So welcome to another episode of The Underground. We're delighted this week to have the author, broadcaster and nature therapist Ellen Mary joining us today. So welcome, Ellen.

Thank you very much to both of you for having me here today. I'm looking forward to our chat.

Lovely, thank you. So I'm going to kick off, Ellen Mary. So the more I talk and listen to people within horticulture, I'm surprised at how often I discover that gardening wasn't their first career choice. So can you tell us a bit about how you became involved in the world of horticulture?

Sure. You know, it is common, isn't it? And the same thing. I hear the same thing over and over again. So I, have been loving plants ever since I was a child, basically. I used to garden with my parents in their kitchen garden, and my uncle used to have one of those old council houses with the long back gardens and low fence panels where the neighbours used to go and lean on the fences and chat with each other over a cup of tea. We don't do that anymore, do we? We put up fences and and hedges and trees so we can't see anybody. But I always remember that being a really lovely community feel, and he used to send me down the end of the garden, and my job would be to pick the caterpillars off the cabbages, nicely give them back to him in a jar, like a jam jar. And I was honestly, I was so satisfied with this, but I have no idea what happened to the caterpillars. So I don't like to think about what happened next. But, I enjoyed it nevertheless. And he had an old broken greenhouse that was full of tomatoes as well, which is like, you remember these lovely little memories. He was an organic gardener.

So we're talking back in the early 80s and he never used pesticides. He never signed up to that at all. So he taught me from a very early age the importance of nature. And then, you know, at school, I love plants, but I didn't really tell anyone, didn't really seem like it was a cool thing to do. Had a careers lesson, my teacher said to me, what do you want to do? I said, well, I don't know. There’s not many 15 year olds that know what they want to do is there? And I said, but I do love plants. And it was the first time I actually admitted that I love plants. And she looked at a book of careers, and she went all the way down her list of careers, and she said, well, you can be a teacher or nurse. And I was like okay, neither of those are going to suit me. So no, because of that, you know, when you don't really know what you want to do, I kind of done a few little odd jobs here and there. Nothing particularly exciting until I fell into, working in human resources. So I became a chartered human resources manager, and, I enjoyed it very much. You know, it was a good job of working with people. And I learned a lot about myself and business, so that was all good. But it was stressful as well sometimes, working in HR. And I would go to my garden in the evening or to my allotment in the evening, and the only way I can put how I felt was that it helped me to reset for the next day. So I would go and I didn't know what this was, I don't know, 20 years ago or so, and I was just thinking, why do I feel so good after I’ve been here? It was a long time before the media were talking about, you know, the benefits of gardening. We'd kind of lost all of that at that point. And that's kind of why is this making me feel so good? And then a few years later, I had an operation and all I wanted to do, I craved within my recovery period, just being outside in the garden, being around the herbs, fragrances, you know, just looking just like with all of the, you know, veg and, and crops that I'd grown. And then I just realized life's too short, really, to not be doing something that you're passionate about, you know, and whatever that might be, you should do it. I hope all of your listeners, of course, are into plants and that inspires someone to get into, you know, working in horticulture. So I left my job in HR. I became, a gardener. I trained with the RHS and it kind of all snowballed from there.

Well, that leads us nicely on, because in my introduction, you know, as I mentioned, you're an author, a broadcaster and a nature therapist that you seem to wear an awful lot of hats. Can you just talk us through some of these? And, do you have a favourite hat that you wear?

That's a great question. I wear many hats, as long as the hats have got plants on them. So as long as it's got something to do of plants and gardening, then I will generally say, yes, let's give that a go. So, you know, in the beginning, somebody local to me in Norfolk, where I live said, would you write for magazine, a column monthly? And I said, yeah, sure, I could do that, which I did. And then a local TV station picked it up and said, would you come on in and talk to us about plants? So I was like, yeah, sure. And from there they said, would you present all of our horticultural content? And I said, yeah, sure. And then from there, can you produce our horticultural content? Yeah, sure. So this is where it all came from. So, you know, this has been a lot of years of doing this, but I've been, you know, TV in the UK and the USA, and then, when you have a media presence, I was, contacted by a literary agent who said, would you write? And I said, yes. So two books later, I've had a gardening radio show for three years, which I don't do anymore because there is a limit to how much you can do. Only so many hours in a week. But, I think it was the first gardening radio show in the UK many years ago. Community gardening radio show, I should say. And yeah, I have a podcast, another podcast called The Plant Based Podcast, and I do talks at shows all about horticulture. But everything is linked to wellness because going back to when I said I was resetting at the end of my day or, after my operation, I just wanted the garden to make me feel better. I want that to always infiltrate everything I do within horticulture. So whether it's books or broadcasting or writing or talking, it's always got that kind of wellness linked to it. So when you say, what's my favourite one of all of those things? I think is being face to face really with people and, you know, we can do all of the wonderful media stuff online, but I don't think anything beats that 1 to 1 kind of communication with somebody. That's where the magic really happens.

Right. I wonder whether that comes back to your HR days as well. Just but you know, the people. You’re a people person.

Yeah, I love people and I love plants. So bringing people and plants together is my goal in life. And yeah, you know online is amazing for that. Social media is amazing for that. There's no question about any of those things. But you know, we mustn't forget that these are real people behind the screens. So actually being in person, you know, with someone I think is really key for me.

Wonderful. Thank you. So one of your hats that you wear is, am I right in thinking it's relatively new? Is your venture People-Plants-Wellbeing. Would you tell us a bit about that?

Yeah. So People-Plants-Wellbeing I actually started in 2020. So it was an idea during the pandemic and it was at the time an online studio where lots of people contributed their wellness stories, so that people could read them while we were in lockdown. And it went wild. Like the people on my website were absolutely incredible. And I thought, okay, there's so much more to this, you know, that we could do. So going back again to the HR thing, kind of bringing, you know, humans together with plants, we have to do that in person also, you know, so I kind of extended it into its own thing. People-Plants-Wellbeing is nature therapy. And I've trained in forest bathing as a forest bathing guide. I'm a Reiki master and a hypnotherapist over the past four years, and People-Plants-Wellbeing is now a nature therapy consultancy. We do work for companies, we do work for individuals. There's some spiritual healing in there because I do think that being out in the garden, around trees, there is a spiritual element to that, that we've completely lost. We keep saying about to reconnect, but we have to remember that we are it. And with that comes the spiritual side. So, People-Plants-Wellbeing is exactly what we've been talking about, really, up to this point is bringing people and plants together for good health and wellness.

Right. I noticed with Chelsea, there was a lot of talk about forest bathing. Obviously the show garden that won, you know, that was at the heart of that garden. Have you seen an uptake in the interest in that?

Definitely. And actually more so really over the past year in the UK, very, very recent, you know, forest therapy has been around for centuries, actually. But again, we've kind of lost our way as humans, haven't we, in the process of industrialization and and everything else. And I think we are starting to realize that actually the importance of our connection with nature in one way or the other, whether that's gardening and getting your hands in the soil or walking amongst the trees, all of those kind of things. But I think the first forest bathing show garden was actually the Kate Middleton one at Chelsea a few years ago. I can't remember what it was called now, but I remember seeing it splashed all over the newspapers and I remember thinking, wow. Like, finally. Yeah we're getting there, you know. And since then, I've definitely seen an uptake, but really, over the past year has been quite incredible. So I run, forest bathing walks local to me and also at the retreats that we run at People-Plants-Wellbeing. And the retreats are booked up a year in advance because people want to come. Yeah, and just bathe in the forest. So yes, there's been an uptake. Yes, I do think that those amazing show gardens help because it does raise the profile of something that's really important. And Ula Maria's show garden at Chelsea was absolutely wonderful. The fact that it won Best in Show and all that was absolutely marvellous. So that makes me very happy.

It's funny, isn't it? I suppose for me, in a way, it would be nice that we won't need to have these gardens. We won't need to have retreats for forest bathing because actually, it's something people just do, like we used to do. I mean, I spent a day in the woods, and I just lay down, looked up at the trees. There was moss, there was boulders, there was rivers. It was amazing. That would be so lovely that people like yourself don't need to run these retreats because we are getting back into connection. But meanwhile, it's great you do. But it is in a way, it's quite sad that we have to, you know, that we have to have gardens.

We've kind of lost ourselves, haven't we really, over the last however many decades or longer perhaps. And I think this is a way to help people kind of find themselves, go back to their roots, but still live in balance. We are in a modern world. I'm not saying we're all going to suddenly start laying amongst the trees all day, every day. You know, we have moved on, and we do live in in modern life. But it's about striking a balance. That's what what I really try to promote. You know, you can live in harmony with nature and in the modern world, but we do need to make changes.

So Kate and I both are fans of The Plant Based Podcast, which you do with Michael Perry as you mentioned. Can you just tell us how you and Michael first met and what inspired you both to start the podcast together?

Well, that's very kind of you to say, Phil. Thank you very much. Yes. Michael. Where do we start with Michael? Our friendship is a little bit like having an annoying younger brother. Not really, I love him to bits. We met many years ago. I used to run a gardening club in Norwich called No Fear Gardening. And some friends of mine said, we'll come up and do a talk with you at the garden event. And I said, great. And they said, we've got a friend who we think you're going to really get on with. And it was Michael. And he came up also to do a little talk. We'd not met before. And the first time I went over to him, he was on his phone the whole time. Type type type, and I'm talking to him. I'm thinking: You're so rude. Oh my Gosh. And, he’d done his talk and the talk was really good, but I didn't for a moment think we were going to be really good friends because I was just like, you’re on your phone the whole time we're having this conversation, which is a pet hate. This is a long time ago, maybe 8 or 9 years ago now, I think. And then afterwards, we did actually chat and I was like, okay, I need to relax on this because he seems like a really cool guy. And later we met, when he was still working for Thompson and Morgan at their Trials Gardens, which was at Jimmy's farm in Ipswich.

We had a wonderful day. It was amazing. You know, all the trial flowers everywhere. And Michael there in his absolute element showing me which was which. And and we just really hit it off. And I think it was, a year later, we’d done the first ever online live horticultural game show, which was really good fun. It was produced by City College students, their media students. It was such a good laugh. And we said, you know, how can we get more people to love plants, basically. And let's give it a go. Let's do a podcast. And at first, really it was a little selfish because we thought, great, we get to chat all of the time. We get to visit amazing places. We get to learn loads of stuff from the experts. You know, there's no point that you think it's going to go as big as it did at the time. It was, you know, years before the rise of social media. You know, this is before everything went bonkers, you know, on socials. So, yeah, that's how we met. That's how we started it. And we're still going however many years later.

Yeah, one of the things that I really love about doing the podcast is meeting great people, hearing their stories and discovering, you know, new things that I'm learning all the time, which is just fantastic. So and I'm sure you feel the same. So with all the amazing guests that you've interviewed on your podcast, what are some of the best things that you think you've learned? And is there somebody who you'd really like to interview?

This is a great question. I absolutely love the question. Is it someone who would like to interview? Because something popped up for me last week, and I'm going to tell you in a moment, because it absolutely, completely blew my mind. Yeah, the same as you when we do podcasts, we just get to speak to so many amazing people and experts and I walk away learning so much. It's the best job, isn't it? I mean, we spoke to Kate about peat, so Kate was an amazing guest.

The compost queen.

Shucks.

The compost queen teaching us all about peat. So that's great. Recently we spoke to Dario from the RHS about biosecurity, which I think was really interesting, how that's changed when it came to Brexit and climate change. You know, the introduction to pests into our environment and climate. So that was really, really interesting. Things that we don't think about when we go to the shop and just pick up a plant, you know. We had Doctor Neil whose surname I don't remember because I'm terrible, but Doctor Neil, he was completely amazing. He's from the Royal Botanic Garden in Edinburgh, and he talked about the secret world of moss. It was phenomenal. We were literally transfixed. The whole walk, just about the thousands and thousands of different types and how moss has relationship, you know, with other plants and trees. And it was just wildly incredible. And my favourite visit, in person pre-COVID was, Chris Packham. We went to his house. And for me, you know, when I'm back, as a child, like The Really Wild Show was on. So to go to his house and sit in his wildflower meadow and him talk to us about the birds and his bird feeders. And he took us to the shed, where there's a wasp nest. And he was talking all about how that, you know, how the process of them building that nest happens. And it was like, am I really doing this job? Like, I'm really here? This is incredible. So we've been very, very fortunate to interview some amazing people. But last week, David Beckham posted a video on TikTok of planting a David Austin rose. Okay.

Oh, I think I saw that. Yeah.

So I commented on it, saying well this is a good day. And he liked it. It was all my dreams come true. So I would like David Beckham to be a guest on a podcast.

Putting it out here now, I'm sure he listens to this one.

Go on David. Actually, we'll take you on either, you can come on to The Underground Podcast. Or come on to The Plant Based Podcast. But just come into some kind of horticultural world. Do a podcast.

Well, let's make a pact now, if he comes on the underground, we get you as a guest host.

That's amazing. That's what we'll do. Thank you.

You always come across as incredibly positive, full of energy. Have you always been like this? Is it something you think other people can learn?

Well, first of all, I'm not positive. Every day. There are days, definitely, where my husband will say she has not been positive. I would say 99.9% of the time. I am definitely positive. I genuinely just believe life's too short to not be. If we focus on the negatives, all of the time, and there's so much going on in the world right now, it's not particularly nice reading the news or the media and knowing what's happening out there. So you have to remain positive, because if we're not positive, we lose hope. And there's always hope. So for me, I just I don't know if it's about learning it or not, but it's definitely a shift in how we think. We're very much media led. If you read the news all day, you won't be positive because it's just awful. You know, it's just shifting, you know, a mindset. And something I do truly believe is I spent so much time in nature, and I think it is positive because you see hope everywhere, you know. So if we can connect and be outside more, then I truly believe that that helps the shift in your mindset. Yeah, I am generally positive, just probably not at six I am in the morning.

I think that's fair enough.

I second that. So I suppose leading on from this. Obviously you come off very passionate about how important connecting to nature is. At the same time, you are very visual on social media. So how do you stop the social media side taking over? And how can others who overuse social media find balance?

Michael.

I think he’s finding more balance now. Actually, I definitely see that a little bit more. Balance is key. We've mentioned it before. You know, it's one of the biggest things that I teach in what I do, you know, as a nature therapist, balance is everything. I'm quite organized. I'm quite structured. I might take ten photographs if I've been somewhere, and then I'll do that at the beginning of the visit. And then I put my phone away, and I really get into what I'm doing with no distractions. Same for if I'm on the allotment when I get there, I might take some photographs just in that moment. And then that's it. And I don't post them while I'm out there doing that. I'm immersed in what I'm doing.

But when I go home later, I will post them. I'm never doing it in that moment in time, not even stories. So if I've been to the allotment in the morning, I'll post them later in the day.

Yeah, that's quite disciplined to do that.

It's very good isn't it. Because I often find I get really frustrated because I think I need to be filming this, I need to be filming this. Oh my goodness. And then I lose sight of why I'm doing it and why I love it. Because I'm thinking, well, I've got to set that shot up and I just want to actually go and put my vegetables in and I want to put my child in and I'm not ready to film it. And then I just get really frustrated and then I don't do anything. But I think, yeah, that is that balance, isn't it? Just putting that phone away.

It is, first of all, being in nature, gardening, walking in the trees. Wild swimming, camping, whatever it is that you’re doing, it is about you. It's not about social media. It's not about giving other people that information. First and foremost, it's about you and you being in that moment. So I never get embroiled in any social media outside of horticulture. I'm not interested in it at all. I don't spend lots of time on there, so I do it in kind of, maybe first thing in the morning after I've done some yoga and meditation and then in the evening, I do it in blocks and in between my phone is nowhere to be seen. Like, if I'm out with friends and we've gone somewhere that's beautiful and I've taken some photographs, I will take five, six, seven, eight, nine, or ten photographs, even if it's amazing, or video, and then it's gone. And I would never post it if I was with other people. That's just rude to me. Do you know what I mean? I will do it later when I'm not with them anymore. So I think social media is this incredible place to promote wellness and horticulture and plants and all those kind of things. And I think that's been a catalyst for what I do, and I'm thankful to it for my career 100%. But you do have to have a balance. Don't get embroiled in anything else. I don't get it. I'm not interested in tit for tat. If anyone says anything negative, they’re gone, blocked. I have no interest in it at all. None. This is what I do. This is what I want you to see. What I want you to see, as in to help you, you know. And then I move on and get on with my day and life. So, yes, I'm very, very structured. And I do live that balanced life. So my husband once said to me, this is very funny. I got some rose petals from the allotment and I filmed getting them and I filmed bringing them home, and I filmed putting them in the bath.

And then I put my phone away, and I laid in the bath for half an hour and about the rose petals. And he's like, you literally do live the life of what you say. And I was like, yeah. And also I eat a plant based diet, and somebody tried to catch me because I think I had milk or something. I don't really remember what. It wasn't, it was oat milk or something. People try to catch you out all the time. Like you're never going to catch me out because I literally do live what I'm telling you. I don't make up anything for social media. I don't try to make anything look prettier or better or or put jazz around it. This is it. This is what I'm doing. I don't do anything other than what I'm doing. Do you know what I mean? I don't think, right, today I'm going to go and film five videos. I film what I'm doing right, if that makes sense.

No, it really does. It really does. It's very authentic as well. And I think just having that structure is such an important thing. And one thing we haven't actually mentioned is that you are creative director of Ethica, is that right? Which is you help people with their content creation and would you say that is the ethos behind Ethica?

It's exactly the same. So, authentic, real, things that are good for the world. You know, we go online and we see so much trash. Sorry, but we do. There's so much awful stuff out there. There's a lot of made up stuff. There's a lot of adverts. There's a lot of materialistic stuff. There's just just it's just a whole bubble, isn't it? Of craziness. I stick in my path and I just think there's a lot of businesses and people who are doing amazing things. Good for people, good for the planet, good for wellness, good for all those things that aren't getting seen as much. SoEthica is social media management, basically, for those people who need a little bit of help with it. So it's exactly the same thing. Even though I do social media for other companies or people, I won't be on there. Like, I now won't be on social media for the rest of today. Like I've done a little bit this morning and I'll do a little bit later in the afternoon and then and that's it. And that's the same for them. So it's really about being organized and and balancing yourself.

Wonderful great advice.

On this, podcast, Kate and I have been delving into the world of peat free gardening, and we've also become aware of lots of other different ways of gardening which help to lessen people's impact on the environment. I know that you’re involved in something called veganic gardening. Can you just tell us a little bit about that and why you subscribe to that way of gardening?

Yeah, sure. So I'm plant based, and veganic gardening isn't something that's really well known, but it's basically organic gardening, but without the use of any animal products as well. And gardening really with nature, wildlife, insects, everything in mind. Kindly. So you're gardening in the kindest way that you possibly can to the people, wildlife. So, I would only use kind of mulches that aren’t animal based, they have to be plant based or homemade. I certainly don't remove bugs or pests. I don't even spray them off with a sprayer, not even if it's on my broad beans. I leave them to do what they're going to do. So it's just a very kind way of gardening. And what I've found really overall is that it's made me a lot more empathetic, and it's made me go with the flow of the garden.

So it's made me far more patient. You know, we need patience in gardening and it's something that we don’t have a lot of, do we? And it's very easy to get really angry when your lettuce has been eaten or, you know, this year slugs and snails all over the brassicas. Whoosh, you plant them out and they're gone. But it's changed my whole, kind of mental approach to it. You know, all these other creatures have to eat as well. It's we're not here to eradicate stuff. We use prevention in veganic gardening. Of course we do. I don't want them to eat my brassicas and beans. I want to eat my beans. But if they do? Okay, fine. You know, there's other things that they're not eating, so it's just made gardening a much more calm, patient, way of being really. So. Yeah. And no animal products and no animal mulches or fish blood and bone, which I still don't understand. I just don't get why we need to use fish blood and bone. Even without veganic gardening, I don't really understand why that's a thing. So yes, but yeah, essentially it's organic gardening.

So, how do you feel we can, as garden professionals, keep people motivated when we're having to change so many of our gardening habits. So peat free, being a case in point. Rewilding, no-mow-May. I mean, you talked yourself about, you know, not using pesticides. People have been so used to that. And I think sometimes we can be a bit heavy handed with telling people, no, stop doing that. How do we how do we kind of do this gently and helping people rather than making them feel angry?

Kate, I think you've nailed it by saying that about if, we humans don't like to be told what to do. Our brains are a funny, kind of complicated thing that we claim to be intelligent. But I frequently would disagree. If you tell somebody what to do, the immediate reaction is, why should I? No. I've always done it this way. I don't want to change. How dare you tell me what to do? Yeah, so it's just a very gentle, way of saying like, this is what I do. Yeah, this is what I do. And some evidence, you know, this is what I do, and this is how it's turned out. And that's all you have to do. So, you know, I don't go out there saying, I think everybody should garden veganically. I just say this is what I do. It works for me. Give it a try if you want. But if you don't want, you know. But you'll find over time, if you keep putting that message out there, people do start to get interested and they do start to wonder why or how and give it a little go. So it's a bit more of a gentle approach, I think, you know, when there's so much going on in horticulture at the moment, is just to put out there what you're doing, you know, without telling other people that that's what they should be doing. Because we all have reasons why we are doing things our way, you know? So it's just kind of dropping in a little hint here or there and showing people aware yourselves. I think it's really as simple as that.

So softly, softly approach.

Yeah, yeah.

So we know that a lot of people tend to gardening during lockdown, especially younger people, and it's all been about mental wellbeing as well as physical benefits. But, I've had quite a lot of experience working in different sectors within horticulture, including corporate and at the RHS, case in point, and a lot of people who actually work as a career in the industry, have incredible burnout and get very, very stressed. With your kind of wellbeing-professional hat on, do you have any advice on people who actually work within the industry to combat this?

I think it's the same as any industry when even if it's something that you love doing, it can get stressful when it becomes a job, you know, and there's so much going on. So I'm going to go straight back to the beginning and that is balance. Try to find a balance on an individual level. It's about you personally finding your own balance, and you setting your own boundaries of what you will and won't tolerate. And there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries for yourself and saying, no, that's too much. You know, that's self-care in a way. It shouldn't be, but it kind of has come to that, you know what I mean? Saying, no, that's not working for me, you know? So set your boundaries individually. But on the whole, the industry in general we keep trying to kind of fight our way through to government, if you like. This is a really important, crucial industry for the country, for people and for the climate. So for the world in general, like it's massive, like when you go through all of the layers of it. So this has to come top down. Also, you know, organizations need to understand the importance of people working in this industry. So it's a two way thing kind of we need to meet in the middle of industry down, you know, on a personal level, kind of raising up to say, look, no, this is how it should be. I'm finding my balance. These are my boundaries. And the industry going, actually, this is really important. This is really important industry. So I think it's a little bit of both. I work mainly on a 1 to 1 kind of personal level with people. And you're right, I've heard people say the same thing. This is hard work, low income. You certainly don't come into horticulture to be a millionaire. Although, you know, you never know because you know, you should always. Anything is possible. And I think go back to why you're doing it. Your love of it, you know? Just just remind yourself when things are tough, why you're doing it. Thats the most important thing.

You mentioned there about the importance of horticulture. What is it that keeps you working within the horticultural world?

I just absolutely love plants. Literally the definition of a crazy plant lady, that is me. Well, I don't think I could ever. And some people say to me, Ellen, why do you love plants? And I'm like, you can't eat, drink or breathe without them. So why don't you love plants? You know, horticulture is a great industry. I've met so many friends. I've had a thriving career. I think the future is bright, difficult but bright. And I can't really imagine being in any other industry. I don't even know what it would be like if someone said there was no horticulture. You know? What are you going to do? I'd be like, oh, gosh. Because even the wellness side of what I do is all linked to nature. Nothing happens outside of nature. That's the point of it. You know, bringing people and plants together. So, I'm excited for the future of horticulture. I know things have to change. I know there's a lot going on, but horticulture could possibly be leading the way when it comes to climate. I don't think we do enough at all. There's so much more we could do. But yeah, I just love plants, so that's that. There's no other place to be.

That's brilliant. So I know, you've got coming up, something to do with, wildflower show or something. Which which sounds really exciting. If you could tell us a little bit about that, and also whether you've got anything else that's coming up that you're excited about that you're going to be doing.

This wildflower show, I'm kind of blown away with it now. So a few years ago, Michael and I visited a garden. It's called Natural Surroundings near Holt in Norfolk. I'm so pleased you've been there, Phil. Honestly, it's just it's a wonderful landscape of carefully managed, but also wild wildflowers. And its Anne and Simon have this incredible, vast knowledge bank. Simon's written some books as well, but it's kind of hidden, you know, it's just very recently become an RHS partner garden this year, which hopefully will really, really help them out. I went there the other day and there's, you know, common spotted orchids out. And then they also have areas, you know, dedicated to North American plants or European plants, all kinds of different things. They've got a really eclectic kitchen garden, a true plantsman’s kitchen garden. It's just absolutely wonderful. On every corner you turn to something different. They've decided to do a show called The Really Wild Flower Show. So just like you would, you know, go to a show and, you know, submit your three best courgettes for the rest of the world or whatever. You know, this is, all to do with wildflowers. So they have categories like a single stem umbelleva or, a small posy of seaside wildflowers in a spice jar. You know, just like, so, so, so lovely. And as far as I know, it’s the first wildflower show that I've ever seen or heard of. So that's coming up this weekend, and I'm judging some of the categories there, which is really, really exciting. And isn't it about time wildflowers? You were in the spotlight even more like this, you know, and they were talking about wildflowers where you see kind of wildflower meadows at some of the shows in the gardens now, I know, but to actually have something dedicated, purely to wildflowers just like this. Yeah, that's so exciting. So that's coming up this weekend, which I’m really looking forward to. So I host stages quite a lot. So I'm at Malvern and Gardens Wildlife, which is again the same as doing a podcast because you get to speak to the experts and the onus isn't on you as the host, you know, I mean, everyone's there to see the expert who's there and you just getting the questions out and keeping the conversation going. And then I go away and I write notes. Oh he sait that about this plant, and so on. It's just so fabulous. So next one coming up is, the RHS Malvern autumn show in September, which I'm really looking forward to as well. I love Malvern, so it's it's a kind of never ending busy whirlwind of plants in my world. I don't remember what I'm doing tomorrow, to be honest.

So, going back to at gardening, and I know you have an allotment and you love to grow veg. So do you have a veg that you would recommend? For a beginner to grow when they're just starting out on a plant based journey?

I love to grow squash. I think that we can grow squash. I know that it's like a long season, but I think it teaches you patience. I think it teaches you how to nurture something. Generally, they germinate really easily. And you have to learn about keeping, you know, slugs and snails away, and you have to keep them watered.

And then when you see this incredible, often funky shaped and colored squash, like, it's just epic. And then when you cook with it, you know, you you've got a lot of it, hopefully so you can cook tons of stuff with it. So I think with a squash it sees you through this whole lovely long process. So I would go with a squash of some kind as a vegetable.

Yeah. No that's a great that's a great recommendation actually because a lot of people say oh we would grow salad leaves and whatever. But actually if you're a, you know, a vegan or a veggie to grow squash and as you said, there's so many funky varieties out there and they're such fun. And the reward you get, you know, is immense.

Humans we need the reward.

We really do. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And finally, do you have a plant that always brings a smile to your face? No matter. You know how you're feeling.

All plants. I mean, this is the most difficult question to ask a crazy plant lady. Going back to the beginning, when I was saying about my Uncle Albert, who I used to garden with, he used to have marigolds everywhere. It was like an orange ocean of marigolds. And when I was young, I didn't understand why. But I can remember standing in his garden and thinking, oh, all these lovely orange, yellow flowers. But I, you know, I don't know why. And so Marigold really takes me back and, you know, the humble French marigold. I don't think anybody gives that enough, love. You know, we don't see it at the shows, but it's an incredible plant, you know, it's edible. It's, you know, just looks so wonderful. It's great companion planting, great organic gardening. So I grow marigolds every year because it takes me back to those lovely days.

That's lovely. Yeah. Great. Well, I think that just about wraps it up. And so that's just been absolutely fantastic. Ellen Mary, thank you so much for giving your time and talking to us today. We've learned so much. And, yeah, it's just been lovely chatting to you about all the things that you've been getting up to. So thank you.

Thank you very much for having me. Happy gardening.

Well, I thought Ellen Mary was just absolutely delightful as a guest.

And just fascinating as well. And just that passion she has. To just keep talking about connecting, connecting to nature and finding a balance. It just came across, she, you know, I just got this feeling of a very balanced kind of, you know, person that you kind of want to be with, but very drawn, very drawn to her. But some great advice. Some great tips. Yeah.

Discipline. Very disciplined about structure.

Structure, which is something that I am terrible at since I've been freelance. So yeah, structure is so important. I don't have a problem with connecting with nature at the moment, especially living where I'm living.

Yeah. You've been doing some great things just recently.

Oh my goodness. You know what, we're doing all this peat free stuff. And where I was, the last couple of days was basically on the peatlands of Dartmoor, just seeing the diversity of the plants, the flora and the fauna that are there. Yeah. And it's even more reason why we just should not be, you know, we should not be harvesting peat just to grow plants. You know, I don't mean it as an eco warrior, but just seeing that landscape, it's just so stunning and so beautiful and sustains so much life. We should not be, you know, we should not be using peat.

No, definitely not.

I don’t know quite how we got there. Ellen Mary was a fabulous guest. I'm so glad, I have wanted to chat to her for quite a while. And the more I kind of find out about what she's done, just the more fascinating it is. And just a really, a real horticulture hero of mine, actually.

That's lovely. Yeah. What a brilliant guest. All right. And check out their podcast, The Plant Based Podcast. And also her other one People-Plants-Wellbeing.

Absolutely.

Okay, Phil, see you soon. Bye.