We're thrilled to welcome Vicki Nuttall, director of GIMA, the Garden Industry Manufacturers Association. Vicky, welcome to the Underground.

Thank you. Nice to be here.

Can you just sort of give me a bit of an overview of what the role of GIMA is within the industry?

Yeah, of course. We're a suppliers only trade association and we've been around for over 40 years in various different iterations. It's all about suppliers who are very much focused on the UK garden retail sector only, but that includes sort of high street, DIY online as well as garden centres as well. We've got around 160 members. We represent a turnover of around 4.8 billion we believe, and it's businesses of all shapes and sizes, large international brands, SMEs, all the way down to start ups as well so it's really quite varied. We cover all sort of areas of dry goods, I would say, that go into this garden retail environment, including seeds and bulbs, but we don't really look after anybody with live plants or anything like that.

It's very much dry goods and landscaping and things like that. Although we do have other members who are not from the gardening sector because we do have good relations with garden retail's as in garden centres. So we have some members who are sort of on the periphery outside of gardening. We're quite broad really.

So what are the sorts of things that you do as a trade association to support your members?

We have a sort of mantra which is five key areas that we cover and which sort of help us narrow it down a little bit in terms of what we can actually provide support with. So we offer saving. So opportunities for members to save money, whether that's on buying goods and services but quite often it's around exhibitions as well. We try and connect members as well. So that's all about networking. So that's networking within the membership, but also trying to connect them with potential customers as well, so with retailers. We try and help to promote members as well. So that's promoting their businesses and their brands. We represent the suppliers voice in the industry as well. So whilst we're not a lobbying organisation as in the traditional government lobbying, we we do lobby within our industry I suppose, in terms of if there’s particular issues and that certainly came to prominence in the pandemic when we did a lot of sort of lobbying and support for the supply chain.

That opened up a whole new sort of all game, new communication channels for us. Then finally supporting. So that's a bit of a catch all really. So it's lots of supporting services that we provide to members, whether that's market information, information advice on the industry in the sector, training, workshops, loads of free webinars (that's obviously picked up during and since the pandemic). We do lots of sort of webinars on lots of different topics. Yeah, I mean that's the five key areas. So it's saving, connecting, promoting, representing and supporting. That's how we define our services. And they're quite commercial. Our articles of association say that we are there to support our members commercial and trading interests. So you find that a lot of the support that we provide is geared around the sort of sales, commercial marketing, that type of area, although we have done a lot recently on things like packaging so the changes in EPR regulations and things like that.

You mentioned about lobbying there and you said that sort of came to the fore during the pandemic. And can you just tell me a little bit more about that?

Yeah. So we're not a lobbying as in a government lobbying organisation because we're such a small team. We just don't have the resources. But obviously during the pandemic, the HTA who we’ll perhaps talk a little bit more about in a minute, you know, they are very much the public face and the government facing organisation do a lot of lobbying. And so we worked alongside them. We give our voice to their cause along with all the other trade associations. So we all pull together and they did a fantastic job to lobby government to get garden centres reopened as an essential retailer during the pandemic, which was, you know, so many people were clamouring, having to spend time in their gardens, wanting to garden, using gardening products. So, you know, thankfully we were able to work with them and and they did a fantastic job to get government open so that's how that sort of came about. But since then, you know, I think the channels of communication across our industry and through all of the different trade bodies and organisations is really very strong. And, you know, we have a lot of initiatives that have come out of that. And, you know, where we have catch ups regularly across the industry and share, obviously not commercial commercially sensitive information, but general information about, you know, challenges and what's happening in the industry. So, you know, there's some good that sort of came out of that.

Well, thanks for that, Vicky. As you said, you talked about the HTA briefly. So how would you say that GIMA complements the HTA? Do you work together? Are you related in any way? And who's been around the longest?

I think HTA have probably been around the longest because GIMA originated out of the HTA, so I think it was perhaps a smaller group within the HTA, But at some point a long time ago, before my time, GMA was established as an independent organisation and it's well over 40 years ago, but I'm not sure of the exact date unfortunately. But we are completely independent of the HTA and we're governed by our own membership. We actually have a council of 12 volunteers who are made up from within the membership and we're a small team, but we you know, they make sure we're steered in the right direction.But in terms of, you know, working with the HTA as I mentioned, we will work with them as and when is necessary. But we do actually have co-ownership of the Garden press event, which is an industry event focused on connecting horticulture and garden businesses with the garden media and with influencers. But when we're talking about the HTA, their focus is really more so on retailers and growers and landscapers and our focus is on the suppliers.

So we sort of complementary, I would say, and I think HTA give us a voice outside of the industry really. You know, I've already mentioned their lobbying work, but you know, they did some fantastic lobbying in lockdown. But more recently, they've done a lot of work on cross border trade and more recently lots of work around the peat debate. And we would very much collaborate with them on any lobbying activities if our voice will give weight to their arguments.

Vicky, We live in strange economic times. What would you say are the key challenges that the sector faces right now?

I think one of the key problems for everybody, regardless of what industry you're in, you know what part of supply chain, whether in horticulture, gardening or any other industry is really the cost of doing business. You know, we've seen some incredible interest rates that none of us have really seen in recent times have a massive effect, although today, you know, it’s possibly going down, inflation's certainly going down, isn't it? So hopefully the knock on effect of that will will come to bear. But, you know, those inflationary pressures have been seen across the whole supply chain, whether that's energy costs, personnel costs, the increase in living wage, you know, all businesses are facing this challenge throughout the whole supply chain and that includes retailers as well. But for suppliers and particularly branded suppliers, another challenge that they've got coming in 2024 are extended producer responsibility costs. They're going to start hitting the balance sheet in 2024. So that's a massive change from what most suppliers have been working with up till now, you know, they've needed to start recording all of the packaging materials, not just plastic, all of the materials that they have used in packaging and particularly in branded packaging as well. And they're going to be financially liable for all of those throughout the whole supply chain, whereas before it was split across all of the supply chains. So that's going to start hitting the balance sheet for branded suppliers and some branded retailers as well. So if retailers have their own brand product, it's going to impact on them as well. And then I think as the economy starts to try to reset itself after the pandemic, you know, and all the global and political unrest that surrounds all of those things feed into it being a difficult time for anybody who's running a business. And you start to see reports about the increase in the number of businesses that are going into administration. We've already seen the demise of Wilko. Dobbies have just published a £130 million loss. And all of this just makes everybody nervous to suppliers, particularly, you know, who each year have to invest millions of pounds in pre-season stock build in the anticipation of what's to come without real guarantees. Obviously there are pre-season orders going on at the moment but yeah, everybody's a bit nervous about that at the moment.

And you know, we could see some big names in travel in the wider retail landscape as well as as that whole area shifts and changes. You know, there is a natural evolution in any sector, in any industry and obviously Internet and everything else that’s going on. But I think some of those particular pressures are coming to bear now and to some of the to some some big names, mentioning no other names at the moment. Having said all that, one of the things that I think the pandemic did help with, obviously we had a huge interest in gardening and I think that probably forced the supply chain to become a little bit more efficient. So that will have helped with some of these challenges that are being faced now, you know, with the huge peaks in demand that came in 2020 and 21 and all the fluctuations that we're seeing, you know, manufacturers and suppliers had to make changes, had to improve things so that those are they will be coming to bear now and and possibly, you know, also help build some cash reserves as well when times are tough. But yeah, it's an interesting time at the moment. I think, you know, everybody is starting to feel the squeeze, even the retailers. I mean, I don't want to sound too doom and gloom, but there are lots of challenges. But I think as long as you are aware of them, you can sort of try to navigate around them.

And I'd like to just counter some of this with “I'm no expert on all of these things”. I'm not an expert, but, you know, the free compost issue, we're still toing and froing with the government in terms of what’s exactly happening with it. Thankfully, from a domestic gardening point of view, you know, suppliers have already acted and, you know, there is a lot of free compost coming through. However, you know, we're still seeing professional and commercial growers struggling with getting successful results using peat free. And it's only going to be harder for domestic gardeners and amateur gardeners. Gardening is not a quick fix hobby, really. I mean, I know you can do a quick fix, but ultimately gardening isn't a quick fix. And if gardeners start see failures coming through, they may well look for other hobbies and pastimes.

So we've got a huge job ahead of us as an industry to try and re-educate gardeners on the use of peat-free compost, the use of watering, water harvesting, all different techniques that are coming through. That's one thing, do you want me to go on?

If you have others…

Climate change. Again, I’m no expert in climate change, but it's happening, you know, we can see it all around us. And those unpredictable weather patterns are becoming even more unpredictable. And that will have lots of challenges for us as suppliers, for retailers, not only for the gardeners as well. So, that's going to impact on all of us. And, you know, will the key selling seasons change ultimately? That's probably a long way off, but I can't see that changing any time soon.But we will see products on offer change. Plants that are on sale will probably be affected as we do move towards a mediterranean style of planting. I think another thing that's coming around the corner, hopefully not too soon, but retail landscape, you know, we are blessed with a really strong independent retail sector as well as the High Street, as well as Internet, as well as DIY, etc.. We have a really strong independent garden centre base and quite a lot of those are still family run or, you know, businesses. And I think the problem that we've got is succession planning. You know, garden Centres grew up out of market gardens in the seventies and eighties, and if you do the maths, obviously the people that set those up are, you know, looking to retire, if not already retired and who do they pass the garden centre on to? We are already seeing some very successful second and third generation businesses, you know, continue. But you know that I think potentially is a challenge coming around the corner if nobody does want to take up because of all those other challenges that I said you know, the cost of doing business and it's harder to do business.

So I think, you know, there's increased legislation and bureaucracy and all those things around it. So we need to sort of be aware of that I think and what might change on the horizon. What I'd love to see is some sort of start up fund for new entrants into the garden retail arena, because you’ve still got entrepreneurs, you've still got people that love gardening and horticulture. There's a lot of young people that are interested in that in the sector as well. And you know, so I'd love to see something like that, something that provided maybe a small fund or just got people, you know, just provided them with all the information and all the advice that the industry's got, you know, there's years and years of information and and knowledge and wisdom that if we could sort of pass that on, that would be fabulous. I mean, we do a similar thing. We have a seed corn fund that we give out once a year and it's a sort of competition run around Glee time and in conjunction with Glee actually, for somebody that comes up with a new invention or start up in the sector and they get a very modest fund of money from us, but we give them free membership and then we just give them all the information and advice and really just help them along because, you know, if you're new into any industry, there's all sorts of nuances about it and yeah, just knowing who the buyers are, you know, just basic information like that that we've got. So I'd love to see something like that on the retail side.

So where would you see that coming from Vicky? Who would run that start up fund?

I'd have to be careful because I would suggest that perhaps the HTA should run it, but I've not talked to them about it. So, you know, I don't want to get them into trouble or anything.

You heard it here first

It’s just an idea I thought of recently. I thought that would be fabulous. But yeah, I think those are some of the challenges that we've got. But I don't want to sound too doom and gloom because I think we do have so many positives about our industry and about gardening and horticulture in general. Some of our garden centres are world leading really. You know, they're very much comparable with with some big fantastic centres all around the world. And they’re worlds apart from, I have to say, some of the dismal high streets around now. Department stores are really struggling, aren't they, now? And I believe that because it's all shifted to sort of garden centres, it's sort of taken on that mantle that, you know, they're out of town, they've got free parking and fabulous cafes, they’ve all got Wi-Fi, you know, they've got not just gardening, it's all sorts of products on offer, they’re big airy spaces so I think you know, we've got a lot to be thankful of in that respect. Sorry you didn't ask me about the positives, but I'm going to talk about them anyway if that's okay.

That's good. That was going to be my next question anyway.

So it's really positive that we have really good footfall, I think in garden centres. You know one of the biggest customer groups, the garden centres is the grey pound. You know, we are an aging population and there's no doubt about that. All the stats show us that and we can see that. And also, anybody who's doing the pension is secure in the knowledge, for the time being anyway, that they've got the triple lock in place.

And so their pension is secure. So they've still got that to spend. And obviously all the, you know, health and wellbeing benefits of gardening are coming to the fore now and everybody's recognising that even the National Health Service is recognising gardening as a health benefit. And is prescribing it in some instances as well. So there's lots of activity on social media channels around gardening as well. So yeah, I didn't want it all to be doom and gloom.

Well let's keep on that positive note. Is there anything you're most looking forward to coming up in 2024?

What I'm looking forward to in 2024. I'm looking forward to really getting out to see members and particularly keen on when a new business or member joins us and is a seed corn fund potential. That always really excites me. In fact we launched a new sort of initiative that we've been trialling this last year for any new members that join us called a buddy scheme and we've been putting up members of our council with non competing companies joining us and coming in so that they can tap into a bit of knowledge and also just network with somebody within the industry as well.

Just to sort of steer them and guide them. So I'll be interesting to see how that evolves actually, because I don't want to overload the council, but they seem to be quite enjoying it at the moment. And then yeah, I mean we have a busy calendar of events, we've got a busy calendar of webinars and things coming up in the first quarter, we've got, you know, our usual day conference in March, we've got a golf day in June, we’ve got our Big GIMA Awards dinner in November now, we've just had to shift the date around a little bit because a few other things have changed. So yeah, I'm just looking forward to another another busy year really.

So you mentioned earlier on, Vicky, about the Garden press event. Can you just tell me a little bit about that and what makes that event so special?

I don't know if we might be fairly unique as an industry, but we have a lot of people who make a living out of their hobby, you know, writing about their hobby, sorry.

And I think, so 19 years ago, the Garden Press event was created to bring together horticulture and garden businesses with the garden media and obviously now influencers as well on social media channels. I like to describe it as a boutique on day exhibition. It takes place annually in February at the Garden Press Event in Islington, and luckily we do have a really quite an active community of writers and like I say now, influencers that we can tap into. In fact, there's a whole membership organisation called the Garden Media Guild purely for that. And so we do work quite closely with them for the actual event, and the timing of the garden press event is February, because really all of those people that have been writing have been hibernating over winter and are desperate to come out and meet all their friends and their colleagues. But equally they come along to to meet people who can provide them with content for the year ahead, whether that's in the traditional press or whether that's collaborations on sort of social media channels. So yeah, so it's a great event actually and as I say, I think it's about seven years ago we together with the HTA we bought it off the original founders and you know we have a lot of our members who exhibit that so it's a really great fit for us actually. So yeah, and we try and keep it very affordable for our members to attend. But yeah, I'm looking forward to that actually. That's the 20th February. That's not going to be long, going to be with us before we know it

It's not too far away at all. While we're talking about events, what are your feelings about GLEE? Does GIMA have a presence at Glee that they do things there.

Yes. So we have a long standing sort of relationship with glee. We work very closely with Hive who are the organisers, as it's a very key event for a lot of our members. We generally have around 100 members there who are exhibiting. So it's probably about a third or a quarter of the total exhibitors there are GIMA members. So it's a really, really important event and date in the calendar. There's always lots of buzz and chatter about the industry, but the key to it is the fact that it's a buying event. So it's, you know, a lot of the buyers will attend and it is very well supported by them. In terms of our participation, we have the GIMA business lounge and we also host on behalf of the organisers, we run GIMA hosted meetings, which is like speed dating sessions for the exhibitors and the buyers. So we recruit the buyers to take part, and Glee is always a hot topic of conversation. So it's always quite interesting to hear, people can get quite passionate about it and yeah, I mean, you know, obviously as we are recording this now, it's recently p been announced that the date has been shifted back to September, which actually is better for a majority of our members, mainly because pricing isn't available earlier in the year. So I think we, along with the organisers, really hoped that it would really work out for June or July but in reality, I think they've done a really good job with the help of Boyd Douglas Davis, to actually really get under the skin of what it is we need as an industry. And yeah, so we are looking forward to GLEE in September, definitely.

So I think that's a really good example of the organisers listening to what the industry needed and responding. Can I just ask a question about Glee? One of the things people always talk about is why is it a three day event rather than just two?

Well, obviously historically it's been three days. But also, I think from an exhibitors point of view, it's a hell of an investment just for two days and you need to maximise the opportunity for people to get there and come to the stand. But yeah, it's an ongoing debate. I don't think we're ready for a two day event yet. If a buyer, comes to the show and shops it properly, they need time to go round it because there's a lot to see there. I think we need to work with the organisers to encourage greater attendance and more dwell time at the event as well to make sure people, you know, use the time and carefully and plan their time there.

Though if you're a new exhibitor, any top tips on how they should go about it?

I think make sure you take advantage of every opportunity that the organisers present. There's often quite a lot of free opportunities to get promoted because they are looking for content to help promote the event. And I can see some of that happening already. And so, yeah, keep an eye on that. Look for any free PR opportunities, Take advantage of GLEE Daily news. Keep an eye out for our hosted bUYER events as well. That's particularly good for new businesses in the sector. We have an area called the GIMA Business Village as well, so sometimes buyers will seek that out because that tends to be the newer emerging businesses that take space there and get your key messages and your pricing. Make sure you've got your pricing.

That's brilliant. Thank you. I was wondering what your thoughts are about women's representation within the horticultural industry. The Hort week's people of the Year 2023 only had two women listed out of about 20 originally, although I saw that that suddenly went up. And I think that's probably to do with quite a few comments from people. But how do you feel women as a whole are represented in horticulture?

Well, I think just going to your question about the Hort week, I try not to pay too much attention to those really, because I think they can be a little bit subjective and perhaps not that scientific when they're put together. But then I would say that because I wasn't on it. So, you know,

We’ll get nominating you

In terms of women's representation, I mean, yes, I run GMA. I've been running it for ten years. And for the first time this year, we actually have a female president and a female vice president. We have Jenny Douthwaite from Prima as President. And we have Kate Ebbens from Capi Europe as our Vice President. So that's GIMA. And if you look at the HTA, there's Fran Barnes who has come in to run the HTA.

And then we've also got in the senior leadership team, you know, Jennifer Pheasey, Elia Johnston, who are all taking key roles. Jennifer Pheasey particularly is really driving forward in terms of parliamentary sort of engagement and is doing a fabulous job. And in terms of Garden X, you've got Amanda Sizer Barrett who's been running that for a number of years, and then there's another trade body called LOFA, Leisure and Outdoor Furniture Association, and Gina Hind is sort of running that and then the YPHA, Young People in Horticulture Association. Two of the three founding members are female Natalie Porter (Boynton) and Mollie Higginson. So, you know, I think there is a lot of women in influential roles, you know, in in that sort of area. What I don't see is a proliferation of sort of female business owners and entrepreneurs. And I do feel that that side is still very male dominated. And these are my personal views, so you might want to edit them out if you don’t agree, but I just think the fact that it’s still very male dominated in that sort of entrepreneurial role, I just think it probably reflects the pressures and expectations that are placed on women in both business, the work environment, career and at home. And, you know, despite that level of success at work, women are still very much expected to manage the home and domestic life as well. And so I do think there's a limit to how well you can actually reach your potential in your career if you are trying to juggle the two. That's my that's my personal view. I think that that is the reality unfortunately. And that's not to say that these these women aren't out there, but I think they're just feel few and far between. And I don't know what the answer is to that really. One thing I do think, there's plenty of female gardeners is you know, I think it's about time we had a female lead on gardener’s world.

Well, that was going to be one of my questions. Because Monty Don's going to have another year at the helm of Gardeners World. I just think that's such a shame. They're really missing out on changing the way that it is and always has been. And Phil and I were talking earlier, love Your Garden is Alan Titchmarsh, and the main representation is so male dominated. But within business, I think, as you say, is doing really well GIMA, the HTA, it's really good to see so many women are in charge. So are there any common misconceptions about the garden sector that you'd like to dispel?

I think gardening still has a sort of old fashioned and it's only for the elderly. I think the general public probably think that, and I think there's an element of truth in that, you have to have time to garden. And so, you know, as a pastime, it's often empty nesters that do take up the challenge of gardening and have a bit more time to garden. But we are seeing so many more younger people recognise the joy of gardening and build into the early stages of their life and sort of embrace it within their lifestyles and so I think that bodes well for the future. And, you know, I've already talked about all the sort of activity around social media channels and the followers that you get on Instagram, for example, are all ages. So, you know, I do think that bodes well. And I think, you know, as an industry, again, garden centres, people don’t like that phrase I suppose, but I think we are leading the way and some of the garden centres out there are absolutely fabulous destination retail centres. And you can see the way they sort of name themselves home and garden, you know, garden lifestyle, whatever, you know, them trying to move away from that garden centres tag. And yeah, so I think there's a few areas there. That’s a little bit of a misconception.

Yeah. But I think those barriers are definitely being broken down and social media has had a lot to do with that. There's so many young people that are engaged through that. And even tick tock has, you know, really kind of exploded with gardening advice as well. What are some of the trends or developments in the garden Sector that you believe will have a major impact in the coming years?

So I think when you're looking at trends, we actually work with a trends and insight organisation called Scarlet Opus who are sort of trends experts and create some bespoke content for our members to use in their sort of development marketing plans and I'm from a marketing background, so I love this stuff. But I think if we're looking into next year and sort short to medium term, we'll continue to sort of see products that bring gardeners closer to nature, offering re-wilding solutions.

And you know, we're still seeing lots of wildflower seed mixes which will continue to be popular, lots of natural solutions. We haven't mentioned sustainability once yet. I think that's probably a given now, You know, there are so many natural and more sustainable solutions around there. So I think that's probably already had a major impact, there’s lot of natural solutions, lots of additives to work with peat free compost, things like that. But I think, you know, I say this, this sort of short to medium term, we’ve still got this sort of daily onslaught of turbulent world news. And I think thankfully, the sanctuary of the home garden will continue to be a really important sort of place and refuge. So we'll still see some products and offers around sort of mood boosting and wellbeing solutions for the home and garden. Sort of peaceful, reflective colours, that sort of thing. But when we start to look a little bit further into the future, I think that's when it will probably start to get quite interesting, I think us businesses need to really consider that sort of brand positioning and their product positioning for millennials now. Millennials are the dominant category. I know we've still got a big plus 40 market and audience, but when you look at the population growth, millennials will be the next and obviously Gen Z, you know, coming in as well. And they have a whole new set of values that the businesses and certainly manufacturers need to consider. You know, consumerism is probably replaced by purposeful consumption. It's a bit of a mouthful, but it's all about purchasing decisions that are informed by a consumer's value. Repairability making products that are designed in to be repaired and maintained, which are sort of more desirable features I think going forward as opposed to built in obsolescence. I think businesses have to look to be more sustainable in their sort of business models, leaving the environment better than they found it. And there is this phrase again as climatarian diet. Have you heard of that one?

No.

And that's a focus on food that looks at reducing the carbon footprint and being very mindful of where the food we eat comes from. So it’s considering the climate, as you know, in terms of the food chain. And then universal and adaptive design, so looking at inclusivity and, you know, that becomes an expectation for brands and you know, the brands have to have an understanding of diversity, considering age, gender, ability, culture, ethnicity. So all of those things now, you start to see it coming through, but it is going to have an impact on gardening as well. And then, I think the most exciting thing is AI. It's still a topic that I really need to understand a little bit more about, but you know, for sure designers are going to start using, well they probably already are using it.

They already are.

There you go, we’re already there. But I think if you're designing gardens or designing products or just the visuals are going to become so much more organic and, you know, and perhaps dream like because people are living more virtually, they're living in the virtual world as well as the real world so the real world need to will need to reflect the virtual world. So lots more organic shapes and colours and, you know, things like that. And that's what people will want to replicate in their home and garden. So yeah, I'd really like to get under the skin of AI a bit more and understand how that's going to impact. But I certainly see from a visual point of view and that's going to be what people are going to be looking for in the future.

Phil, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that as well.

You know, I think you're right. I think it's just been an explosion over the last year I mean, you know, AI has just come in and totally dominated a lot of definitely marketing activity, but all sorts of things. And I think it is only going to increase, you know, the use of AI and it's going to revolutionise pretty much every industry.

We did a social post recently and we thought we'd try it with AI that generated the copy. We did it anyway. I mean, it wasn't great. It still has a way to go. It was so flowery. And you know, it just didn't sound like anybody was actually writing it. So there's still a little bit of a way to go. But it was interesting as an experiment. So you’ll have to see! Go back on our linkedin posts, see if you can figure out which one it was.

Absolutely. I'll have to have a look.

I think it still got plenty of likes, so the computer making algorithms obviously liked it.

Well, thank you so much Vicky, for taking the time to talk to us today.

We've covered so many topics. It's really been a whistle stop tour, but we've valued your insights and opinion and it's been really excellent to talk to you today. I've loved learning about your idea for an entrepreneurial startup fund, so I shall have to keep an eye out for that and see whether you managed to get that off the ground.

And also the idea that the next generation of consumers are moving away from that consumerism to what did you say, a purposeful consumption, that idea that their purchasing decisions are being informed by a new set of consumer values.

I like that too. I do, especially this year when the biggest selling plants are bedding, which, although you know, generally pretty good value and very colourful, aren't really best for the environment and wildlife.

But I do think that will start to change. It has to start to change as we move on. And as you were talking about the millennials and even the Gen Z is, that's not where they're going. So I think the garden centres have got to be ready for all that change. They really have to. Once again, Vicky, thank you so much.