So welcome back to another episode of The Underground. On this week's episode, we've got Will Scott, who's the team leader at Heart of Eden, part of AHS limited. Welcome, Will.

Thank you Phil.

Hi Will.

So. Well, before we get into all the stuff to do with Heart of Eden, maybe you could just give us a little bit of background about yourself.

Well, I was scientifically trained originally, and then I spent a bit of time also getting some military training. But, the last five years I've been working in the horticultural industry, as part of the company AHS limited and now Heart of Eden. Originally with a business sales focus, but now particularly garden centres and consumers there.

Right. Okay. I really, really like the name Heart of Eden. I think it's great. And it's to do with where the products are produced in the Eden Valley, isn't it? Could you just tell me a little bit about how you got involved with that business and also what your role as the team leader involved?

Sure. Well, I was originally working with AHS, in a different role, and was asked to take on this one as, my experience and knowledge seemed to be appropriate for the particular duties involved. Now, what I do currently is I coordinate all our contacts with individual businesses and buying groups, engage with them, on a day to day basis, checking what they need, pushing our product to new customers who haven't experienced us yet. And then just overseeing all our materials in that area. And I also am responsible for training all of our staff members at AHS and Heart of Eden specifically, with the brand products and the related horticulture that goes on there.

Okay. And is that where your scientific background comes in handy at all?

I mean, I had a very vague, biological background, mostly chemistry and applied science there, but yes. It's, it's been of some value.

And I suppose your military background helps with staff.

Well, just general counsel when you have some particularly difficult individuals.

And so tell us a bit about the products that are made at Heart of Eden.

So the flagship product, the one that we're most proud of, is our peat-free multipurpose, originally put together specifically to address a requirement within the industry, because of the peat ban. Now we have never used any peat in any of our products. So we were perfectly placed to develop a peat free product that would do the job. That has gone very well. And so in addition to that, we also have soil improvers, different types of bark, including a play bark, and also a fine composted bark which dresses well on top of borders and beds, and then also an enriched topsoil. We have a farmyard manure, which is a good type of soil improver, of course. We're currently developing an ericaceous compost, which is quite tricky with peat free. There's only about one good peat-free on the market at the moment in the ericaceous area. We’re working on that, and we’ve also got a growbag lined up for next year.

Okay. Interesting. So you mentioned just briefly bark products, which at the AHS has been doing for quite a long time. Is that right? I've just got a bit of a cheeky question. There seems to be lots of different barks categories. Are they actually different or is it just all about kind of segmentation to get on the shelves and garden centres?

Well, we do have three different product sizes right. So we have a 60 and 80 litre bag and a 100 litre bale. Now the 100 litre bales are very popular, but they're also very heavy. But then separate to that we have our fine composted bark, which is a much finer material and has already been allowed to sit and mature over 8 to 10 weeks. So it's a different product really. It's good for single season dressing of beds, and it's also good for putting organic matter into the soil. And then the other type of bark that we do sell, we sell a play area hard wood chip tested for impact absorption. They’re different, but they all sound the same.

So you're talking there about, bark chippings and that sort of thing. So, how sustainable are these forestry products that you're using? And as more and more companies are moving towards peat free and producing their own peat free, composts and products, is there going to be like a shortage of those key ingredients?

We are very happy that, all of our material is sourced through FSC approved sites. Our supply is already sustainable as far as we can make it. Now, there are pinch points in the year when some providers find themselves struggling to get enough bark to fulfil the need. But our parent company, A.W. Jenkinson, is very good to make sure that we don't ever have that problem with supply. Now, you're right that as time goes on, people will be looking increasingly towards alternative sources, but we are determined that our sources will only ever be sustainable. So we'll only ever take what we can replace and maintain that supply. In addition to that, we also use, in our peat free compost particularly, we use materials other companies might regard as, not required. So things that they might like to discard, which I can tell you about. And so for the foreseeable future, our products are very, very much sustainable.

Okay. So, let's let's move on with that then. So can you tell us a bit about what goes into your peat free compost?

We have what we call a virgin coir. So that's come straight off the coconut plant. It's been, broken down, divided into fine particles. We also then combine that with a waste product from the soft fruit industry which we describe as recycled coir. So fruit industry uses the coir. And they can, I think, use it for 2 or 3 passes of whatever they're using it for before it comes what they regard as a waste product. We then take that, divide it down fine and blend that into our mix. Third is our fine composted bark, a product of processing our different bark sizes, all the tiniest parts fall through to the bottom of our screens. And we then, as I say, put that to one side. We let it mature for 8 to 10 weeks, depending. We lined it up in windrows and get it turned and so on, so that by the time we put that into our product, it's already starting to decompose, because any wood that goes into a compost, if you try and put it into an area underneath the ground, natural wood can persist for a couple of years while our stuff's already started to compost. Final ingredient which we have settled upon is a fuel crop digestate, where they've taken fuel crops and then harvested them. They extract the bio gas from them and the liquid material that they can out of that, and the solid vegetable matters left behind is still very rich in macronutrients. We are able to take that as what is regarded otherwise as a waste product, which is part of our compost.

And is that sourced locally, the Digestate?

Yes. As far as I know, all the products except that virgin coir, which is mainly sourced in from inland sites in India. Apart from that, all of our stuff is sourced locally, as close as possible to where it's produced in the Eden Valley. Now, of course, the khoya that we have to get from India, that's not exactly the most sustainable option, but it's a multimillion dollar industry for that country. And so they are looking to export it. And we find it’s something which we need in our blend. But it's something we can use very effectively.

Yeah. It's an interesting thing you were saying about the by-product from the fruit industry as well for the coir, you know, so it’s already had a life and you're giving it a second life, as it were. So that's really interesting.

So although you've been working for AHS for quite a while, Heart of Eden's kind of started with the whole peat debate. Is that kind of why Heart of Eden started? Or did Heart of Eden start, and then the whole peat free debate came about? And did you know much about this whole kind of peat free debate before you got involved with Heart of Eden?

Well, I knew a little bit about peat, my own knowledge, beneficial effects of peat bogs. But in fairness, I don't think until I started working more solidly in the industry, I don't think I had realised exactly how damaging it can be that people choose to rip the stuff up and get rid of it. I've had a renewed level of knowledge and understanding that, but the reason we started Heart of Eden, largely stems from the lockdown period. Other companies were struggling to provide to all of their customers materials that they needed, and we were approached to source a peat free material specifically for a client, which we did. We were able to do in relatively short order. And that's where the Heart of Eden brand had its origin, really, and we've just gone with it from there.

Okay, so were you a commercial type company before? And then the Heart of Eden is much more of a consumer brand?

Well, we'd always had our AHS labelled materials available in certain lines of packaged product, but we took the decision to take that step because it was a garden centre chain who approached us. And we already work with a number of different chains as A.W. Jenkinson, obviously chains will have their own brand working through us and so on. So I think the decision was taken there at a much higher level than mine, to say let's go with this and we can make that our brand for the end consumer and offer it to both independent centres and garden centre chains.

Can I just say, I really do like the branding on the Heart of Eden products? I think it's a lovely, lovely look and a lovely kind of. Yeah, really. It seems very local. Very friendly. Yeah, I like it.

Yes, it did take a while to, iron out the kinks on that one, but I think we were pleased with the product. We like the way it looks. Also, obviously, I would have to say we're impressed with the actual product itself and how it performs, which is very positive.

That helps, that always helps. So Will, like me, you recently did a talk at Hampton Court Flower Show. Is that right? All about peat free. How did you find the visitors responded to you?

Well, the attendance was not too bad. And I was very delighted that people who were there didn't fall asleep whilst I was talking. Well, the thing is that people who are interested and want to attend that sort of talk, the issues about peat and how to work with peat free are quite challenging. Yes. Most people were very receptive to what we had to say. I'm pleased to hear that we were taking steps that would allow them to work more successfully. So yes, it was very much a positive experience, slightly nerve wracking because I hadn't spoken anywhere quite as prestigious. But, once you get started, the nerves just-

Because people just want to know, don't they? They just want help and advice. So they're not there to trip you up. They just want to get the best for their plants. That's what I found anyway. People just wanted me to give them tips and encourage them. So yeah, I think most people came in because it was pouring with rain. So I got the soggy I got the soggy visitors.

Yes, we had a bit of that too, on the way from the car park through. So that's the way it goes. But, yeah, it was a very positive event, I think. And we're fortunate because our talk was right next to the RHS peat free garden.

Same place as me. So there we go. Yeah.

Those fantastic trees from majestic that were, based on peat free material as well.

So you were telling us about the fact that Heart of Eden is owned by AHS limited. How involved are AHS in the running of Heart of Eden? I mean, are you a completely separate subsidiary, or are you sort of just a brand within AHS?

Well, we work, I guess you could say we work side by side because AHS is mainly these days it will deal primarily with bulk transfer of material. So that's compost, topsoil, aggregates and bark products across the country from A.W. Jenkinson and our other suppliers to various people who need it. And the Heart of Eden is specifically tasked with garden centres. So we have a separate remit, but we do work alongside one another. And of course, I'm very lucky to have the AHS depth and breadth of experience and logistics of haulage really is very helpful if I ever need it. That's where I learned that first part of my job. Quite pleased that since then I've been able to expand and develop on that. So Heart of Eden is its own creature. We can work alongside AHS with harmony. Which is good.

So you're very much, kind of the friendly face, as it were. So you would go to the garden centres, to the meetings, to the shows as Heart of Eden rather than as part of AHS.

I mean, AHS has a logo on our bags, a little sort of small logo, as you know the heart of Eden brand is the main message. We go to Glee, for example, would be this September. We’ll be there as Heart of Eden. We do go to our garden centre partners to discuss and find group meetings that we have as Heart of Eden.

Fantastic. So that's a fairly new entrance to the sector. How, have you found that you've been greeted by good garden centres and consumers and also the competition?

Let's see now, our material is quite different from pretty much anything else on the market. Garden centres are generally pleased to see our material there. Because it's different and it is generally performing very well as a peat free product. They like that, there is a certain amount of reticence because some garden centres would prefer to keep selling peat based material, until they don't have a choice anymore.

Do you find that it's a regional thing with the peat based thing, or is that sort of just a general feeling that you get across across the whole of the country?

Well, it's no, it's not so much regional. The customer base for many garden centres tends to be individuals who have a traditional view, which means peat has worked up until now. And the small amount that we're using, they would say, shouldn’t make any difference so they want to use peat. Where we come in, we're looking at a sort of re-education because we have a peat free alternative which performs as well as peat.

And is able therefore to step in and take that place. It does require a slightly different approach to things like watering regimes, but if anything those things tend to be positive. Therefore it's a question. So if you've got a more traditional view, you’re not going to like our product quite so much, but there is an increasingly large slice of our consumers who are interested in being peat free, and like the product for that reason. And we must be doing something right, because one of my contacts said that one of our competitors was regarded as apparently really not liking us very much.

Oh. You must be doing something right then. I often think it would be really good to take some consumers up to the peatlands that have been devastated, just to see what it's like, because I remember when I first went to see the peatlands that had been extracted from, I was blown away by just how vast it was, and that just there was nothing. There was no life. And then I live close to Dartmoor, which is a peatland, you know, and you go there and you see all this life. And I think if we can get that message across sometimes, you know, you think you dig up plants to grow plants in your garden. It just seems crazy. And hopefully people will start to see that more.

Well, and the statistic that I take home every day, which really has stuck with me is peat regrows something like a millimetre a year. So if you take a metre worth of peat out, that will take a thousand years to come back, if at all. We just can't be doing that. That's it's not sustainable.

Just got to change.

One of the things you've mentioned a couple of times is how well your multi-purpose compost performs. Obviously within peat free, efficacy is really important. And, we've noticed that, you know, in our discussions, we've gone into peat free quite a lot on this podcast. And we've noticed that, there is a feeling among consumers and within the industry that there are a number of businesses, who maybe are new entrants into the market, who have not produced a peat free compost that really performs. How important is it, that efficacy piece to you as Heart of Eden, and how have you gone about making sure that it performs really well?

Well, it was initially a point of importance for me that I wasn't going to move across from the part of the industry where I was working until I knew we had a product which performed and which we could sell successfully. So I've, if you like, been convinced by what I've seen and what we've done with the product. So I know that it's a good product. But as a backdrop against that, there are a number of products which were produced rather hastily by other individuals who'd already got peat products in the marketplace. You can't simply take the peat out and then chuck stuff in a bag. It doesn't work. And that has done quite a bit of damage because, as you say, if it's not efficient or if there's no efficacy there, it's going to be very difficult to sell people on it. So we did look at our material. We had an initial blend which performed very well, but we were concerned that one of the ingredients within that wasn't necessarily as consistent as we would like, and now we've shifted across to use the fuel crop digestate, we are much better able to control the limited amount of any contamination at all. No plastic, no grass, no metal. But also they don't, because it's an energy crop, they don't tend to use any sorts of pesticides or so on on it. So it's a much better product in that respect.

Right. So was that a green compost you were using before?

Previously we had looked at using a green compost. Although we do have a green compost site of our own, a production site which would give the product quality control that we want. But again, in terms of sustainability, it's got to be the digestate going forward. And there are other companies that also use digestate.

It is such a shame though, isn't it, because the green compost is such a great recycling story, but it's getting that education through to consumers of just what they mustn't be putting in their bins. Because some of the things I've had experience of, some of the things that have come out of green compost because of what people have put in their bins, and we're not just talking bits of plastic pots and labels. I mean, it's just incredible. So we really need to get in partnership with with the green collection schemes to just really educate people about what not to put in their bins.

Yes. And of course, the other issue is that if the composting isn't 100% successful, if it is, you've got the high temperature generated in those composting piles that sterilises things very nicely, but don't get to that or if there’s too much demand and things are being rolled over too quickly. Your product is not going to be adequate.

And I suppose in weather like we've had this summer as well, it's going to be a lot harder to sift through because everything's so wet and sticky.

That's definitely an issue. I think the weather patterns, and if you like the average weather, has got the biggest challenges for us at the moment, because in the garden sector, it's very difficult to get a consistent period of either spring or summer type weather, to anticipate what the consumer's going to need. And we have to be very, very swift to adjust, which is a major issue.

That's one of the few industries, isn't it? You're not selling washing machines or dishwashers. I mean, it really does depend on the weather. It's so crucial. A lot of people don't realise that.

Yeah, it's quite interesting that we're just talking about, the industry in general there. I know you've been working for AHS for a little while before you move over to Heart of Eden, but how have you found working within the garden sector, you know, compared to previous industries that you worked in?

That's a very interesting question to address because there are similarities with all industries. Obviously you have supply and demand, but I would think the only thing I've ever worked in, on a peripheral way this close to it is farming and agriculture, because the weather, and the political climates as well, can affect so adversely the industry. People will avoid investing in their stock if they're not sure what's going to happen, whether it be with a change of government or a change of legislation. So there's always a bit of a hiatus around those areas. And then in addition, we have a new government now who are talking about their green credentials and move further forward ahead with their peat ban, though it hasn't happened yet, but with the same voice they're then talking about rolling back on other green commitments they've made, and that makes people don't want to take a step forward. They want to hold back. That makes it quite difficult, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. So as a company you use social media. The allotment cook, Jayne Hickling is one I can think of. You collaborate with influencers. So do you feel that this is the way forward for the sector to go?

I think what we're looking for is the way to get a useful message to the largest possible number of people. And there's no greater access to people's ears, as it were, than in the current social media situation. It's something that's never been the case before in our history, I think. You can reach an awful lot of people very quickly and very easily. Podcasts like this, for example. But there is a an amount of footfall to be done. You need to be out there at the shows and at the garden centres, talking face to face with people, offering them the chance to try the product, feel it, see what they think of it. But social media, I think you can reach thousands of people in a very short time, and if even 1% of those people will take your message to heart and follow on, then you can make much bigger changes.

Absolutely. So, talking of communicating, what are the biggest challenges you face in communicating your business, both to garden centres and the end consumers? And how are you going about addressing these challenges if there are any?

For the for the consumer generally there is the established method, tradition. People like things to continue. They've done it this way before. They don't necessarily want to change what they're doing. They need a reason and a rationale for making that change. Because where you're secure, taking that step to somewhere new is always a bit of an uncertain time. That is a challenge to communicate effectively to those people that there are ways forward and they can be confident they work. That's a struggle. And it's something that we just need to press on with. And keep saying the same thing and demonstrating as well. So that's a major concern. For the garden centres, I think once they get through this period of uncertainty, whether this peat ban is going to happen, if it is going to happen, when it's going to take place, how it's going to take effect. Once we know the way forward there, looking five, ten years into the future, I think garden centres will feel they're much better equipped to make those decisions. And so there it's a question of just, a gentle education, making sure the information is there, literature is there, test results are there to prove to the garden centres that they can sell this stuff with confidence. But for the actual individual consumer? There is a bit more work to be done.

Yeah. It's quite a bit of that education piece that just needs to be reiterated. And you know, and it's a continual thing isn't it, that that needs to happen.

Yes certainly.

So thinking more broadly, not just about peat free and compost, but more broadly about the sector. What do you feel are the biggest challenges that are facing the sector?

Two things really stick in my mind. The first is that there is definitely a change in the way the weather is working, and that is something which, whatever your opinion about why it's happening can't be denied. There's an increased frequency of storms, long periods of really hot weather, incredible periods of very wet weather, winters generally do not seem to be as severe as they once were, and all of these things have a major effect on the plants that people are trying to grow, and what they will select to put in their garden, which we really need to address. And that's a period that's about re-education. Choose plants that are either drought tolerant or extreme wet tolerant. A major challenge is going forward, because people love to have gardens and keep them for a longer period of time, talking about a significant adjustment to our climate in the next 20 to 25 years where our climate in the UK shifts more to a sort of Mediterranean style, and then up in Scotland, they find that they're getting the weather, well the average weather, that we've already had for the last 50 to 100 years. The other thing is, as I've said before, it's about a change in government, which leads to changes in the construction industry, what's being built, how much stuff needs to be produced, that has a major act on, trees, tree growth, tree use, wood use. Then there's the knock on effect of peat legislation, for example, and other legislations which they may bring in, towards net zero. So those things have to be looked at, compensated for taking into account, I think, going forward.

So that's the doom and gloom. What about some of the opportunities? What are you excited about in the industry?

Well, in particular, I think the expansion of peat free options is something which I found to be a particular area of growth. So we've currently got a really good product which doesn't necessarily need topping up with things like John Innes mixes. Now, our material isn't great, for one thing. It's not really great for ericaceous, but our ericaceous plants, if we plant them in our existing peat free, they won't be as great as in a generic compost, but they will still grow. And with a bit of feed chucked in the top, they should be fine. So I think the really exciting thing is what we can do with what we've got, and the different ways that we can develop and expand our approach to to gardening and horticulture generally. I know there are nurseries that I talk to regularly who are very interested in exploring the peat free avenues. The lower reliance on slow release artificial fertilisers that they may have to put in. That's great. So anything that brings us more towards a natural rather than an artificial solution is a good thing.

Well, do you actually enjoy gardening yourself? Do you garden? Do you get chance?

I do have an allotment which I’ve neglected lately, but I'm currently working on there. I've used some of our soil improver to do a small no dig area. Another really interesting area of development. Education of everyone towards better soil health and how useful top soil is as both a carbon capture medium and as a living, growing resource. The development of no dig or limited intervention is something really exciting. Not many results yet, although I think my raspberries are coming up quite well at the minute.

They don't mind this weather. Do you have a plant that would always bring a smile to your face and why?

In honesty, if I had to choose one, which is very difficult, the one that I like most, I have to say is, digitalis, foxgloves.

And they've been amazing this year, haven't they?

Yeah. They're beautiful. They're fantastic for the insects that pollinate in them. They're superb at self seeding and just popping up where you don't expect them. You've got colour. Yeah. They're just fantastic plants I think.

Yeah. Lovely choice. Thank you. Well thanks so much for coming to talk to us Will, it's been really, really interesting. We've, you know, we have spoken to quite a few people like yourselves from different companies and, and your take has been quite an interesting one to listen to. Definitely different from some other people in a good way. Definitely, definitely. I now know a lot more about Heart of Eden as well. So that's good to know.

Well, that was really interesting conversation there with Will, I thought.

Absolutely. And it just kind of opens your eyes up to the new companies that are out there, but actually that, you know, do have experience of the industry. I thought he had some really, insightful things to say, especially about companies that have been trading with peat based for so long and then kind of just take things out and chuck a bit in. When we were talking to Sally Nex about the whole peat free, she was saying that some of the better compost, the peat free compost are coming from companies that have started completely from scratch. So, the proof will be in the pudding. So I think I'm going to have to get myself some bags of Heart of Eden and see how things grow. But yeah, he had some really good points to make, I think, about the industry as a whole. Obviously he was there to talk about Heart of Eden's products. And I thought he got the message across really, really well. But I really liked what he was saying about climate change and about how we have to change our gardening. Lots of interesting things.

Interesting times ahead. I think for the industry, you're going to have to take on board what's going on with the climate. And yeah, actually react to it in a different way.

Well, absolutely. Especially when you know, all the gardening programs and magazines have been telling us to do drought tolerant planting schemes. And if you've done that and then you've got this year, now everyone will be planting bog plants. So it's, you know, you've got to be adaptable and changeable. Oh yeah. It's a tricky but also really exciting time I think.

Watch this space. Thanks, Kate.

Thanks, Phil.