation and things, you will need to sit around a table and agree on things when it's that thing. Are there things that you knew within Melcourt sort of discuss - like for example, adding NPK values on the outside of the bag of compost or, or something similar.

Nikki:
We had this discussion yesterday, didn't we?

Victoria:
Yeah. We're constantly, horizon scanning. Yeah. Again, that's what we're known for. We're known for the innovation.

Nikki:
And dare I say, that I think something that really needs to be recognised, is the actual shelf life of a peat free and, we are still, as far as I'm aware, the only manufacturer that puts a date on the bag, a made on Date.

Kate:
Right OK.

Victoria:
Peat Free’s are generally more microbially active, which is great because actually we don't want sterile environments that, you know, that's really bad for, pathogens to get in. If you’ve got a sort of vacuum, so you do want that microbially active media, but that can come with issues if you don't get your storage right. So again, we always talk about when we're talking to retailers, stockists or the end user, we say, you know, cool and dry, store your compost cool and dry. And then it will last. You know, it will behave how you expect.

Kate:
Yeah. I'm so glad you've brought this up because so few people do talk about that. And you know, and that's one of the benefits of in a peat free compost is this microbial activity. And it's much more alive. So in lots of ways it is really, really good for your plants. So, storage and using it preferably within that season.

Phil:
So, what are you most optimistic about when it comes to the future of growing media?

Victoria:
I think we need to recognise how far we've come. Actually, as an industry, we have missed some deadlines. In terms of voluntary bans and the etc. but we've made huge strides, and actually we should be really proud of that.

Nikki:
Yeah. And I think that, you know, the quality of the material that is available out there, you know, we should be proud of, of how far we have come. I agree with what Victoria saying, because, you know, it's I don't want to speak for the rest of the industry, but, you know, for a company that's now been doing this for 30 years plus we have the confidence in the quality of those materials. And that hasn't come overnight. You know, we've been able to research, develop all of these materials.
And we're so proud of that. And I think the optimism, you know, to be optimistic for the future, it is for the ban to come into place for those wheels to keep churning and turning because it sometimes feels like we take a step back. You know, I can say reatil centres this year that I'm seeing Peat-Reduced, you know, it’s not a great message when we're trying to push forward with the peat free bill.

Kate:
Potentially, would you say that ban needs to be now or am I just putting words into your mouth?

Victoria:
I think the lack of legislation is stalling the industry, and if I did have a magic wand, actually, I think for me it would be to have more positive press coverage of peat materials. A bad story sells.

Kate:
Of course it does.

Victoria:
And actually, there are so much good news out there, with ourselves and the wider industry. Yeah, that would be my magic wand.

Phil:
It's like a bad review on TripAdvisor, isn't it? You know, you have, one bad review. And, and that spreads like wildfire. You have ten good reviews, and nobody bats an eyelid. So, you need to keep pushing that. You and the good stories.

Kate:
Yeah, definitely. Well, I hopefully that's something we do on this podcast episode, because we’re both very peat free activists, so hopefully we try and be as positive as well as giving out as much information and education as possible.

Nikki:
You know, the big magic wand would be the education piece. You know, being able to get that across the whole of the industry as one magic would be amazing. But in terms of the peat free legislation, it would be great to have a time frame, to be able to align professional growers to plan for this date, because at the moment it's just the unknown.
And I think once those wheels are in motion and we know what we're working towards, we can then begin as a manufacturer to start to offer more of that support to people that are looking to transition. You know, we have that skill set. We love to share it with more people.

Kate:
Definitely. So I'm just going to end, our interview now on just, a nice question hopefully. So, to both of you, is that a plant or a flower that, no matter how you feeling. Will, always put a smile on your face.

Victoria:
I love all plants, that's why I'm in this industry. And so that's a really hard one. I probably have to say the plant that makes me the happiest is Viola. Because they've got happy little faces.

Kate:
They do. Yes.

Victoria:
And you’ve just got a host of happy little faces looking at you – Viola.

Phil:
What a beautiful picture.

Kate:
And no one’s chosen Viola before, so, lovely. And how about you Nikki?

Nikki:
So I'm a traditionalist, and I just love a traditional rose. One, because I'm really good at managing and maintaining them.

Kate:
OK, that helps.

Nikki:
But also, it is one of my favourite perfume scents, and it always puts me in a good mood. So, Yeah, a traditional rose for me.

Kate:
Lovely choices.

Phil:
Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing the Melcourt story and giving us the benefit of your, expertise on the subject of peat free growing and, bark-based growing media, it's been, it's been really fascinating and really appreciate your time. Thank you.

Kate:
Thank you, thank you so much.

Nikki:
Thanks Phil & Kate.