Kate:
So, talking of interesting chats, Phil, I've got a bit of a humdinger guest for our listeners this week. And actually, today, I — on my own — am going to be interviewing the rather enigmatic Phil Wright of WrightObara. Many of our listeners know Phil as The Underground podcast host, editor and all-round good guy. But I want to delve a little bit deeper into who Phil is and what WrightObara does, because obviously Glee is very pertinent to what you do.
Today we are going to be having a chat about the whole concept of brand and marketing, what that means to you and how you can help businesses with that. You recently wrote a very long article — I don't mean that in a bad way, but it is a long article.
It's a fascinating article, but it's about how people choose. So let's just start. Phil, tell us a little bit about who you are and what it is you do.
Phil:
Sure. So it does feel a little bit weird being on this side of the conversation, but there we go. Right. So, I mean, I am a co-founder of WrightObara, as you said. We're a creative marketing agency that specialises in products, selling products into retail, but then also helping those products sell once they're in retail stores. And we specialise in home and garden.
So hence the podcast. You know, I am absolutely fascinated by the garden sector, the garden industry. I don't profess to be the greatest gardener or understand everything about gardening at all, but I find the industry endlessly fascinating. And so, you know, that's why we do it. And so what do we do? So as a creative marketing agency, we often get briefs asking us to do packaging or create a campaign or presentations, that sort of thing.
And sure, you know, you want them to look nice, but I don't know, I'm a bit of a thinker and I don't like the thought of just making something look nice. I want it to be really effective. And so over the years, many years, I'm very old. Over the years, I've done quite a lot of research into why we choose, why people choose what they choose, when they go into the shops or when they're sat at home. What is it that makes them choose that product over another one?
Kate:
So we're talking brands. We're talking brands and products and why people are drawn to that washing up liquid rather than that one.
Phil:
Exactly that. So, yeah, I think understanding that can only make the work that we do better. I wrote this article — as you mentioned, a very long article — really to pull together lots of different things that I've read and understood. I've got a lot of experience of looking at these things over a number of years, and I was trying to pull all that together and create some sort of cohesive thought around it.
Really.
Kate:
Okay, well, let's just cut to the chase a bit for you in your article. It all started with an iPod, which obviously gives your age away a little bit. But tell me about that.
Phil:
Yeah. So I think it's interesting that every now and again in your life, there's a moment or an experience that just sticks with you. Well, it does with me anyway. It was back in about 2005 and the iPod nano had just been launched. It was in the era of the Apple silhouette adverts.
Kate:
Yeah.
Phil:
And I wanted an iPod. I really wanted one. It was like I didn't just want it, I needed it. It was a visceral experience that I had. And I can remember walking down the street, seeing a big billboard with one of their ads on, and thinking, why is this affecting me so much?
Kate:
And you were an adult. We're not talking about you as a teenager. You are a family man.
Phil:
So at the time, you know, I'd got two young boys and I had a ten minute commute to work in the car. Honestly, I couldn't even think when I'd get time to listen to it.
Kate:
Didn't need it is what we're saying. We didn't need it.
Phil:
Well.
Need is an interesting one, but I couldn't think of a time when I'd actually get a chance to listen to it. But I absolutely wanted it, and that really stuck with me. So it was like, well, why is that? And then I did get one. There are all sorts of rational reasons, you know: its beautiful design, it's very easy to use.
There's the classic Apple line, ‘A thousand songs in your pocket’, which is, you know, a great line and a great way of selling this device — much better than all the MP3 players that were around at the time talking about gigabytes of storage, or probably megabytes back then, and all that sort of thing.
But there was this desire and that was really interesting. And that was the thing which stuck with me. And I did a lot of research on what that was all about, and it came down to a gut feeling. It was like something which I couldn't put my finger on what that thing was, but I knew that I really wanted it, and that really informed and led to me looking at how we buy in general, really.
Kate:
So you're talking about we buy irrationally. There's no real reason that you needed that iPod. But it's interesting actually, Phil because on the flip side, I loved all the adverts. I loved the campaign. I thought it was beautiful, but I was terrified of it. I did not want one, but I know, being a bit of a technophobe, I was so worried about it all going wrong.
So I was very, very late to the party when it comes to iPods. But again, that's a kind of irrational fear as well. So, do we all make irrational choices? Are we all irrational? Are we really that irrational when it comes to making choices?
Phil:
That's a really good question. And the answer is no. So rational versus irrational is probably the wrong distinction. We are all different, as you've just said. You know we're different, but everybody's different. Everybody thinks of things differently and comes at things differently. I think, I mean, I'm quite a creative person. I work in a creative industry in marketing.
I ran a studio with a team of designers and a team of developers. You could not get two more different types of people. Designers wear their hearts on their sleeves; they're very emotional, emotionally led. Developers, on the flip side, are very rational. They like to think things through, they're very practical, they like things ordered, they do their research and don't make rash decisions.
But we're all different. And, you know, some people are a mixture of those things.
Kate:
Are you a mixture of both of those things?
Phil:
I think it's pretty safe to say I probably am, yeah. But we think about things differently too. One person might choose a car and go through all sorts of research: looking at the specs, getting the brochure, looking online, going on comparison sites, watching all sorts of YouTube videos, that sort of thing. And then someone else might like the red one.
Kate:
That's me.
Phil:
It's cute. It's red. Great. That's what I want.
Kate:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you're basically saying some people are just more emotional than others when they make their decisions?
Phil:
I think emotions play a big part, but it is much more complicated than that. There are different elements that go into what actually drives that emotion as well. I don't want to get too academic, but there's an academic term: heuristics. Psychologists and academics who study this sort of thing call these sorts of gut feelings heuristics.
And it's basically a mental shortcut or a rule of thumb which guides your decision-making. Not completely, but it plays a huge part. That gut feeling is shaped by all sorts of things. So let's just take my iPod example for a moment. You know me, I'm not somebody with dreadlocks who's going to be whizzing about on my skateboard.
Kate:
Oh, I'd love to see that.
Phil:
However, that energy and dynamism reflected in those adverts really resonated with me and made me think, oh, that's something…

Kate:
I want that.

Phil:
I want that feeling — not necessarily actually wanting to learn to skateboard or breakdance or that sort of thing. But then our experiences with the brand also come into play and feed into that.
What our friends say and what we read about the products all feed into that overarching gut feeling — the sort of mental shortcut we make when we think about that brand or product.
Kate:
Yeah. So you're talking about brands in a very different way from how I would talk about a brand. It's interesting, isn't it? Would you describe to me what you think — or, you know, what a brand is?
Phil:
Yeah. It's an interesting question. I think lots of people get hung up on the logo, but it's so much more than that. It's a really complex thing, actually. My current definition is that a brand is the accumulated effect of every promise a business makes and all the experiences we have with that brand, melded together and distilled into that gut feeling.
Kate:
Okay, that's quite a big thing, isn't it?
Phil:
It is, and it's shaped by all sorts of things: the product, the price, the packaging, the service you get, other people, your sales experience, customer experience, after-sales experience, communication and the reputation of the brand. All that stuff goes together, is melded together and creates that feeling. And that feeling, I think, is actually what you describe the brand is.
A brand can do a lot to try and mould the way you think, but actually we all think about brands differently and it's as simple as that really.
Kate:
So what you're saying is it's not just about having a nice logo, a nice design identity. The obvious ones come to mind for me, Coca-Cola and Nike, all those kind of things. But even small companies can have a brand personality. Is that what you're saying? Is there a difference between that?
Phil:
No, absolutely.
I think, actually, for small companies, working on your brand — how people perceive you — is really important, because that's one of the best things you've got to make yourself stand out and be distinctive. I'll give you a little example. You said Coca-Cola; I have a really interesting sort of relationship — or thought — about Oatly, the brand.
Kate:
Oatly, the milk, the...
Phil:
Oatly, the soy milk, or whatever it is.
Kate:
It is oat milk.
Phil:
Probably is, isn't it?
Kate:
That brand personality would be a bit skewed, wouldn't it?
Phil:
And that says it all. Okay, because I've never bought the product, but I have a mental or a gut instinct, a mental picture of what that brand's all about. So I've seen their advertising, I've seen their brand, their packaging, I've seen articles written about them. All that information comes in and is sort of distilled together. I'm maybe a visual person, maybe put a little bit more emphasis on some of the visuals that I see, but I get a sense of what that company is all about and what their products are all about.
Now, that might all change if I were to buy a product, taste it and go, oh my goodness, this is horrible. Suddenly, my experience shoots up to the top and totally dispels everything the brand has tried to get me to think up until that point. I'm sure I wouldn't think that if I tasted it. Please don’t sue me.

Kate:
But you might.
Phil:
You never know
Kate:
You might not like it. You might be a cow’s-milk man through and through. You know, you might not like oat milk, but...
Phil:
So it is, you know, the experiences you've had. You don't actually have to have purchased a product to have a feeling or a sense about a brand.
Kate:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, interesting. You talk about strategy a lot, and I hear it talked about a lot. You talk about how we choose and then you move on to strategy. I see that word everywhere: ‘Oh, you've got to have a strategy — strategy, strategy, strategy.’ Why is it so important?
And also kind of what makes a good strategy. Because if everyone's talking about it, is it one of those things that people just pay lip service to? So tell us a bit more about how you think.
Phil:
Yeah. So I like this description of strategy: it is creative decision-making. When you're a brand or a product and you do your research — whether it's commissioned research, you've worked in the industry for a while, you've asked your friends or whatever the research is — you get answers.
You get them from all sorts of different sources, and then you analyse what that data is telling you. Lots of businesses will then go, well, this is what the data is saying; that's our strategy. But I think that underplays the value of strategy. I don't think that's what strategy is. I think strategy is taking that data in and then making a creative leap — a decision on how we're going to approach whatever it is.
So that's why — well, cars are an interesting one, because you have cars pitched at different people and different ways in which they talk about the car. That applies to just about any product. You have different ways of talking about things. And you don't want to be wacky about it.
There has to be a decision, and this is a rational decision, so there has to be some logic in it. But a strategy might sound, when you first hear it, a bit weird. I was writing something else the other day and talking about Liquid Death. Do you know Liquid Death?
So Liquid Death, you might not come across it. So Liquid Death is actually canned water.
Kate:
Canned water. Okay. So I thought it was my dad's homemade wine.
Phil:
No, but it's a really interesting strategy. The guy who came up with the idea was at a festival watching some bands. They were rock bands and obviously had a persona they wanted to get across, but they also didn't want to get drunk on stage because they wanted to be able to focus on playing.
They didn't want to get too high on caffeine or whatever either. So they were getting cans of energy drinks, having those and then refilling them with water, because a bottle of water just doesn't cut it on a rock stage, but a can of energy drink did. The guy watching this suddenly had an epiphany and went, well, you know what?
Why don't we make water that looks cool to that audience? It might not appeal to you, Kate — I don't think it probably would, something called Liquid Death. It might appeal to Joey, your son, who plays in a band. So you know your audience, and that's a really good example of how strategy can influence how you go to market.
Kate:
Okay, okay.
Phil:
And does that make sense?
Kate:
Yeah, it does. It’s something I struggle with a little bit. In fact, I was buying a coffee at my favourite beachfront café yesterday. In the fridge they had cartons of water which I hadn’t seen before — like little orange-juice cartons, but with water. They called it water, but I was actually quite drawn to that because I thought, it’s not plastic, it’s a carton.
And I just, I quite like that. And I can imagine the slightly more eco-conscious or environmentally conscious people might be more interested, you know, if you've gone out and you've forgotten your water or whatever. That's quite a good thing. And I think it looks quite good.
Phil:
And I think that's a really important part of this conversation: understanding who you're talking to. As we said, we're all different. We're human, we all have different values, and we all think about things differently and look at the world completely differently. So if you can talk to a set of people who share your worldview...
Kate:
Yeah, and Values.
Phil:
Yeah, that is really important. And it's a great way of being able to start that conversation as a brand.
Kate:
Yeah. So what I see as almost the opposite of strategy is creativity. And having worked in a marketing team, you know, it always comes back to strategy and money and costs and things. But you're saying that creativity is the silver bullet. Why? Why do you believe that?
Phil:
So I pinched the phrase ‘silver bullet’ from my favourite TV show, The West Wing. It's an Americanism, I think, because a bullet is to do with guns and things, which we're not so big on over here, but...
Kate:
As in, it hits its mark.
Phil:
Yeah, exactly. And it will solve everything.
Kate:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Not just kill a werewolf.
Phil:
Absolutely not. But I don't think creativity can repair a bad product or a weak strategy. That's not what it does. It can help you get noticed, understood and remembered, and create that feeling we were talking about — that gut feeling. That's where creativity really comes into its own. It's the biggest shortcut to helping tell that story.
And storytelling is — I mean, we talk about it in our business a lot. It's something I'm passionate about and do lots of research on. Storytelling is central to all sorts of creativity and being able to take a product to market. And actually, this is an interesting point: when you talk to people about storytelling, especially brand storytelling, I think people think, oh, you know, it's a founder's story, isn't it?
You know, he was born in this place and did this, and while he was growing up he learned this, and blah, blah, blah. But storytelling can be condensed down to a headline and a sub-headline. It doesn't need to be this full-blown narrative novel. You can create a story really succinctly by sharing what the problem is, what the promise of the product is and how your customer — the consumer — is going to get a better outcome.
Kate:
And would you say that kind of shortening of everything is so much more important now with the advent of social media and, you know, people's attention spans and being so much shorter now, people like a story, but it's got to be quick. How has that kind of shaped the industry, would you say?
Phil:
Massively. I think there are trends which also shape that, but if you read up about good copywriting, one of the first things you'll learn about is this brilliant campaign. I've got a feeling it was in America in the 1930s — a long time ago — but it might have been the 1950s. Anyway, that's not important.
Kate:
Olden days.
Phil:
The olden days. Exactly. The line is, ‘They laughed when I sat down at the piano, but when I started to play...’ And, you know, that's a story, and it's great. I gather the campaign was tremendously successful, but that's of its time. You could not get away with a headline like that nowadays.
You know, it's just too long.
Kate:
Maybe we should bring it back.
Phil:
Well, I like reading, so yes, I'd be very happy with a bit longer — more words to play with.
Kate:
So Phil, let me just try and bring it back around to the sector that we talk to, which is the garden industry. So how can this help if I'm selling a bag of compost or a garden hose? Let's maybe not a garden hose at the moment with all the hosepipe bans. But you know, what I see is fairly mundane products.
How can this help?
Phil:
Well, all those principles still apply. I mean, you're right, you know, you're not going to have this desire for a bag of compost that I felt.
Kate:
Well, I do.
Phil:
Okay. Maybe you do.
Kate:
I'm not the best example.
Phil:
Compost can still connect to emotions, even if it doesn't create that really strong, passionate desire for a product. It can still fulfil an emotional need. And I think when we talk about emotions and emotional pull within products, lots of people hear that and think, oh, you're naturally thinking big emotion, you know?
But actually emotions come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. And so that emotion might be confidence. Is this product going to work for me? You know, it might be pride. So this product, this compost will help me grow the best vegetables, for example. Or, you know, the most beautiful pots that I can have on my patio.
It can be anticipation, because obviously gardening isn't an instant-results hobby. So maybe it could be that feeling of anticipation, and avoiding disappointment as well. All those things are emotions, and there are things you can do when you're selling your product to try and convey that as well. So it's not just a case of saying ‘peat-free compost’. Peat-free is interesting; it aligns with my values.
Kate:
Yeah, yeah.
Phil:
But it might be that you want to have some sort of guarantee. Miracle-Gro put their guarantee on the pack this year. That's a way of reassuring customers that this product will work for them, so it takes some of the guesswork out of, ‘Which product do I use?’ So that's quite interesting.
Kate:
And obviously pretty pictures are going to help.
Phil:
Oh absolutely. Yeah.
Kate:
So you've got Durstons new marketing campaign.
Phil:
Oh, I love Durstons new branding.
Kate:
Yeah, really pretty. And it grabs your attention. And others are much bolder, much more obvious: you buy this, you can grow big tomatoes, that kind of thing.
Phil:
Inspiring imagery is really important. And the same thing might be true of hosepipes as well. You mentioned hosepipes, but, you know, ease of use: is it going to be easy to store? Is it flexible? All those sorts of things come into play. And it's not just price.
Price is always important.
Kate:
But that was going to be my next question, especially within, you know, we're being told we're in a cost of living crisis. Are we not just motivated by saving money at the moment? Is that not what it's all about, or is it more than just that? Would you say, is it still the emotion? Does that still draw us? I mean, I still see lots of brand new BMWs and brand new Range Rovers out there, and people are still buying branded clothing. So obviously it's not just about price.
Phil:
No, it really isn't just about price. And I think, as I've said, we are complex creatures and we all think about things differently. But that emotion we feel towards a product or a brand really does trump a lot of things. In fact, this is something we do quite a lot. I'll go back to my iPod example very quickly.
So I said that I had this feeling, this gut feeling that I really wanted the iPod. Afterwards, I post-rationalised all the sensible reasons for wanting it, you know, so and I think we do that an awful lot. You know, you want the car, you really want the car, and then you'll post-rationalise based on the fuel economy or the safety features or, you know, the boot size because we'll be able to fit all the things in when we go on holiday or the dog or whatever it is, you know.
Kate:
You make it fit you, don't you? You make it fit what you want.
Phil:
We don't always do that. But I had a conversation the other day with somebody about this very thing. They were trying to come up with an example of a generic product that you don't have an emotional connection with, which is fair enough. I think there are plenty of generic products — widgets, whatever they are — that you have absolutely no emotional connection to.
I get that. The product they specified when we were chatting was washing-up liquid.
Kate:
I disagree.
Phil:
I then gave the example of smol. That's a really interesting example because it's a values-led worldview, a personal narrative you're telling. You're saying, that product connects with me, and I think we share the same values. I'm now emotionally invested in that product.
Maybe — I mean, I don't know — maybe it doesn't work as well. Maybe it does work as well. But if I put that product on the side of the sink, I'm saying something about how I want other people to see me and who I am. You might think that's showing off. That's not necessarily what I mean, but it's reaffirming who you are. Yeah.
Kate:
These are my values. This is what I think. This is my worldview.
Phil:
Exactly that.
Kate:
You know, I want you to be the same as me. Yeah. No, I get that, I get that. So, Phil, in your article, you make the point that it’s not just about shoppers choosing. And I don’t quite get that because, when I go and shop, I make a choice.
Tell us what you mean by that.
Phil:
Yeah, you're not wrong there, Kate. It is about shoppers. But there are two stories. There are two people — or two groups of people, I should say — that, when you've got a product, you need to convince to buy your product. The shopper is the one everybody thinks about.
Kate:
Shopper journey and all that kind of.
Phil:
Yeah, absolutely, Kate. But you also have to convince the buyer at the retailer, and they have a different set of criteria they're looking at.
Kate:
So we're talking from the brand's perspective here, right?
Phil:
Yeah, absolutely. If you're talking to a retail buyer and you've got your product and want them to get it ranged in the store, they're going to have a set of criteria. There's the commercial reasoning: are they going to get enough margin from the product? What's the rate of sale?
How's the supply going to be? What sort of launch support are you going to offer? All that sort of thing. What's the size of the opportunity before me? I think most people will go, yeah, okay, I get that. That's rational decision-making — very logical. That's how buyers work.
But buyers are humans, and they also need to have an interest in the product. They need to be curious about it, or you need to get them curious about your product. Show them why your product is exciting.
Kate:
Why they should stock your product.
Phil:
Exactly. What's a customer going to like about that product? So I think there's also some emotion you can get into those buyer presentations that you’re doing too.
Kate:
So would you say getting the buyer to invest in it is more important than getting the shopper? Or is it the same thing?
Phil:
Well, I wouldn't say it's more important. I'd say it's as important.
Kate:
But aren't they all about price point? Aren't buyers all about how much it's going to cost them?
Phil:
I think they're all about the commercial opportunity. I agree, that's the logical bit. But, as we said, you can post-rationalise all that logic afterwards if you've already made some sort of gut-feeling decision. And I think lots of experts — and we all do this anyway — will have gut feelings when they see a product.
They'll just instantly know something. There's an interesting book by Malcolm Gladwell called Blink that talks a lot about experts making instant decisions, and they can't necessarily reason why they made that decision. But once you look into it, there are lots of reasons — micro-signals they're picking up on — and they just go, oh yeah, no, that's going to work really well.
It's that instant reaction. Gut reaction.
Kate:
And that goes with so many things, doesn’t it?
Phil:
Oh, completely.
Yeah. It's not just related to product selling — it’s everything.
Kate:
Is it not a bit about manipulation? Are you not manipulating the shopper a bit? I mean, you talk about it in your article, but the John Lewis commercial — for me, that's an example of somebody going too far with the emotions. I find now the adverts just annoy me now because they say nothing about the shop and what it does; they just irritate me.
But are we not in danger of being a little bit manipulated to buy more stuff, when really we should maybe be kind of reining in just constant consumerism?
Phil:
Well, I'll tell you a little story about that. When I was 16 or 17, I studied graphic design at college and had to do a work placement. I went to an ad agency and worked there for a week. It was really fun; I enjoyed the experience and was really into the design stuff. But I came away from that experience — and I wasn't commercially aware at the time, I was 17 — and I came away from it, and I thought pretty much what you've just expressed there. I was like, advertising's all about selling people stuff they don't need.
And it put me off. In fact, it put me off so much that I went to university to study architecture because I didn't want to be involved in that sort of manipulation.
Kate:
Okay, interesting.
Phil:
However, I think you can manipulate people. But the very, very best marketing and communications find a truth within a product, accentuate it and find the emotional connection to it. They don't artificially manufacture it. That's why I think it's justifiable; I don't think that's manipulation.
Kate:
Okay. For me it was always Guinness. I loved the — I mean, my dad made TV commercials, and the Guinness adverts, for me... I drink Guinness; I still drink it, I love it. But it was so cool, and I wanted to be a cool drama student, so I really thought drinking Guinness was going to make me look cool.
I really bought into that lifestyle.
Phil:
That would have been in the days of the Rutger Hauer adverts.
Kate:
That's right. Yeah. And they were great adverts. They really got to your heart, didn't they?
Phil:
Yeah.
Kate:
Oh, and I'm still drinking and I still think it's a great product, I really do.
Phil:
Absolutely. And they've done — I mean, they have done so well over the years. They have a very distinctive product. Black and white. And play on that a lot. Even with the new Guinness 0.0, the product's brilliant, and they've marketed it so effectively — so well. Hats off to them.
Kate:
Yeah. They got a lot of money behind them.
Phil:
They have, they have.
Kate:
Right, so let's round this up. If our listeners could take away just one thing from this conversation to help their products, what would it be?
Phil:
Okay, so I think the first thing would be: don't assume that explaining your product is going to be enough. Lots of people will say, oh, we need to have this on the front, this on the front, this on the front, this on the front.
And it just gets so confusing for the shopper. That's not just a design thing — it is partly a design thing — but I think good marketing should do much more than help your product to be understood. It should make your target audience, your customer, the consumer, want that product — have that desire.
Kate:
And to do that, it's best to get in touch with a company like WrightObara. Would that be true...?
Phil:
Well, I wouldn't say no, I wouldn't say no.
Kate:
But there is truth in that, isn't there? A company might seem like a big expense to start with, but at the end of the day it's going to generate more sales. If you have a good company behind you that knows what it's doing and knows what it's talking about with marketing, I think you've proven today how important good creative marketing is to a product, and to understanding what people want from their products.
Phil:
I'm so pleased you thought that, Kate.
Kate:
Well, no. No, it is true. It's absolutely true — and so is how important a good strategy is. Often the people who make the products aren't necessarily the ones able to do that. It is worth spending that bit of money to really push that product.
Phil:
I think you're absolutely right. I couldn't agree more. I think lots of people settle for second best.
Kate:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Phil:
And they can actually do so much better if they give it some thought to it.
Kate:
Interestingly enough, what we see during a cost-of-living crisis is that, within companies, often the first budget cuts are marketing, PR and social media. They all get cut or cut back. But that's really not the way to look at it, because that's when you need that marketing more than ever. You need that marketing out there; you need your product to be seen.
Otherwise, people aren't going to be choosing. So to kind of cut all that is at this time is really the wrong thing to do.
Phil:
I think it is. It's an easy thing to do, but I think it's the wrong thing to do.
Kate:
Yeah, it's easy to justify, isn't it? Because sometimes it's not always quantifiable, is it what you're spending on marketing?
Phil:
Marketing has historically been really difficult to measure the ROI on. Digital marketing is much easier, I have to say, because you can measure clicks and things like that. But traditional marketing, packaging and all that sort of thing is really hard to measure.
Kate:
Yeah. Why do we need to change our packaging? It's working. Why do we need to do it? But, yeah, look at your sales. Look at the results.
Phil:
Yeah, exactly.
Kate:
Interesting. Well, Phil, this has been a really fascinating chat.
Phil:
Well, I really appreciate it, actually, Kate. I try and shy away from talking about it. But I really appreciate the opportunity, and it's been good fun.
Kate:
Yeah, it has, and it's been great for me to learn a bit more about how you tick — what gets you excited. I think it's really important for our listeners to know a bit more about you, because I bang on about gardening and peat-free compost all the time, so it's quite obvious what I do and who I am.
But you, Phil, I think it's really important. We should put a link to your article in this podcast. And I think people who are thinking about how they need to push their product a bit more should look into getting a really good creative marketing company. I would highly recommend — and they're not paying me — highly recommend WrightObara.
Phil:
Ah, thanks Kate.
Kate:
Anyway, Phil, we'll catch up next week. Where, we'll both be interviewing.
Phil:
Exactly. Back to normal I promise.
Kate:
Normal service will resume.