Later in today's show, we'll be speaking to Matt Bryant from Harvest Pet Products. But first, we're welcoming back to the podcast Steve Harper, MD, for Southern Trident and the chair of the Responsible Sourcing Scheme. So welcome back to The Underground. Last time you were on the podcast, primarily we were talking to you with your role as the chair of the Responsible Sourcing Scheme. But you're also the MD of Southern Trident, as I mentioned, a growing media business. Can you give us a quick overview of the business?

Yeah. Of course. So Southern Trident started really as a coir company. And all of the growing media we did was made from compressed coir, and we used that as the basis behind all the growing media that we've produced. More recently, we've launched our Harmony gardens range, which is a mix of coir as the cool substrate, but using all of the normal conventional things that we'd use, recycled wood fibre, composted bark, green compost. So we’re including those to create a more typical peat free compost.

Can I just ask, how long has Southern Trident been trading for?

We're a relatively young company. I mean, the company started early 2018, so we’re only 6.

Oh gosh, I thought you were much older than that.

No, no. And I've only been with the company, well, I'm coming up to my fourth anniversary in October.

And what were you doing before? I don't think we asked this, did we, on the podcast before?

I've not managed to escape compost and growing medium for 25 years. And I've jumped on both sides of the line. So previously I was working for a company called Greener Gardening Company, which was owned fundamentally by Bord Na Mona. So I'm kind of going between being with peat-free companies to the biggest peat producer. So I can kind of sit on the fence and talk both sides of what's going on.

That's an interesting place to be. Okay. So it's the final day here at GLEE. How has the show gone for you?

The show has gone really well. It's been a really interesting three days. Lots of interesting conversations. We've tried a few things differently that we haven't tried before. We brought a magician with us for the first two days! And he was great because he stood in the aisle, caught up with people, showed them a trick, engaged with them, asked them any qualifying questions, and if they were relevant to us, then he’d introduce them to us. So rather than us having to trip customers over in the aisles, we actually got them coming onto the stand smiling.

Fantastic, that's a good trick.

So can you tell me about any innovations that Southern Trident, I mean, you touched on it briefly with the Harmony gardens. So yeah, tell us about what you brought out this year.

So this year we brought a product out called Sustee, which is an aqua metre, in fact I’ve got one here. So I’ll just show you these guys so you can have a look at them. Sustee is a Japanese invention. One of the biggest problems that we're finding with peat-free compost is consumers. Every peat-free is slightly different, and consumers don't know when to water the plants. They're either overwatering or under watering and a lot of peat free composts look dry on the surface, but actually are plenty wet enough underneath. The Sustee aqua metres, you just literally push them into the soil and leave them in the plant pot. When they're white, the plants need watering. When they're watered, that top area will go blue. And you can see they don’t need watering. It takes all the guesswork away.

Thats so simple!

So I'm just going to describe it. It’s a long, kind of pen like, pointy green thing.

Almost like a thick knitting needle.

Yes, or a crocheting needle. And I suppose it's a bit like a COVID test in a way. You've got the, the paper underneath and that will change colour. That seems so simple, and actually it does work?

It does work, it works really well. We've got them on the stand and we've shown them and actually we've won the best products awards for garden accessories at GLEE this year, which we’re obviously delighted about. So it won that because the judges thought it was a really simple way of solving a massive problem for consumers.

And how long will this last?

So the paper inside it will last about 12 months, but then you could just buy a new paper refill to go in it. So yeah, you wouldn't have to renew the actual item itself at all just the cores.

And are you the first company to bring something like this out?

Into the UK, yeah, that's the first one. And it's so simple. I mean, there's lots of other water based testers that are out there, but they’re either very complicated or very expensive. This is something that’s a sensible price and very simple.

What is the retail price for that?

So there's different sizes of small and large and medium depending on the depth of the pot, that’s the medium and that's retailing around a fiver. But if you're out there buying a really nice specimen house plant, you can spending £100 on it. So no money to look after it properly.

Okay, so I understand that coir is an important ingredient in the growing media formulations that you create. When we last spoke a few months ago, we discussed the fact that coir faces a lot of criticism as an ingredient for a number of reasons. But when looking at the facts, the arguments appear to be a logical fallacy, and the evidence would suggest that coir isn't as bad as it might first appear. Since we last spoke, you've actually visited the production facilities in India, so you have an even greater insight into the subject. Perhaps we can look at the different facets of that subject and we can take them one by one if that’s alright? Yeah. But before we do that, why don't you help us on our understanding, and can you tell us a little bit more about what coir is and why coir is such a useful ingredient in peat free compost mixes?

Of course. So coir is the outer husk of the coconut and ultimately everybody's got to remember the coconut is being harvested for its food source. Okay. So all of the outer husk has been a waste material. And up until about 20 years ago, it just used to get rocked up in waste piles, break down, release methane, 27 times worse than carbon as a greenhouse gas.

27 times worse?

27 times worse. And it didn't have any use. We're now taking that outer husk, and it's being used for lots of different things, obviously longer fibres are used in things like mattresses, brooms, mats. And then we're taking the finer material and that's what we're using as the coir. Some people call it cocoa peat. And we're using that as the growing media.

Okay. So it's a by-product of the coconut industry. So what used to happen, or what happens to the ingredient that doesn't get sold. So it's just landfill effectively?

So, as time is going by, more and more of this material is now being collected. There's a certain amount of it, obviously at the moment we're not using everything that's being produced. And that's where we’re a carbon neutral company we're working how we offset by investing in things like composting programs in India. So any kind of waste material that comes from the coconut industry that still isn't being used is actually going through what we would call a conventional composting system. So it doesn't release methane. That's turning into an organic matter that then can be ploughed into the land over there, which has very poor organic levels. Right. And improve the land across India.

You talk about carbon footprint and net zero. What about, I mean, what people always say is, the carbon footprint, the ingredients you source originate from India so they must travel a long way. How does the transportation of carbon footprint compare to the other ingredients that are being used in peat free?

So one example that I like, that is quite simple is people kind of make this point. It's coming from halfway around the world, which is a fair comment. If you look at the carbon footprint of a cubic metre of coir shipped from the port in India, Tuticorin, across to Liverpool, this taken an example, verses a cubic metre of bark, composted bark being brought down from Scotland to Liverpool by truck. So within a container, because the coir is compressed, you get about 350 cubic metres in a container. On that container ship, there is anywhere between nine and 14,000 containers. So actually if you look at that versus that lorry bringing bark down from Liverpool or down from Scotland to Liverpool, there’s only 60, 65 cubic metres on that lorry. And lorries are really inefficient from a Carbon perspective. So actually, the carbon footprint of those two journeys, coir is about 40% less than bark for those two elements of the journey.

Yeah I think that's an important thing to remember. You know, I think, as I said before, it seems like there's a logical fallacy. So it might appear one way, but actually when you look at the facts, it's slightly different.

It is. And that's why you've got to look at the detail of it.

This is just a silly question, is it just the compost industry that kind of has this criticism? Or, I mean this might sound silly, but I love a Thai green curry, and that's got a lot of coconut milk. I love coconut. I love coconut ice cream. I have a coir mat. Do they have the same kind of criticism that you're bringing this coconut all the way around the world, and you shouldn't be using it? Is it just we're being kind of targeted, like often the horticultural industry is.

I can't really speak to the food industry and where coconuts are used in there because I don't genuinely know. I think where the conversations used to bounce around with the whole palm oil thing, and the rainforest being flattened and they were building these plantations for growing palm oil trees. And I think that kind of criticism is sometimes thrown at coir and coconuts. It’s not true because they're not ripping down forests to plant plantations. But I think people just make these assumptions. So I'm sure within the food industry perhaps that comes up as a thing. And bizarrely, when we talk to customers, they only talk about it with relation to growing media. And I think that's because of the peat issue previously. Nobody ever goes, why are you using coir in your hanging baskets, or your pots, or your coir mats. Nobody ever raises the fact that there’s coir in those. It's only the growing media. So my assumption is we've gone through the whole peat issue. And quite rightly, people are then questioning Coir. I don't have a problem with that, as long as they question it in a sensible conversation and not just go out and make wrong statements, as it were, inaccurate statements.

So, as I mentioned earlier, you've been to India, you've had a look at these factories or production plants where the coir is getting produced. One of the other criticisms that gets levelled at the industry is the working conditions for the people who work in those factories. So can you tell us a little bit about what you witnessed there and how that works?

Absolutely. I mean, as a business, again, we belong to an organisation called Sedex, which basically looks at corporate social responsibility and the working conditions of the people that work on the various sites. And so for us, it's a critical thing. I've now visited numerous factories that we operate from and also other factories we don't operate from, just so that I can get the biggest picture I can. And the working conditions that I've seen have all been really good. I've not seen any issues there. The relationships between, if you like, the management that I've been walking around sites with and the staff all appears to be really good. The working conditions of the staff is very different to the UK, don't get me wrong. But they don't appear to be, poor conditions in any way, shape or form. And they're earning money and it's a massive earner for the population, particularly of South India, if the coconut industry was taken away, the poverty that would come from that would be enormous.

Again, that's something that isn't addressed, is it, at all. Okay. So one of the final criticisms that is kind of thrown at coir is the use of large quantities of water, which as we know, is a precious resource. What can you tell us about that?

Do you know, this has proved to be the biggest misnomer, I think. And what I can't understand is how this hasn't been explained previously, why when I’ve out there and I've spoken to the factories and got to have an understanding of this. You wonder why has this not come to light before? Because it's quite simple. So there’s kind of two areas. So for six months of the year, it's monsoon season in India and you don't need to use any potable water. Trust me there's more than enough coming out the skies to wash the material. So that's fairly straightforward. The water across Tamil Nadu, which is the main coconut producing region in India, is controlled by the government, it’s not controlled by private companies as we've got in the UK, and they broadly break water usage down into three areas: human consumption, agriculture and then the coconut industry. So they've got it. And how they treat the coconut industry, the water there, is what they call commercial water. It's all the same water. Basically they keep an eye on all of the water levels across the Tamil Nadu region. And whilst there is, copious amounts of water, plenty of water, the coconut industry has access to water. The moment water becomes constricted, the coconut industry gets switched off, and they are not allowed to take more water so they can't create the problem. If water becomes even more constrained then agriculture is switched off. So there's always water left, if you like, for the human population. So the water isn't an issue. And in fact, I think even in the responsible sourcing scheme, we have to look now we understand that, about how we measure that more differently. Then one of the other issues that's raised is what happens to all that waste water, and that has been thrown up as a big issue. Again, talking to our main factory over there, all the waste water, all the water that has gone through and washed the coconuts, we use that water to water the coconut plantations. It's absolutely recycled. And some people see that and go, well, doesn't that drive salt levels up? But they've been doing it for decades and there's absolutely no ill effects. And I haven't dug into that specifically, but my assumption would be that because six months of the year there's so much rain coming down, if the salt levels do increase slightly during the spring and summer, it all gets washed back away again when we get through to the autumn and the winter, when the monsoon seasons are around.

That's such an interesting myth to bust, because you know, you get this image of big, greedy corporate companies taking all the water away. Like when you see in Las Vegas, you know, it's a desert. And then you've got these incredible hotels with green lawns that have been watered. And that was kind of the impression that is given, you know, and it's not the case. Is that with every region where coir is produced or just where you get your coir from?

I can’t answer for every region, I can't answer for every country. I've been to Kerala and Tamil Nadu in India, and core areas in there. I have subsequently went back over again briefly and spent a couple of days in Sri Lanka. And I'm still looking at what's happening in Sri Lanka, but my understanding is it's not dissimilar in Sri Lanka. I can’t argue for places like Indonesia, but then we don't take much coir from Indonesia in the UK.

Sounds like a terrible job you've got there, Steve. I've been to Gretna Green to look at peat factories. I'm waiting for the invite to India.

When you came on last time, Steve, you told us that one of the things you do to prepare for GLEE is to go for a 5K run in the mornings. How’s that going?

It's good. The last two mornings I've got up and I felt tired, quite frankly. And I've just literally thrown my running gear on at 6:00 when the alarm's gone off. Gone outside, stumbled outside, but once I’m a K or so into the run, I've kind of woken up, have a bit of music on while I'm running. By the time I come back at the end of the 5K, ready for the day. Yeah, lovely.

Really? I wish I could do that. So have you had a chance to look around GLEE?

A little bit. Not a lot, I have to say. I mean, every year, I'm always disappointed by the fact that I don't get the chance to look around because ultimately, we need to be on the stand talking to customers. So I've only had a brief wander round, so there's probably lots of things that are out there that I haven't seen.

Yeah. So nothing's caught your eye yet.

Nothing hugely has caught my eye. But there's not really because there isn't lots of amazing things going on. It's just I haven't had the chance.

Oh, well, hopefully you might get a bit of time today with when it starts to slow down a bit.

This afternoon's generally relatively quiet. So I may get a wander around then.

Yeah, well all the all the best for that and the rest of the show. And I think that's a good place to leave. Thanks so much Steve.

And now for our conversation with Matt Bryant from Harvest Pet Products. Good morning Matt!

Good morning Matt, lovely to meet you!

Great to have you on, Matt. Can you just tell us a little bit about what Harvest Pet Products. Oh, that's a bit of a tongue twister. Can you tell us a bit about what it is Harvest Pet Products do?

You should try having it in an email address. Yeah. So Harvest is a family business and it's 25 years old this year. A first time at GLEE. Yeah, first time. Our first ever exhibition.

Really? Oh my goodness, in 25 years?

In 25 years. So, it's a family business. And the history comes from my mum. She had all different pet shops in the town that we lived in. And was into all the animal rescues. We had Shetland ponies. Monkeys. Yeah.

Wow, monkeys?

Monkeys. We had monkeys. Yeah. We had two, only for a couple of days.

Oh, okay. So those were rescue?

They were all rescues.

Sounds very Gerald Durrell.

I was thinking Michael Jackson, but let’s go with Gerald Durrell.

Yeah, so my experiences have been spending most weekends with a single mom working in pet shops and, you know, in the community and working with people. And, unfortunately, it come to the end of the pet shop journey. And she sort of had this idea that wild bird was in pet shops, and it's in garden centres, but it's not in retail. And she had an old friend that worked at Wilkinsons. And it was, what do you think to selling wild bird and it was like, you know, I'll give you 30 bags, you know, I'll give you an opportunity. And they sold out within, half an hour. And he was on the phone. Yeah, we took it down in the back of the car, and it just went on to, like, can I have another pallet?

That's a great story. And were you able to supply? Because often it's the supply and demand that can be an issue.

Yeah. So as a family and as a business, we just went above and beyond with everything because we asked about what's the next thing you can do? And it was like, okay, how do we do that? And whether it was going into the B and Q centre and getting drainpipes and making trees, anything that we could. But we had the knowledge of working in the pet shops to know what was the right thing to put in and how to do it and present. And within two years I was vendor management, for Wilkinsons, with the wild bird for Harvest, and we were doing 10 to 11 lorry loads a week and it was the start of our journey.

That's amazing.

So yeah, really within two years. So you've been trading at that kind of size for about 20 years?

20 years, yeah definitely. And then people started to come, I always say Harvest has been the best kept secret because we're in all the stores, all the retailers. But you wouldn’t know because we've been in other people's own brand. So, we do all of Tesco's own brand wild bird. And they come to us, great partners, and Sainsbury's. Morrisons. You know the original factory shop, Poundland and just starting to work with other retailers and it's always been about the quality and the service. But as we started to work with the retail in terms of the blue chip ones, it becomes that you have to have accreditations, have to have standards. So our guys all used to just come in in whatever they were wearing and we had to step up even little things. So we had to become BRC accredited.

And what's BRC?

BRC. So it's a national there. So it makes sure that you're working to the British standards for manufacturing. Very much more in human food. So it's not really required in the wild bird industry. But we get measured on human food in the retail because the products go in the shopping bag. And it passes through your kitchen.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay. So what has brought you here to GLEE? Are you looking at going as your own brand now as Harvest in garden centres? Is that what you aim is?#

I think, over the last two years, I had a sabbatical from the business, for a little while. And then I was asked to go back in and lead the business on behalf of the family. And one of the things I wanted to do was create an environment for people to excel. And doing that, I had to bring some people in that have worked at bigger businesses. To help me on the journey because 25 years, I know everything about everything Harvest. So I wanted to lean on people that could make us better. And we sat there and we was like, what else could we do? What do we want to do? What do we want to fund? And we started creating brands, but they were brands that all the staff came in with name suggestions. And we voted on it until we got, it got quite close to some real names that I'm not sure about. You know, the younger generation, like Angry Bird wanted Happy Bird, right? Everybody's had an input.

Birdy Mc Bird Face.

We've had. Yes. We we've had all sorts, but they came up with, some really good brands that match with what we do. And, you know, we really work on using the finest ingredients in what we do. Yeah, that makes us different. And as a family, we’ve just invested. That's all we've known. So, you know, we are the one stop shop for everything manufactured in wild bird food.

Well, tell you what, let's just talk a little bit about wild birds because obviously you wrote a blog for GLEE which we've had a good read of. And so, wild bird populations are suffering. So can you just tell us a bit about that? Just a small topic there.

Just to say I think there's certainly one of the things that we talk about and we're just partnering up with some charities and things, is that wild bird is, we do beef suet products, and my nanna always used to tell me how she used to put bacon rind in the garden.

My grandma used to do that.

Yeah. And it's a very traditional sector. And it's had its moments where, but I think if you've seen BBC with Springwatch, Winter watch, they've really helped now bringing in the younger generation. So the average age of wild bird buyers used to be 55 plus. People that can’t have cats and dogs that were at home. They are real company. You know, they are part of the family. But now, with the retail, I do believe that retail have played a big part in that. I think social media, being able to get out there and do things to it, show why feed them. And that's really helped.

So why is it important to feed wild birds?

So wild birds, I believe, bring a lot of joy. That brings self-esteem, that mental. But they also, whatever they drop, they bring natural sort of, they change the ground, the forest. And you get the ants that come through there. And that helps you there. And, so it's important there's lots of different key things.

So it's important for biodiversity then.

Yeah, definitely. There's things that can help, where you don't have to put use of fertiliser as much if we’re helping keeping the birds fed. It goes there's so many ways I want to go off the topic of anything. It's like it can be if we can help the birds and the seeds, and then we get more of the sort of the natural insects that can help.

So in a way, it's a two way process. So we're helping the wild birds who are suffering. We know their numbers in decline. Is it really important to feed all throughout the year, not just kind of in the winter?

So it used to be used to be that everybody just thought that you fed in the winter and that you didn’t feed. Now it's important to feed all year round, but in different times what you feed. So the birds in the winter, they need the high energy, they need that fat content. You know, the feathers are very oil rich, and they need that fat. And they need more energy to survive through the night. You know, it's harder for them to fly. I'm sure we all need that extra cup of coffee sometimes on a cold morning.

So, with your products, do you make that clear? Which products are good for different times of year?

Yes, definitely. It's something that we do. We try and educate. And we've recently doing that by trying to use social media and working at different ways that we can do that and with partners. So right we're looking to work with somebody to going to schools. So we're trying to do that. All the children have these wildlife sections now in school, and we think that we can get in there and make a difference because they’re the future people that are going to feed the birds. But it is, but it's not as well as winter there’s spring when it's fledgling season. And then it's about getting the peanuts that the mum and dad birds can carry back to the nest. So there's different types and feeds, but it's important and we try to sell that on all the packaging.

So with peanuts though, you need to be careful, don’t you, how you are feeding them. So you need to, you don't want the adult bird feeding a whole peanut to the fledglings, do you?

For the people that sell the peanuts, the most important thing is the aflatoxin. If we get that wrong, then-

The what?

The aflatoxin. And it can go up, depending on where you buy it from in the world, and how long you store it, it can go up. But what we do is we make sure we've got a standard and we test when they come on site. So we test all our materials to make sure. But that's important because that can poison the birds as well.

Right. So are there different types of food for different types of birds?

Yes there is. I think it becomes more of a hobby. It's where people want to see more of the robins in the garden. Or they want to see the blue tits. So, yes, people start looking to attract the birds. And I think as you start feeding the birds, they become spoilt. Yeah, mine certainly are in the garden. You know, we've got so many feeders through there that I've now had to create a section for the pigeons. You know, just to leave the other birds away.

Have you got anything to get seagulls away? I live by the coast and it's just seagulls.

No, afraid not, but yes, there is. That's what makes it great about that. If there is people that are doing it, I call them the twitchers. The real bird feeders. And if they're really looking to attract that type of bird in, then they can use that food.

And you have kind of good point of sale, do you, to help people navigate that?

Yeah, definitely. We're just creating a story book that can go with that could really why you feed them and where you feed them. You know, because that's important. Because they are animals of prey. When they come in the garden, the lower down the ground is, the less they're going to be tempted by the food there. Yes, cats, and dogs. They like a chase.

They do like to chase, don’t they? And that obviously will use up more energy from the bird that’s suffering anyway, and stress.

So what sort of numbers are we talking about, different types of birds? Different breeds of birds?

There’s about 140 species.

That visit the British garden?

Yes they do. And we probably don't see all them in the garden. But I think if you ask people, I'm not sure if they get past, sort of naming 10. And that's the education part. And the more we educate, the more people understand what we've got to do. Yeah. And that's a key vision of what we want to do at Harvest as well.

So we know that the insect population is really important and it's under threat as well. So why should we be encouraging birds into the garden, you know, if we're trying to protect the insects because they're important pollinators.

Phil is not a gardener, he’s getting there.

It becomes that topic through there. And like I say, you'll see like no-mess mixes where they won't grow again, but birds don't clean up after themselves, which I think is really good for the nature because what falls on the floor then grows and then it creates habitat for the insects and more insects in the garden, which then will go onto the plants that will help there, then hopefully you don’t need to use much fertiliser.

I think what you're trying to say there Phil, aren’t you, is we're been told to encourage more birds into the garden to help with getting rid of slugs and aphids and all that. But then there's also this other school of thought that says, stop looking at insects as pests and encourage them. I'm from the school where if I've got some crops that are being decimated by insects, then I want to bring something in that's going to control those insects. Yeah, I think there is a balance, isn't there? And bringing birds in does help with, you know, slugs and snails and other pests.

It’s a natural source of food for the birds. And especially during the summer time, this is the quiet time. The grounds are soft so the birds can eat the insects through there, and berries on the trees. But. Yeah.

Are we in danger of overfeeding? I mean, I know you said you spoil your birds. Is there a worry that we can sometimes, like, kill with kindness? So, you know, if you move or go on holiday and you forget to feed. Are we teaching the birds not to be able to get their own food? Or is it just it's a really good supplement.

I don't think there is an overfeeding. I think when we talked about 140 species there and when the ground's hard, they can’t get there. So it's the survival of that part. Yeah. So that.

Yeah, we’re just helping with that. Absolutely. So apart from feeding, what else should we be doing to encourage, these lovely wild birds into our garden, Matt?

Yeah. You you've seen people where they talk about not cutting the hedges and not cutting the trees down, giving them natural areas where they can nest or they can feel safe and creating that environment for them. Plenty of water. Birds need water.

That's really important, isn't it?

It is. And it's got to be fresh water. And in the winter we've got to make sure in the mornings that if there’s ice there, that we can break it up. And cleaning the feeders as well. That's very important.

That's crucial. And what should we be cleaning our feeders with?

So it's a great topic. There's a lady just over there and yes, she's got a stand. I should give a shout out. But we talked about it yesterday. So at home, we use hot water to clean through there and we stay away from chemicals. Thats our choice, but there is that chance we will leave things in there.

Like a residue. Yeah, so if you've got a biodegradable washing up liquid, could you use something like that?

Definitely. Yeah. It's always made me sort of, you know, you wash it afterwards.

And why is that so important to keep them clean?

Because the bacteria can grow in there. And then it's like ourselves when children or anything eat bacteria that gets in the stomach, they'll become poorly. These birds need to be treated, just like the cats and things that we do at home that we treat as part of the family.

Yeah. So you don't just keep topping up on top of the top of the old food, kind of if it's not a bit mushy, get rid of that and start again.

You should work on, would you eat that? You know, if you could work, that's the best way of doing it.

That's a good rule of thumb that.

I must admit I've seen some very interesting plants growing out of my garden. And you think, well, where did that come from? And you realise it's when I’ve emptied the bird feeder. And I've got barley now.

We’ve had Niger because the Niger seed just would go everywhere.

Yes. I've got a friend and he's got artificial grass. Not good for the nature. And he had bird feeders and he brought me in. He was like I've got fake grass but I've got like, I've got plants growing, I've got everything else, and all these bird feeders are hanging over the grass and it's dropping.

Of course, you know, things are going to grow in artificial grass. If there's a tiny bit of soil they're going to grow.

So, Matt, do you have a favourite bird that visits your garden?

And I say that I’m quite fond of the pigeons when they come, I find that they start following me.

I love a wood pigeon.

When I go for my dog walk, they start following me, I’m sure of that now.

I guess you got a pocket full of bird seed.

Yeah, yeah, shoes, everything. But it's the robin. It is the robin.

The gardener's friend.

Yeah, it's the first bird that sort of, my mom, would talk about. And your nanas. It was there. And it's like that British bird isn’t it? Yeah, it’s very fun.

Iconic. And they're just lovely. I'm a blackbird girl. I do love a blackbird. And I love their song as well. What about you Phil? You got a favourite one?

I like a long tail tit. We have long tail tits that come into our garden. They'll go around in a little gang of them. They are great.

So you said this is your first time at GLEE. How have you found the experience?

I found this podcast really good in the build up. So, like, I brought a bag full of shoes for every day, trainers. And I was telling my boys, and as children, they don't listen. So one like wore his shoes, he’s not make that mistake again. And the other son came yesterday and he was getting changed with his shoes in the car park before we come in here. But it was good to see the different people coming in. The GLEE app has been fantastic to reach out and, you know, it's not just the selling people that come. There's different people of all walks of life. It is the networking and you know what? It is the learning as well. We come with no expectations. We wanted to enjoy the moment. We had a fantastic first day. And you know, I just did the second day. We just get 1% better enjoy it that much more. And we was on such a high yesterday I really enjoyed it.

That's great. So found a real buzz have you?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I want to do exhibitions. I was telling the guys earlier, I want to do one every week.

Oh, no.

Oh, that'd be exhausting.

Oh, I find it so much fun.

So you come again?

Yeah, 100%. We've already signed up for next year. We think it's fantastic.

Oh, that's great. Good endorsements.

What a good place to leave it. Thank you so much Matt for coming and speaking to us and, telling us more about the wild bird feed and what Harvest does.

Thank you so much.