Phil:
Hi, and welcome to The Underground, the official podcast partner of Glee 2025. I’m Phil Wright and together with my co-host Kate Turner we took our podcast booth to the Glee show in Birmingham to capture a snapshot of the industry and take the pulse of what’s going on in the garden sector right now. As well as recording 20 interviews, Kate and I ventured out of our recording booth to gain some insights from exhibitors on the show floor.

In this first episode we catch up with Peter Burks from the GCA and Boyd Douglas-Davies from the Boyd Partnership. Both have years of experience in the sector and in our conversations, they share their insights into what’s happening right now and their thoughts for the future.

We are here this morning with Peter Birks from the Garden Centre Association. Welcome, Peter.

Peter:
Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Hi, Kate.

Phil:
And it's welcome back as well. It is.

Peter:
Yeah. I've done this once before. I've got the scars. Yeah.

Phil:
So, Peter, maybe we could just start with a really simple one. How's Glee been for you so far this year?

Peter:
Right, really enjoyed it. Always enjoy Glee. Best, most important show of the of the gardening calendar for the retailers and. Yeah. Great. And we see a lot of our members. And of course, also nice to see people who want to become members as well.

Phil:
Yeah, absolutely.

Kate:
So what's caught your eye on the show floor this year? Any standout products, talks or shifts in tone?

Peter:
Ooh, shifts in tone? I’ll tell you what, the thing that always impresses me is the merchandising. I love the way people present their stands, present their products on the stands. And back in my days in within the gardens, I know I used to say to my staff, look at how they are presenting and promoting what they've got, because ultimately that's what we have to do back in our own garden centre to our customers.
So, that that's the main thing for me. I love looking at how people are changing, how they promote their products really, rather than the product.

Kate:
Anything, particularly caught your eye? Any stand-out stands?

Peter:
Well, I like the educational side of things. Yeah. So there's a couple of great things. I mean, just to mention to Evergreen, I think they are doing really good, good things with, again, how to pick out a particular product. I would say this is important. I love the pure green grass on the Westland stand, because it’s green grass, the grass seed is green. All those brilliant marketing thing. Yeah. So yeah, there's a couple of things, but I think there's a lot of really good stuff.

Phil:
It's interesting. And we were chatting with Boyd Douglas Davis earlier and he was also talking about merchandising. Even on some of the smaller stands, they've actually thought about how to present their products, not just the product itself, but how to present it and how a retailer could actually present it. And it makes a big difference, doesn't it?

Peter:
Oh, it really does. Yeah. You know, because with any garden centre, you know, I would say a good example is in garden chemicals, you get all this row myriad of boxes of all sorts of different things.
How do you choose a product from within that you know, what product is going to jump out and tell you I'm the one you should buy? And that's what this sort of shows you that you want to you know how you can make it look good in your own site.

Phil:
So you are is it the Chief executive of the GCA, the garden centre association. So what's the mood that you're seeing amongst the members at the moment?

Peter:
I’d say, generally speaking, mood is very good. Obviously, we all know that the industry had a good year so far. You know, maybe the summer hasn't been quite so good, but the spring obviously was absolutely fantastic, which couldn’t have been better: started early, you know, was a real big peak. The heat obviously not quite so good in the summer. But I do also hear the, you know, the issues around, you know, the wage costs, minimum wage rising and, National Insurance costs, that is really having a big impact on people, you know, squeezing profitability, reducing the number of staff they've actually got available on the shop floor, which is, again, I would say, not a good thing.
You know, we're known for good customer service, good advice. And, you know, we need people to be able to give that. But then also, you know what we've just been talking about regarding, you know, merchandising, you know, if you can get good advice, good point of sale, then, you know, customers are going to actually find out for themselves maybe when there's not quite so many staff there.

Kate:
So I'm going to ask you a question from the kind of more layman's point of view for, so a lot of my friends, you know, I work in this industry, go on about how you must have had an amazing year because the weather's been so incredible. So, you talked about how it's been so good at the beginning with the spring.
So why is it that the amazing weather that we've all seen and enjoyed, how's that affected negatively on the garden centre industry?

Peter:
Well, I suppose the only negatives, first of all, I would say, is the fact that the peak in the spring was so good because it was so good for gardening. And maybe also because we had such a bad year last year. There was a bit of a, there was a bit of a pent-up demand from 2024 still. So the gardening months were very good. But once we hit the heat of the summer, of course then people and there was, you know, talk of hosepipe bans and that sort of thing, then suddenly they're not going to garden quite so much.
But I have to say that also within our garden centre association figures, we do this barometer of trade and over 100 of our members put their sales figures into that. And the interesting thing for me was during the spring when the gardening categories were doing so well, the non-gardening also was doing well. So, the things like catering, giftware, clothing were all still doing well when we saw the tail off in gardening in the summer. Actually, those other categories have carried on doing well.
So that's carried the, the garden centres if you like forward. But the, the increases haven't been quite so big. With the downturn in gardening. And you know what we're like anyway as gardeners: we need the right weather at the right time. So just full on sunshine is not the right weather all the time.
So yeah, we want a normal summer when there's a good bit of rainfall to keep people gardening.

Kate:
Keep the grass going.

Peter:
Yeah. Exactly that.

Phil:
I mean that's an interesting thing though. The interesting point that you make there, we are seeing effects of climate change. Do you see that affecting the way that garden centres are operate going to operate. Are they looking to that in the future and going actually we’re going to have to rethink the way we're doing things

Peter:
There will be garden centres will be thinking about what they're offering. So you know drought resistant plants is one possibility because we've just had this very hot and dry summer. But equally last year was very wet.

Kate:
Pond plants.

Peter:
Yeah. Exactly. Should we be looking at plants that can tolerate those sorts of conditions. So I think whilst there's a bit of consideration for what might come, I don't really think there needs to be too much change in what we're offering at the moment.

Phil:
But that's potentially a few years down the line.

Peter:
Things need to change a bit more before you could start saying we need to stock different products.

Phil:
Yeah, that's fair enough. So are there any particular categories at the moment within the garden centres that you've seen that are performing better than you might have expected?

Peter:
Well, I suppose what I just said about, you know, the different the non gardening category is still doing well even in the gardening season. I think that's also quite… gives good hope for the garden centres in that, you know, if people are coming for catering obviously one of the real standouts and has been now for quite a while. And you know, people will come in for a coffee - lunch. You know again garden centres obviously do the best lunches anywhere. So you know all things about them are very good.
And they're things that customers like because they tend to be homemade. They tend to have a lot of, local, provenance, ingredients, which again, our customers like. So it's really strong things around that. So, you know catering’s brilliant. Get people in the garden centre when they're in, they're going to buy something aren't they. And if that's gifts, cards…
But you know, for us catering and food halls and farm shops, which again is another thing that's really taken off well this year I think food I like to call it gift food because I think often it's not things that you necessarily would… you're not going to do your weekly shopping. But you buy yourself a little treat, you know, nice biscuits, nice jam, nice honey.

Kate:
Chutneys

Peter:
Chutneys, yeah, absolutely.
Phil:
Personal treats.

Peter:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Kate:
So what are the hot topics you're hearing from your members this year? Are there any?

Peter:
Well, I'd say without a doubt the hot topic obviously in the spring was all about coping with the busyness. The fact that it took off so fast and the level of business was so high and there was no break in it. You know, most unusual. So that was that was really, you know, hard work for the garden centres. And of course the watering. And as we all know, with some peat free compost, it takes more regular watering. So that's an increased cost if you like. And time.

Kate:
Well that's where education is because I would just say a different way of watering.

Peter:
That's right. No you're right it doesn't need more watering. And of course some garden centres have you know learnt if you like, if we see a lot more like flood benching now which you know is a really good way. Both a water efficient way of doing it. You know, if you can stand your plants in water they soak up the, the water in it. But it's more effective.
And unfortunately I would say the other hot topic is around the, the labour costs, the labour costs, which is very significant. Because it's such a big increase over the last… You know, if you just go back over the minimum wage over the last three years, you know, it's a huge increase. And of course it’s not just the bottom end, it's a knock on effect further up. Because if the bottom end is getting more money, then you've got to pay all your staff more money.

Kate:
Absolutely.

Phil:
It was interesting, we were talking to Alan Roper, on the podcast, a few weeks ago, and he was making that point. He was saying actually that the headline is the minimum wage. But if you're a good employer, that means everybody's wages are going up.

Peter
That’s right.

Phil:
It's incremental. And that is suddenly a staggering bill for a large chain like Blue Diamond.

Kate:
Massive.

Peter:
Yeah, well, and even small, you know what I would say, you know, relatively small businesses within our organisation think the figures they talk about are astronomic. You know, wiping out almost all their profit in one year. Just from that one change that the Chancellor decided to make.

Kate:
Yeah. Madness.

Phil:
So, are there things within the GCA that you're talking about that can help alleviate those issues, you know, things like better retail practices or that sort of thing. What are the things that you're talking about that can help?

Peter:
Well, one of the things we're having a lot of discussions with, you know, various people about at the moment is about educating staff.
I mean, Kate, you just touch on about peat free compost, that’s really relevant. You know, it's a big change in the industry. And, you know, we need to get the message both onto the shop floor so that the garden centre staff know how you treat plants differently. And they can pass that on and it's not only looking after the plants within the garden centre, but like you say, it's about how you grow your plants in peat free compost. And you can be successful at it, you know, there's no doubt about it. I've had nothing but success with mine this year. And, you know, learning from what people say about feeding, you know, you should feed from the very beginning with peat free compost, you know, and not like you say with watering, you hear, you don't give them a big swamp.
You give them a little and often. Yeah, try and do it perhaps twice a day. So education for me is a really big thing, you know, if we're going to see less staff on the shop floor in a garden centre, those staff need to know more.

Kate:
The need to be knowledgeable, yeah.

Peter:
They need to be knowledgeable about the products. And I do think within the industry, one of the things we've got is, you know, take, technical products, you know, maybe feeds fertilisers as a thing. You know, the producers have put in a lot of effort. There's a lot of science going into producing their product. But that information I don't think is getting to the shop floor. And if you don't get to the shop floor, we're not telling the consumer and that's something we want to do more of.

Phil:
So, are you saying that's a brands issue as well, so that the brand needs to be able to provide that information to the retailers, and they can then disseminate that amongst their staff?

Peter:
I would say hopefully a two pronged attack. Yeah. If the brands can make more effort to get that information, either through good point of sale or through maybe their reps talking to the buyers, who then, you know, make sure the information is getting done.

Phil:
Am I right in saying that the GCA has some sort of training portal?

Peter:
Yeah, you’re just one step ahead of me. I was just about to say. Yeah. And through our e-learning platform, which we call Grow, we've now up to 98 courses on that. about all sorts of things, not just horticultural. Some of them are, compliance type courses, health and safety courses. So, it's it is really a very good, platform to get people educated.
In fact, I was talking to a young lady this morning who's just joined a garden centre. And she's been loving working her way through all those courses.

Kate:
Ah that’s interesting, because Phil and I pretty much met because we were, doing a training academy for one of the big manufacturers that all their staff can go on that, you know, it's about every single product. And I would talk about how it's used.
And I do know that a lot of the staff, there was POS, you know, that has been made up and lots of information. But a lot of the time it would just end up in the back of a garden centre not being used. So, I think what you're doing is really, really good.
But also for the garden centres too, to know that there is there is, you know, POS out there that should be used. And collaboration is really important.

Peter:
Yeah. You're right. And it is both educating the staff but then to educate the customers. So they're doing the right thing because you know there's no doubt you can be successful in, in any part of the gardening world, you know, but if you get the right information in the first place, that's how you be successful.

Phil:
Yeah. We've talked about, the financial costs and pressures on, the retailers. Are there any new emerging threats that you've seen that you're thinking on the horizon? Actually, we need to be watching that. That's that could sting us.

Peter:
Well, there's always the next budget.

Phil:
Merry Christmas!

Peter:
Yeah. Exactly. A very late budget. You kind of make many changes before the end of the year regarding that.
I think the good news in many ways is, you know, the we know the industry is very resilient. So they will work at ways of, you know, getting round any problems. And also fortunately our customers tend to garden no matter what don't they. So you know even on an awful year like last year, whilst it was a bit flat, it wasn't a disaster.
So, you know, people carry on and I think, you know, whilst you've always got one eye on what might be coming up ahead, you know, and obviously for some of the business surrounding the new inheritance taxes, for example, you know, that is a problem coming and business rates is a problem. But you know, I think, and then environmental, charge levy that's coming out now as well, which is going to be an added cost, because again, that can apply to the wholesalers, and they will pass that down the line there too.

Kate
Yeah. So has anything surprised you about the GCA role or potential since stepping into the chief executive role?

Peter:
Wow. That's a good question and did anything surprise me? Well actually, I suppose what surprised me was how good an organisation it still was, even though I hadn't been involved for a long time! I shouldn’t say that really, it's always been a good organisation.
I think really, I suppose that the potential is there to have, you know, more members and for the collaboration, I think, between our associate members, which are, you know, suppliers with the garden centres, because again, I think there's a big education and communication side of things to make sure that both sides are talking to each other and getting the best for themselves and for the industry as a whole.
So, yeah, I think from that point of view. Yeah. But, you know, it is dynamic. You know, it's a dime dynamic organisation. Lots of stuff is going on all the time. You know, we're always like reaching out to other areas of the gardening world to try and, you know, get our influence involved. You know, for example, done a lot of work on the peat free front with the RHS. You know, which normally you'd say we wouldn't be particularly, you know, aligned with the RHS. But you know, they've got all the same sort of issues. So, you know, and you know, us being like the retail arm, we can help out and they can help us. So, it's all a good thing. Yeah.

Phil:
We're talking, about garden centres. There's a lot of talk about digital first marketing, but many centres still rely on the more traditional local and relationship-based approaches. How do you see that balance evolving?

Peter:
Right. Again, another really good question. We introduced into our inspection process, you know, we inspect all our centres every year.
Social media, which are judged if you like, or scored, inspected their social media offering, because I could see that that was, you know, obviously the way of the world. And how important it is, you know, and how much information there is out there about how people will always go online first before they go out to visit somewhere to buy anything.
So obviously that is something that people are starting to take on board. And perhaps I think maybe the industry is not the fastest to, adopt some of this, but I think they are, and the good ones are really doing some really good stuff now.

Phil:
That's really interesting if it’s now part of your, overall scoring system. So they are being benchmarked and they can go they can see that and say, oh, look we really are below par on here. we need to up our game.

Peter:
Yeah. And interestingly enough we, we run webinars, try and do a webinar a month on all sorts of different topics. But our most popular webinar to date was the one we did on social media. Yeah.

Phil:
Right. Interesting.

Kate:
So for GCA members, what are some of the most effective ways you've seen centres build customer loyalty and drive footfall.

Peter:
Oh another good question. Yeah, I think I think what garden centres are really good at is obviously being part of their community. And I think, you know, that they don't want to be seen as a big money grabbing business, you know, like perhaps some of the, you know, big box retailers are or even some of the high street retailers where, you know, it's just about coming in, paying your money and going out again. They do an awful lot to liaise with what the community are doing, encourage people in to, you know, have events, you know, hold different events within the garden centre and get people in.
And I think, you know, a bit like the question just before, you know, about marketing, you know, your best marketing is always still word of mouth. If people can recommend you, you're going to go there, right. So that's really good. And I just think, you know, it's not new in any way. But if you can interact with your community and be seen as part of the community, those customers who are benefiting from that become your ambassadors and they will speak well of you to absolutely everybody won’t they? And you know, you, you can't ask for more than that, can you?

Phil:
So, Peter, what's exciting you most about, the way that garden centres are evolving at the moment and the direction they're heading?

Peter:
The most, I suppose, probably for me, one of the nicest things is the fact that people are being a bit more scientific about their approach, maybe. You know, historically, garden centres tended to be perhaps a bit, I don't know, I'm going to say stuck in their ways, but they had a very definite way of doing business, and each one could be very different.
You know, that one place could have masses of plants. You know, other people would say, you know, we're not going to sell any garden furniture. But I think now people are using the data much better. They can see how much space they should allocate to different ranges, how much they should have, almost like when they should have it.
And I think so that is becoming much more efficient. And like I say, I like the scientific approach. I'm a scientist myself. So therefore, you like…

Phil
You like the numbers.

Peter:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, funnily enough, you know, you say about numbers, people, some people who say, oh, I would never have my garden centre run by an accountant. But that's not what it's about. It’s about understanding what works, what doesn't work. And your data will tell you that if you can get that information and then you can make decisions. And again, in the modern day where you know, profit margins are so tight that you don't want to be wasting money anywhere. So, if you can find areas that you can do a bit better then you know, and that might be something you're doing very well at. And because again, in my view is if you do something really well, there's probably a reason why you do really well. Maybe you could actually do even better on that thing rather than looking at too much of the negative stuff.

Kate:
So are there any, new initiatives or changes, coming from the GCA that members can look forward to?

Peter:
Are there new initiatives? No, I don't think there are really! We're, happy with pretty much happy where we are. There is obviously a lot of what we do is very good. So, you know, whilst, you know, things like things we do at the conference, you know, there's always different things there, different speakers, different themes.

Phil:
Oh, you’ve got a good speaker coming this year.

Peter:
Yes we have. Yeah.

Phil:
Tell us about that?

Kate:
Are you allowed to say?

Peter:
Mary Portas. Yes.

Phil:
That’s a fantastic get.

Kate:
Queen of shops.

Peter:
Yes. That's right. Yeah. So she’s going to be in on the Monday. We’re going to have another headline one but I can't tell you about yet. Okay. Who will be on Tuesday.
But that was you know, again one of our changes this year, Ben, from Haskins is our chairman elect, and he's organising next year's conference, that’s his role. And he was very keen to have some headline speakers, which, you know, again, they've got some interesting things to say and, you know, hopefully things that the industry can take on board.

Phil:
Certainly, achieved the brief there, I think.

Peter:
Yeah.

Phil:
I've got a question which I just want to slip in and that is we were chatting yesterday to,a new owner of an old garden centre.

Kate:
Reverend Dave

Phil:
And, he's he's owned it for about 18 months. Birley Moor, up in Sheffield. And he's not got a retail background and he's come into the sector and he's wanting to do so much, but he's very unsure about what he's doing. What would you, what would be your advice to someone like him, you know, about, being able to maximise and get the most out of his garden centre.

Kate:
But he's also very much into community. Very much. They’re already doing Forest School in the garden centre, Grandpa Joe's street shack, you know, so community, what you're saying is very much where he wants to come from.

Peter:
Right. Well, obviously the most important thing. First of all, he needs to join the GCA.

Kate:
We did tell him.

Peter:
Because you get there and you're amongst like minded people and, you know, you only have to mix with those people. And if you've got an idea, does this work? Have you ever tried that before? And people will help you to shape your good things. I mean I would say almost you know, all of us are shoppers. What do you like shopping. Yeah. How would you shop? What would you like to see? How? You know, make it straightforward.
Make it simple. And I'm sure from that he would know what he would like to do and what he would like to experience. And you can start from that point of view.

Phil:
So, so I mean, I'm not saying I'm not putting words into his mouth. I'm just, just saying. So, if I was, a garden centre owner and an independent and I've just taken it on and I'm not really sure about what I should be doing, or where my priorities should be.
And I know that there's an awful lot that I need to do because it's not performing at where perhaps it should. It's quite a big step to join the GCA just because… Or is it? Just because I might be - not embarrassed - but I'd be worried that my store just isn't in the same league as many of these… as many of the other GCA stands, stores.

Kate:
Isn’t good enough.

Peter:
Right. So that's a good point in the fact that we would always send one of our inspectors to inspect any new member before they join, and we would expect them to score over 50%, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to join. But obviously we give them that feedback and they can see where they can then make improvements to hopefully then be able to join.

Phil:
And give them advice as to what… You don't just say, oh, you've fallen down here and here. Yeah. But you say, actually these are things that you can do to improve.

Peter:
Yes. And also suggest places they would go and see it being done well. So again they can then learn from the, the better one.

Kate:
So you could put them in touch with other members that could maybe almost mentor them a little bit.

Peter:
That’s right. Yeah. And the other thing I was going to say is that the HTA run a really good scheme called the… it used to be the retail business improvement scheme, but now business improvement scheme which is run in various regions all around the country. And that is a great thing for people to join. You know, as we see often, it's almost like a stepping stone to the GCA. So some people go there, again, they get a lot of feedback from that group. They get, mentored by the person who runs the scheme. And, you know, they can then improve. And if they then want to take a step up further, they can join us and, you know, and it goes a little bit further still.

Phil:
No, that's really useful. And I think I'll pass that on to relate all the information to Reverend Dave.
Fantastic, thank you so much, Peter, for coming in to see us today and, telling us about, what the GCA is getting up to and, just giving us more of an overview of the sector and how things are going has been really interesting chatting to.

Kate:
Thank you

Peter:
Yeah, I loved it. Thank you.

Kate:
So I am here with Olivia Young who's the marketing manager for Lodi UK. We've been walking past this stand quite a lot when we're coming in and out and it's really eye catching. Can you just tell us a little bit about the thinking behind it, who you are and what you do?

Olivia:
Yeah. So we are a pest control company. And basically, we try and look for like ingenious ways to make pest control fun. Because some people are quite negative about the subject. We also try and be a bit memorable. So, every year this is our fourth no third Glee, sorry. And we try and do a different theme each time.
So, this year we've gone with the Pest Premier and we had a little idea to like, re-enact, films for a bit of nostalgia. Everybody loves a bit of nostalgia and making ourselves a bit memorable as well. So, we've got four different ranges that we bring to Glee. We've got Storm, which is the outdoor cleaning section and patio cleaners. So we do Storm Wars for that. Then we did Casino Racan, which is our rodent control range with all the baits as well. And then we've done The Slug Father which is slugs and our organics natural range. And then also the last one we've done Mission Insecticide instead of Mission Impossible. And that is all aimed at insects and it's our Insecto range.

Kate:
So I love that. Fun. So is it the company that's come up with the idea or do you employ marketing? It's me and my team. So, we dream up these big ideas. We have like big creative brainstorms, and then the whole campaign goes around that theme as well. So not just at Glee, but pre-show marketing and post-show as well, just so everyone knows what to expect.
And that theme won't then carry on in our branding, it’s just for the show.

Kate:
And how have you found Glee has been this year? How have people been reacting to you?

Olivia:
Well, everybody loves that. Everybody's grabbed the popcorn. We still got lots to get rid of. So please come over to our stand if you want it. Because we don't want to take it home.
They’ve just loved it because I think it's just about being memorable for us. And people have walked past and it's caught their eye and it's a good talking point. Then if someone's come over and said, so what is it you do? And you're like, well, this is what we do - Pest control. So it breaks the ice, so loved it.

Kate:
Brilliant, well, it's great fun and I absolutely love it. And good luck with the rest of the show. And thanks for talking to us.

Olivia:
Thank you.

Phil:
We are so excited to have with us today Boyd Douglas-Davies, who is here representing all sorts of people, but we're specifically talking to him today about Greenfingers.
Welcome, Boyd.

Boyd:
Thank you. Good morning.

Kate:
Good morning.

Phil:
So, Boyd, happy floral Thursday.

Boyd:
Indeed. It is happy. You can't be anything but happy, can you? All these wonderful floral costumes everybody's wearing. You've just got a smile.

Kate:
Absolutely. And can I just say you're looking amazing.

Boyd:
Well, thank you very much. Likewise.

Phil:
So, Boyd, for anyone new to the show, what does Floral Thursday mean and how did it start?

Boyd:
Well, Floral Thursday is a celebration of what we all do all year long, which is we work in the floral industry, don't we? So, Trevor Pffiefer, our good friend Trevor, decided a few years ago that we should actually put our, sleeves on to show what we do. You know, wear our work, if you like.
So floral Thursday has become an absolute institution of Glee. It's just the day when everybody seems to get into most wonderful outfits I've just been seeing… There's complete teams, companies have had complete outfits created for their teams. Fantastic. So it's really good. I've just been on a photo shoot this morning with the whole of the Glee team. They are so embracing it. And Matt Mein’s even gone to a hat, floral hat and jacket and shirt.

Phil:
That’s raised the stakes.

Boyd:
It has, I didn't want to ask about the socks because we were all going to get sock envy.

Kate:
Oh. I'm looking forward to seeing that. So you've had a packed week already, how's the show been from your perspective?

Boyd:
Too short. It needs to be much longer

Kate:
Noooo.

Boyd:
I'm probably one of the few people who say that. It's been really busy, actually. It's been very good. I think we set off on a really flying start day one. I seems to be a lot of people here. The new layout, I know it's a one-year layout because we move halls again, but I think the layout has been great this year because there's been these little sections where actually the theatre area feels like it's in its own zone.

Kate:
Love the theatre area.

Boyd:
Yeah, really good. And having the two theatres gives lots of content, so that's been busy. The plant area, the Green Heart. Plants are back in the show, which has been a big ambition for the last couple of years to have plants as a feature and 23 different growers here. with lots of lovely stock, that's good. And I think that the main boulevard, the sort of the big long run has been busy, busy, busy hasn't it. All the time.

Kate:
Absolutely. And it's felt a bit like Chelsea Flower Show. You've got your main avenue for your big show gardens, and although sometimes we feel a little bit cut off down here, but you know we're getting you know, we're still seeing lots of people and I think it's nice to get away from that. Big area and just to have a bit of breathing time and a bit of space.

Boyd:
But I think you get as you get onto the fringes of the show, what you actually get is the discerning quality. There's the fringe because when you bring a team, you know, I've been bringing teams 38 years was it, I was bringing teams as a buyer.
So you bring a team and of course: garden sundries, tools, those sorts of things, you might bring your shop manager. So, you as the owner or the MD or whatever, you come along with the team, fill the car - you will go to the big brands won't you? You'll go down the lane. But then you'll leave your shop manager in that section to get deep dive into the detail of all the new products, whatever.
Whereas then the owners, the MDs, the senior leadership team then go and walk the rest of the show so you won't get the footfall in terms of pure volume, but you get the quality around the edges. And I see the owner, you know, when I've been walking the show for the last two days, more often than not bump into the owners and senior leaders in these edge lands.
So I don't think it's volume, but it's the quality. You. Know, Alan Roper said the other day did the on your very podcast. So I want to see more. That guy is pounding the edges. He's not spending that long in that heart area because he's got a whole team doing that.

Kate:
And he knows what's there already.

Boyd:
Exactly, he’s seen it before the show.

Kate:
He's scouting new talent, new products. Smaller people to support.

Boyd:
Yeah. And I say to every exhibitor says, oh, we don't see that many people, but they’re seeing the right people.

Kate:
That's a really good message actually for us to, to kind of put out there because I think we've been a little bit guilty of saying, well, it's a little bit quiet here, but I think what you said, it's, it's quality not quantity. We'll take that.

Phil:
Absolutely. So Boyd you are the chairman of the Green Fingers Charity. And we know from working closely with the charity how special it is. But for anyone unfamiliar with what they do. Yeah. How do you describe the charity's mission and impact?

Boyd:
It's very simple. Greenfingers raises money to build gardens in children's hospices.
Simple as that. And then you go beyond that and say, these gardens are amazing. They're not just a garden that's pretty. They're functional. So the gardens have evolved… We’re 25 years old. So over that time, we've gone from the very first gardens were exactly what you would imagine. They were pretty to look at. They were lovely floral delights. And more often than not, 25 years ago, a child in a hospice room had no direct access to the garden. They had a window. So that was the view was to improve that for them.
As the hospices have been built and developed over the last few years, we've seen a big change that really when you see a hospice being built now, each room will have a door directly onto the outdoor space. So now the garden is part of the treatment space.
So, the outdoor space is part of a very big function. So, our gardens have evolved from being pretty to look at, to really useful, they're therapeutic. They're where families can meet up and sometimes rest from the discussions and the tension that's in the room. They're also where the child might actually physically have some therapy outside.
They're also where the staff and the carers will go out and spend some time because they're working in an intense environment. They're amazing you go and meet staff in hospices, and they are brilliantly cheerful people, but sometimes they need to just go off into a garden and have ten minutes.

Kate:
And also space for families as well, and siblings.

Boyd:
Yes, absolutely, because a child might be in a hospice for hours, days, weeks, or they might be a regular visitor. And so then brothers and sisters will come spend time with them. So play is a part of those gardens nowadays. So whilst they're wonderful to look at, they are also multi-functional. So the short answer children's hospice gardens, the long answer so much more.

Kate:
So much as is gardening in general. So Greenfingers has had a presence at some really high profile garden shows this year. How important is that public facing exposure as part of the charity's next chapter?

Boyd:
It's a big, big opportunity for the charity to become nationally known. So, I would say that as an industry, horticulture has embraced Greenfingers. And yeah, today floral Thursday. Yeah, yeah. If you're not in florals you're probably going to the waste show down the road aren't you? Yeah, the show is in florals. So, the industry has really embraced Greenfingers and supports it wonderfully. But then you look at the 41 million people who individually visit garden centres every year. Now it's communicating with them. So, the shows, when we went out and we met the public, three big shows this year, which was wonderful to be at as Greenfingers, the engagement with the public.
And for many of them, of course, they know what the children's hospice is, they've maybe had some contact with a children's hospice or certainly a hospice, not always child hospice, but they hadn't met Greenfingers. And we had these beautiful gardens created by wonderful people for us. And we were able to explain that these were little vignettes or snapshots of what we do.
In one case, of course, the RHS Wentworth was a complete garden. That garden is actually being rebuilt now at the hospice just down the road from the Wentworth Showground. So that was an absolute mirror image of a garden. But the other two were to inspire people to realise that we were doing this. And so, getting out, meeting the public and it's one of our big asks now 25th anniversary year is we're saying to everybody, if you could tell 25 people for us about Greenfingers, please just tell them about Greenfingers, that would be wonderful.

Phil:
And so you were at these big shows, what's the public reaction been like when they visited the stand and seen the gardens and heard the story?

Boyd:
I think they've been amazed. They've been generous. We've had donations. We've had donations at the show. We've had, online donations from people later that day and some and some significant donations.
And they've been hugely intrigued and interested in what we're doing. Because they're at a garden show.

Phil:
So there's an interest there.

Boyd:
They've got an interest in the garden, and they obviously have an interest at either new or established level. But suddenly they're seeing and thinking about that. And we've had an amazing amount of volunteers who've helped us at the shows and have spent time talking to the public and that engagement with both public, but also, we've had some really interesting situations where people have come along as members of the public have then taken us back to their companies, and told their charity teams or whatever. about us. So, we have high hopes that that will lead to some new partnerships with some of the big national companies, which we've had wonderful partnerships in the past and currently. But suddenly you're meeting people who are just at the show because it's Saturday and that's what they're doing. They're going to the show, and then they suddenly telling us, well, actually, I work for so-and-so, and actually, can I take a leaflet back for my boss? So I think the impact of these shows will be felt for a long time.

Kate:
So, so where do you go from there? And, you know, in terms of even more visibility, have you got something planned next, you know, further into the mainstream?

Boyd:
We'd love to attend other shows, but what we do is we raise money to build gardens at hospices, so we can't spend that money on a show garden. So, we rely on the generosity of the people that paid for those gardens this year. So, if somebody comes to us and they want us to be involved in a garden, we'd be delighted. But we can't and mustn't spend our own money on a garden because that's just not why we've been given the money, how we've raised the money. So, we'd love to go and do more shows. But, in the meantime, our communications, through our events, we've got some amazing events that our supporters are doing.
And we've got. I have to say, you can party crazy, crazy people who are going up Kilimanjaro. You know. What a bunch of lunatics. But aren't they brilliant?

Kate:
You're not going Boyd?

Boyd:
No, I'm. I'm going to. Somebody's going to stay at home and answer the phones. So, I mean, there's a whole big team of them going up there next June, which is phenomenal, isn't it? And so that's going to raise the profile of the charity.
We've got garden Relief Day in the spring where it isn't just the trade. That get involved in Garden Relief Day nowadays. We have members of the public join the walks. Members of the public of course through schools and garden centres get involved. So, we're going to keep on talking to the public, because it only takes a few pennies from a lot of people and it will make a huge difference.
And we have a huge ambition really to keep building gardens but not only build them but maintain them. That's something we've not been in a position to do in the past because our money has gone on the creation, but we're now employing people to be, actually looking after and helping with the gardens.

Kate:
Gardeners?

Boyd:
Well, they're going to be garden advisors, because often a hospice has a wonderful team of volunteers who are there because they want to help the hospice. They’ve maybe benefited and appreciated the garden, so they want to give something forward for others to use. But if we can put a professional gardener, somebody with some expertise, even in their just one day a month to work with the volunteers and guide them on, oh, don't cut that back. Or, definitely give that a good pruning and all that sort of good knowledge. Then that will be actually another way of sustaining the gardens and making the level of enjoyment and the benefit to the children and the carers even greater.

Kate:
Because as a charity, you use a professional, often a very high profile garden designer and you are paying them commercial…

Boyd:
Yeah, absolutely.

Kate:
That way you know you're going to get the job done. So it does seem a really good logical step to then make sure there's somebody that garden keeps looking its best.

Boyd:
For a lot of people actually maintaining a garden is a great joy. For some people it's creating it. For others it's actually weeding it and mowing the lawn and pruning, and actually enjoying that. So, there is lots of people who want to help. And if we can provide that guidance then that will make sure those gardens are correct. But yes, we employ professional designers, professional landscape firms to build these gardens because they're so important to get it right. And the money involved is big. You know we’re just finishing, literally just finishing off our biggest ever garden project is £400,000 to build because there's a lot goes into… Yes, there's nearly a thousand plants in there, but there's hard landscaping. There's the pathways, the creating of the space, the drainage, all the bits that you don't really see, but allow that garden then to become a beautiful place. So that's one that opens this month, later on this month.

Kate
And where's that?

Boyd:
That's at Hope House in Shropshire.
So, we'll do small gardens, sometimes we might do a garden makeover. It could be 10 or 25,000, but a garden build is pretty much always a six figure sum nowadays.

Kate:
Yeah, absolutely.

Phil:
So we're here at Glee and we've already mentioned that it's Floral Thursday. Greenfingers is right at the heart of Floral Thursday. There's so many activities going on today. Can you tell us a little bit about what's happening.

Boyd:
Yes. Well later on we've got the big floral gathering. Every year we say it's the, probably the world's largest gathering of floral people. One year we need to actually find out if we are achieving that Guinness record. I guarantee you, they'll be hundreds of people today at 12:30, gathering for the Big Floral Thursday photo shoot. So keep an eye out for that in the, on media - that's going on. Around the rest of the show. There's still talks and presentations going on. The Greenfingers team are here, in force today, talking to people about what's going on within the charity and all the new gardens.
And there's an awful lot of exhibitors…

Kate:
Raffle tickets.

Boyd:
Raffle. Exactly. Yes. We all got caught on the way, didn't we? Yes. They do a great job and there's a lot of doors into Glee. And every single one of them is protected by a Greenfingers raffle ticket seller. And the good thing is there's another show just down the hall, and they were all being told, you can donate and pay as well.
So there was a lot of tickets being sold this morning, which is wonderful.

Kate:
So shifting gears, as a consultant and long term sector insider, what stood out to you on the show's floor this year?

Boyd:
I think the enthusiasm of the manufacturers. I think inevitably a couple of three years ago, we had a Covid lull where they couldn't develop new product. They couldn't…. They got a lot of their team on furlough. A lot of teams were, not working at full pace, inevitably. And that then had a ripple effect, because the manufacturers, of course, as their program works, they're always working almost two years ahead of themselves. So, whilst Covid was 2021, we've probably saw the impact in the shows really 23, maybe 24 even.
We're now here at 25. They've been back at full strength. I think the innovation in terms of packaging, marketing, that's been really strong and not just in the age old, the big boys, but I think there's a lot of suppliers have invested hugely in their exhibits. They've put on a really good show, they've got a lot of quality products. And that is the other thing I'm seeing is quality. The quality of the products, I think constantly is improving in terms of its manufacture, in terms of its labelling and presentation. So, I think we're shifting all the time towards from good to better and better the best. And I think that's only good for our industry to be offering great products, isn't it? And the show is packed with them.

Kate:
Yeah, we've interviewed quite a few people and they're very, you know, determined that we are UK made. All our parts are UK made because of the quality. And we really believe in that. And I think that's good to see.

Boyd:
It’s important. And it's important because when you're in the garden centre end, you know when you go to the restaurant, the local messaging around the sausage, the local food. Now that same customer is buying the products in the shop. Yeah. So their attitude and their mindset is already set that they support local. And we as a nation I think are becoming more and more supportive of our own industries. So that's great. We've got products that have been made in the UK, we've got products being made in Europe and that's great that we bring it closer.
Occasionally there is something that has to come from the Far East. Of course there is, because they are the only people to make that type of product or so on. So that's great. But I think the culture of local first, regional and then moving out, that seems to be the buyer's mindset nowadays, doesn't it? Which is wonderful.

Phil:
So have there been any, products or category trends that have really caught your eye going around the show today, or this week?

Boyd:
Yeah. I think making life simple for new gardeners.

Phil:
OK, so that’s really important.

Boyd:
So I think you see interesting that actually packaging is becoming less technical. Still very informative. So I don't I wouldn't say people are dumbing down the packaging, but I think they're thinking about the audience the first time pick up. And when somebody looks at it and says, I just don't know.
I have an absolute nightmare every time I walk into a supermarket and walk down the washing powder aisle, it's horrific, isn't it? Well, you just think, oh, is it bio or non-bio, colour or non-colour fast or is it pods or packets.

Kate:
Cool wash, hot wash, yeah.

Boyd:
Yeah. And I do think that sometimes in the past our customers first time visitors to the, the garden Ferts & Chems aisle must have that same panic attack that I have in the supermarket. And I think what I've seen is across all the manufacturers them really thinking about actually the person reading the packet. And I think that's great.
So I think that's a consistency I’ve seen across.
I've seen lots of useful gardening gift lines. I think we've probably as an industry moved away from dust catchers, which is probably what a lot of the gifts were. In garden centres over the last few years or ten years ago. You got lots of nice things, but actually all you were going to do was give it to Auntie who dusted it. I think actually there’s some quality. So people are giving nice gift sets in tools and people are looking for Mum or auntie or granny or daughter: She loves her garden. She's got lovely houseplants. There's some beautiful quality made watering cans.

Kate:
Yes. Oh yes. I’ve got watering can envy this year.

Boyd:
Oh well did you see the YPHA one yesterday?

Kate:
No.

Boyd:
Oh my goodness me. So the YPHAA, which I'm an ambassador for, have had their Launch Success programme this year, ten students on that programme as you know, you interviewed a very important one, Beth. And of course, yesterday Beth was declared to be student of the year.

Phil:
Oh, fantastic.

Boyd:
So she got the award for the most outstanding student. They were all brilliant.

Phil:
Well, congratulations, Beth.

Boyd:
The guys at Haws created and painted a special watering can in Bountiful Pink - Pink. Only one in the world and it's now Beth’s watering can.

Phil:
Oh that's brilliant.

Boyd:
Yeah it’s fantastic. And of course people want.. Yeah they're buying a nice. Now, this was a full sized garden can she got there was no messing with that - But of course those smaller cans instead of using a watering vessel which is actually normally known as a milk bottle. People are buying quality cans and things. And I think and it's a wonderful gift line isn't it? So, I'm seeing more and more of what's on the stands that is good quality - useful gifts. So I think that's another trend.

Kate:
So you speak to a lot of businesses. What's the general mood in garden retail right now?

Boyd:
We've had a, a roller coaster year for sure. Yeah. The rocket start with plants and gardening in the early spring was fantastic. Then of course, the mid-May big roller coaster dip where the weather came into play. And if you had a hosepipe ban or not, it was hot, wasn't it? And it was too hot for too long. So, plant sales dropped dramatically. So, I think people have ended up having an okay year. From a fantastic spring to a poor summer -so okay. So, the mood about that is okay, then we've had a good start to the autumn. So, garden centres are feeling that - yeah this is good, bulbs, autumn gardening, autumn colour is going well. There is of course a looming budget. It's very late end of November.

Kate:
Really late.

Boyd:
I mean you could almost call it a Christmas budget. Which is not a good time. It's not a good time. So, I think there is a nervousness about not only about the timing, which is poor, but also the content.
What will the content of that budget be? We're in a country which paid an awful lot of money out during Covid. You know, I don't I don't view this as a political situation. I think it's just the situation we're in as a country that there was an awful lot of money had to be spent then. And whichever party was in power right now would be having challenges.
So, I don't think it's unique to the party that's in power. But I think that is giving concern to retailers. They pushed hard last year to make sure their costs were as low as possible, so the wage bills went up. Inevitably, with all those rises, the costs of running the business went up. There isn't really… the people I talk to, there isn't really anything left to pull.

Kate:
There’s no more room is there?

Boyd:
So we've got to have growth. We’ve got to have growth. I think the mood of the nation though is it's very garden focussed. I've really high belief that the next ten years will be all about garden growth, and that's both at a national level. I spend a lot of time in London in government discussions with my role there, and there's a very positive air within the civil service about how horticulture and our sector, environmental horticulture will play its part.
We've made a big change a couple of years ago by renaming ourselves from ornamental horticulture, which had a danger of being viewed as pretty - but maybe not very effective. Which of course, it was hugely effective, but the name maybe was being misused or misunderstood. So environmental horticulture - still a very serious industry, very serious player and a big player in actually what can make a difference to many, many things.
So, the discussions were having a very diverse at the moment.

Kate:
And you’re finding it positive, are you?

Boyd:
Very positive: across many, many departments, not just Defra, but across many other departments in governments because they see the value of horticulture in terms of employment opportunities, because we have a lot of opportunities. Health benefits, social benefits, health: mental health and physical health. So you can talk there. Education. We've been talking with Department of Science and Innovation. We're a very scientific industry. There's a lot of things going on that people assume or don't even think exists. So, lots of good engagement. So, I think the positive sides are there to be had. The weather as always, it's Britain the big influencer.
But that's what makes Britain a lovely garden nation as well, doesn't it? Without the sunshine and without the rain and without the colder winters, we wouldn't have such a diverse garden anyway. So it’s the seasonality that actually makes us the world's greatest gardeners.

Kate:
Absolutely.

Phil:
So, Boyd, you have like an overview of the sector. You're in a position where you get to see all sorts of different things that are going on. Are there any opportunities that you think are being underplayed within the sector at the moment?

Boyd:
I think making your garden sent to the community hub, I think people are looking to belong to things. That the public want to feel part of something. They've had isolation, they had the lockdown, on the back of that, they've now they really want to socialise and interact with people and gardening is such a great opportunity to meet people and to learn from others. And I think at the moment there's a lot of gardening clubs. They take place on a Wednesday night in the village hall. Why are they not happening on a Saturday morning in the garden centre or a Thursday evening in the garden centre. So I think actually garden centres becoming the hub of that passion is a big opportunity. I don't see that happening very often. I do occasionally see garden centres creating the opportunity for people to meet, but I think that's a big thing.

Kate:
We actually spoke to somebody yesterday on the podcast. He's recently bought a garden centre. Reverend Dave.

Boyd:
Oh yes. Up in Sheffield.

Kate:
Birley Moor. That's right. Yeah. And he that's exactly what he's saying. I think he wants it to be the community hub. And a couple of other people have been saying that as well. So I think it's, it's, it's getting that's gaining momentum.

Boyd:
Well imagine on a Saturday morning if you've got a group of people and you put a pot of coffee on and they all come together and meet, and then they start walking around your plant area telling others about the wonderful plants you're selling. What a sales force.
So I think it's so big opportunities. Then I'll come around and show you how to prune your apple tree and suddenly they're actually working together. And oh, is these the secateurs you got? Oh, you need a new pair. And so they become this huge, wonderful ambassadors for your business. And I think it's just about putting the kettle on and bringing them together. I think it’s as simple as that.

Kate:
And good cake.

Boyd:
Yeah. Which, of course garden centres… a good cake, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.

Kate:
So, final thoughts on Glee this year? Anything you're particularly proud or excited about?

Boyd:
Well, I've been involved with Green Heart for the last couple of years, so I'm really pleased to see how that's grown. And the members of the Green Heart, the ones that are exhibiting, have been rebooking for next year. Which is always good news, isn't it? After two, well, after day one, we had people wanting to, to secure their space. So that's wonderful to see the plants are back. It was a very tricky time when the show was in a different shape and format. Plants had to be outside and therefore they weren't in the show and the plants are back in the show has been great. I think the theatres have been really good. They've had the big three, haven't they? On stage this year they've had Dobbies, Blue Diamond and the ladies from British Garden Centres.

Phil:
Oh, I thought you were going to say: And the underground and The Underground.

Boyd:
That's the dynamic duo, not the big three.

Kate:
Unfortunately, because you're too busy talking to people we’ve missed out, but we did have, Amy and Libby Stubbs on the podcast

Boyd:
Brilliant.

Kate:
They are so inspiring.

Boyd:
A wonderful combination. The two of the work together so well.

Kate:
The energy - wow.

Boyd:
Yeah. Fantastic. But yeah, to have those three companies on stage talking openly, so I think the theatre has been a great success. And the new Food Theatre that's been… that's year one for that. And like all these things that will grow. So, I think there's been an enthusiasm for that that you can see growing and growing. And I think the scale of the investment by the manufacturers, the effort they've gone to, some of these folks have been planning for a year haven’t they?
And I think that's wonderful, it just shows what a vibrant industry they see and how confident they are in garden centres.

Kate:
Are there any plans for a best and best exhibit to come for Glee? Has that ever been a thing?

Boyd
Yeah. You could upset 450 people and make one very happy. It'd be an interesting one to judge, wouldn't it? Because some of the smallest stands have got the best nuggets of new product, haven't they. And then the biggest stands of course have got probably many new products. But how would you judge that. There's a thought for the next few months isn't it.

Phil:
Well, we have seen a few which, which really stand out. I think about as you go around the show, there's lots of sameness in the way things are presented, but there are few people who've gone really creative the way they've brought their message to life. And I think that's the that should be applauded.

Boyd:
Yeah. And there's some people who've brought along clever merchandising solutions.
Down in the GIMA village, you walk around there and some of the people have got great products, but they've actually thought about how to sell it in garden centres. Probably the most challenging product is the LV bespoke. Wonderful things on metal spikes, you know. So you just start with and go, well how are you going to display that?
They've dealt with it. They've got this lovely little simple stand which does it beautifully. So, you could get awards for innovation which actually is merchandising innovation for you. And that would be…

Phil:
That sounds really good.

Boyd:
Maybe we need a whole… this is a whole load of awards. Best in show. Is that smaller. The most effective use of your marketing budget.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Ooh you maybe started something. All sponsored by…

Kate:
The Underground Podcast.

Boyd:
You said it not me.

Phil:
Thanks Kate!

Kate:
Phil’s kicking me!

Boyd:
We knew we’d lead her there.

Kate:
We need to get our own sponsor first.

Boyd:
Well you’ve had great content this year, haven’t you? It's fantastic.

Kate:
Oh. Thank you. Really enjoying the content. It's, you're my sort of regular go to.

Kate:
Stuck in a traffic jam

Boyd:
Well, I do cover a lot of miles in the year. And every week I'm on the road, and every week it's like, flick up and it comes up on screen on the car. And I’m like – bom. Who's next? And some of them I've listened to several times. Yeah yeah yeah. You talked about Beth earlier, that was a great one.

Kate:
Ah, she was amazing. And again, that energy and passion.
And that's you don't get that in many other industries. Do that passion and I love it.

Boyd:
Yeah. Yeah absolutely. And that's where friends say to me they can't believe how actually intertwined we are as industry when they work in other industries where they would not be allowed to even be seen in the same pub as their competitors, let alone actually drinking with them in the same pub.

Phil:
And sharing information. People are very open, I've found, you know, very happy to share what's working…

Kate:
Up to a point.

Phil:
Yeah. I mean obviously there are commercial secrets.

Boyd:
I think everybody knows where the boundaries are don’t they? But they actually enjoy bouncing off each other with their ideas. Garden centres, talking to garden centres. You see that.
That's one of the other big things Glee is, isn't it? It's a it's a great think tank of best ideas. Some of the conversations in the aisles. Are, no doubt hugely valuable to other garden centres.

Kate:
Yeah. Definitely.

Phil:
Yeah. So, thank you so much Boyd for coming in and sharing all your knowledge and passion for the for the sector. It's been really good talking to you today.

Boyd:
Lovely to see you both.

Kate:
Thank you.

Phil:
Please do subscribe, like and review us on your podcast platform of choice – it only takes a moment, and it helps us to make the podcast possible. If you found this episode useful, do spread the word and share it with your colleagues. Signing up to our mailing list at theunderground.fm will mean that you’ll receive insight and news and new episodes, straight to your inbox.

The Underground podcast is produced by WrightObara a creative marketing agency for home and garden brands. The production at Glee doesn’t happen without a team of people behind it, so my thanks goes to:
Matt Mien and Keterina Albanese from the Glee team for their help and assistance.
Technical production Paul Withers
Production Assistant Josh Wright
Onsite Videography Ben Holmes
Graphic Design and Marketing Support Claire Appleby
The podcast booth was constructed with the support of Toby Noyce of Xtreme Graphics
And of course, my thanks goes to my brilliant co-host Kate Turner, the gardener guru.
Thanks for listening.