Phil: On today's show, we're delighted to welcome presenter, author, podcaster and campaigner, Lee Connelly, aka The Skinny Jean gardener. Lee is acknowledged as the UK's leading children's gardening educator, with appearances on Blue Peter, BBC Teach, Radio one as well as numerous other TV appearances. With an infectious energy and enthusiasm encouraging kids to learn the joys of gardening, I think we're in for a real treat. Lee, welcome to the underground.

Lee: Hi, how are you both doing? Thanks for having me on as well, I really appreciate. It's nice to be here.

Kate: Oh, no. Thank you for coming on with us. It's great.

Phil: So Lee, can you just tell us a bit about how you got into gardening?

Lee: Yeah, see the thing is, I do children's garden so a lot of people think, oh, you must have gardening with your parents when you were younger. You must have done it with your granddad. And to be honest with you, I never as a child got into gardening. It was when I was 24 years old, my brother got an allotment. We hadn't seen each other for quite some time because I moved out of my mum and dad's house to move in with my now wife, and, we missed each other. We don't miss each other as much no we garden together, but we just wanted something where we could come together and both had no knowledge of it. And because we didn't do it when we were younger, it was like the perfect thing to sort of get into and learn together. We, like, tried to be in, like, a crazy golf team together and, into a band, but we both didn’t really have the skills for that. So, yeah. So it was a nice thing to come together and learn and, and be able to talk about really so that was how the thing started.

Phil: Excellent.

Kate: That so cool that somebody at 24 and their brother could get an allotment with no kind of no experience or anything like that. You know, there are so many other things you could have ended up doing, and. Wow, what a story.

Lee: I know right. I remember when we first went there and it was just full of couch grass. What? I'd never heard of couch grass before, and someone offered me a rotavator to sort out the plot. Another plot holder there as well. So they were stitching me up instantly. And we rotavated it all in and thought oh it’s beautiful. It looks lovely. And then learnt, obviously, you definitely should not do that. Well, I apologise to that plot hole that I ended up getting that plot after me, nightmare!

Kate: How on earth did you go from having an allotment to then becoming the Award-Winning number one children gardening educator that you are now? Because that is a big leap, isn't it?

I used to be an electrician when I was, 24, when I started gardening, I was an electrician. And so in the weekends, I was down the allotment with my brother and my friends, came down in the week, in the evenings, and I said, we built this community up together. And very slowly we started to get, it was like the start of social media. I mean social media had been around for a while but people weren't using it as much as we do now. And so we started to put pictures up and ask people on there how to grow stuff. And, Jimmy Doherty, who is in Suffolk, just up the road from us, has a farm. I always call him Jamie Oliver's mate.

Kate: This is Jimmy's farm, isn't it? Jimmy's farm?

Lee: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Anyway, he messaged us on social media, said, I've got a patch here on my farm. I'd like to turn back into an allotment. And we were like, yeah, wicked will come and have a look at it. Went down there and it was massive, like honestly, it was so big. It used to be an old cow paddock. They turned it into allotment and then it just got too much and got overgrown. And the weeds were about two times, my height. It was just ridiculous. When, Jimmy asked me to do something, we were like, oh, wow. Like, this is amazing. So we actually started, an allotment there. It took us weeks and weeks to get rid of the weeds. And then we started having visitors come down. And, from that point, we'd only been, growing our own for about a year, maybe. And we were all of a sudden known as the experts on Jimmy's farm. I don’t know how that happened? We spent a year weeding with… So we had people come down and visitors, and they were, like, asking us questions about how to grow stuff. And we were like, well, we're actually this is the start of our journey. And you know, how some gardeners, just going to say it, older gardeners like to try and trick you and trip you up, right? They were trying to trip us up and they didn't realise what they were in for because we didn't have a clue what we were doing, so we were getting information from them. It was a beautiful learning curve. And then we started working with Jamie Oliver, which was amazing. And then we ended up on Blue Peter, which is just wild to think that a program I used to watch when I was just a kid, I'm actually down on it being the Blue Peter Gardener. And it's one of those things where I love it because, when I was that age, I was quite shy person. I didn't really talk to people. I couldn't even answer the phone. I was too scared of who it would be, and gardening basically brought me out of my shell a little bit and made me more confident. And, I got to speak to people and I communicated a lot better than I did back then. And so that's why I loved it so much. TV and media was never a thing that I ever, ever thought I'd want to get into. Blue Peter threw me into, like, children's gardening. And then I had my daughter, and that's when I really see that that, that spark in my, my mind was like, I love this so much. I get to spend time with my daughter out in the garden and, like, making memories, like she's eight years old now and we made some of the most amazing memories out in the garden. And that's and that's why then I turned it into, a career. Because I get to spend time with her, get to go into schools, get to see kids eyes light up when they get outside and hold worms and grow plants. And it's just magical to be part of that whole experience. And yeah, now I'm here being the UK's lead in, so it's cool. I love it so much.

Kate: It's brilliant, isn't it? What a great journey you've had. So apart from obviously making memories, being together, what do you see are the benefits of gardening for children?

There's so many. I always lock onto the memory side because I think it's so important for parents to connect, especially as we talked about technology and social media. And as a parent, I know that it's really easy to pick up the phone, be swiping through absolute rubbish. And just forget the place you're in. So memories is a big thing for me, being outside, away from technology, in the garden, growing things. I think that's a big thing, that parents can learn from it. But, there's obviously physical health, which is really improved by being outside for children. You know, children don't go outside as much as they used to. I remember when I used to be a kid, I was outside skating, climbing trees and getting stuck up trees generally. Just being outside all the time. Now, I know, I know this, I have an an eight year old now, and all these games and the struggle. Getting kids away from technology. It doesn’t happen. Kids don't get outside as much as they used to. So their physical health improves if they're outside doing something in the garden and, mental health as well. I think we're still not properly seeing the effects of what happened back in 2020 with children, and with in schools. We're not seeing those effects quite yet. Still, I think so. I think that, gardening and growing plants, can also really help with that.

And also patience is another thing. So I've got like a list of a thousand here. Patience, great one. I love this because when I first started gardening, everyone was like, yeah, cool. Like gardening is cool. How can we make it fast and quick? Gardening’s never going to be quick. And that's that is the beauty of it. When I can order something on the internet, I actually ordered something. I ordered a diary this morning and it said, it's going to be with me by 10:00 tonight. When we can order something and literally it comes instantly, we need to be able to teach that that things take time. Patience with children needs to be taught. Bit like my career, right? It takes time. I want to be Monty Don on the first day of gardening. Why are they not putting me on Gardener’s World? But it's patience. Things take a lot of time to grow in the garden and in life. So that's a really big lesson from, gardening.

Phil: I think that's great. So you're known for being on a mission to get gardening into schools. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that?

Yeah. This is, a bit of a passion of mine. Now, I was having a conversation with someone yesterday, and they're like, why do you do it? And the biggest thing for me, like I said, is when I was younger, I didn't do any gardening at school or at home. And in fact, we had a, like, a little, pond, like a little, pond dipping area. Like a dirty little pond in the corner. We used to go pond dipping and that was about as much outdoor activity we used to do at school. And now, there's schools that do amazing things. Some have got massive allotments. I went to one with goats and sheep and it was like going to a farm park. I was looking for a place to pay to be honest with you. And then you've got schools that don't do a lot or just have like, tarmac playgrounds. Can't get out there and do enough. And the biggest things with schools is their bit of the epicenter of gardening I see them as, because of so many, children either live in flats or don't have a garden or just have a little balcony and don't have space.

We've got parents that are obviously out working 9 to 5, and then we’re getting back, we’re doing homework, we’re doing tea and when we supposed to, as parents really try and get outside. We've got busy lives now and. Yeah, but I say schools as the place where we can start this off, and start this little adventure for children in the garden. So for the past three years, I think it was basically in 2020, I did a school gardening tour, and we got 10,000 children. Garden gardening. I was like, on the back of a pickup truck, like throwing seeds out like the gardening Jesus. And we were given loads of products to schools. And one thing I realised was there was no direction for teachers and there was no real guidance for teachers to bring it in.

It's easy to give products to schools, but if a teachers don't know what to do with them, then it doesn't work. And so from that point, I realised that what we need to really is make this part of education and for the last three years, we've been very slowly building that up to try and, get that into the curriculum, basically, which is a big ask, because I think when I first started ten years ago, that was something that was being talked about. And, you know, I do all sorts of fun shows and gold jackets and spaceman outfits to get kids excited about gardening, but do I really want that to be my legacy from my career? Probably not. I don't want to be remembered just for the gold jacket. So if I can do my bit to try and get that into the curriculum, however much we can do it and get more children growing their own food, then then that will be a success for me. So that's something that I've been working on for the last three years. So last year I was so proud to go into the House of Lords to give evidence for that. And, yeah, that was exciting to be able to do that. And that's really slowly built up more connections to in the right direction for it.

Phil: So I should have have my, my guitar here. And I wanted to sing this question to you, but has Rishi sooner actually replied to your letter yet?

Lee: I mean, no, he’s still not, can you believe it? This is the thing with this. I'm not massive into politics at all. And very slowly, from doing what I've been doing, I've sort of had to, like, look into it more and delve into it. And one thing I've realised is speaking to politicians is difficult. And even when you do get to speak to them, whether they actually listen to what you're saying or they just nod and just say, yeah, yeah, it sounds good. Whether it will happen is slim. So it's an uphill battle. This whole curriculum thing. We're in a ripe old year of turbulence, aren't we? So I'm hoping that somehow we can get in there and actually make some sort of movement towards making it happen. But no, the answer is no. Rishi’s not got back to me yet.

Kate: Do you feel that the publics perception of gardening and horticulture… I remember being really upset a few years ago, when David Cameron kind of said, you’ve got to study hard so you can get into university otherwise you’ll end up as a bin man or a gardener. So for me, I’ll proudly call myself a horticulturist who gardens, I really do. And I just find though, sometimes, public perception, especially young kids, school leavers, never even consider it as a career. So I think trying to change that perception is something that really needs to happen. Gardening isn’t just for retired people with big gardens. So I think what your doing is a great start isn’t it, but it’s getting those seeds to grow and just feed into secondary schools.

Lee: That's the thing. Right? So. Because when I left school, I didn't even know that gardening was even a career in horticulture was available. Like you say, I thought it was for people who retired, and that's what they do. And, I think, because I'm really, like, concentrating on primary schools more than anything. I think if we start children off in primary school, I always say in secondary school there's so many distractions and so much pressure. It's that it's very difficult, I think, to get that into the curriculum there. In my own personal opinion, primary school is much easier. But if we, like you said, plant that seed really early in a child's life, they'll go through secondary school, sure, but because they've got that gardening going on still either at home or they're bringing it into secondary school themselves, the hope is that we'll have a younger generation coming into the industry, when they leave school, that is the biggest thing I think. The most important thing we can get from as an industry, but, yeah, I think also media is a bit of, a thing where, it shows gardens that are far too big and lavish and kids can't connect with it. I think I go into schools and people are like, oh, I can't, I can't do gardening because I haven't got a garden or because I've only got a small space. Actually anyone can grow it.You've got a windowsill you're good to go. I don't think we concentrate enough on that in media, I think that’s media’s fault. We give so much coverage to like Chelsea and stuff like that. Everyone's already talking about oooo, Chelsea, Chelsea, Chelsea, Chelsea is great, right? Yeah. I love the Chelsea. I love walking around with a glass of champagne in me hand and acting like I'm all posh and all that, but actually a child watching that for a whole week, if they do the on telly, it's just beyond them. It's like, well, I'm never going to have a garden like that. And parents as well. Look at that look I am. Well I can never have a garden like that. Gardens take time. Like I love my garden I've got and it's still nowhere near, where I want it to be. But it takes time. Again, we’re going back to that patience thing aren't we. Gardening takes time. TV makes things look like you can do it in a week. You can do it in a week but you’ve got to have about 30 grand in your back pocket! But it just doesn't happen in real life. It takes time and I think that's something we need to sort of show more. I always talk about, if you’ve seen, Danny Clark's Instant Garden, have you watched that program? I loved that program, I don't think it's on anymore, but I love watching the repeats of it. Yeah, and I watched it with my wife, and she goes, like, the end shot of the garden, and she's like it don’t look very impressive. And I was like yeah, because they've actually planted it up so the plants have space to grow. Whereas other shows they pack the borders full of plants make them look amazing. Well, what they don't show you is they take about 50% of them away once the cameras disappear.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, I used to work on those make over shows, and we would just chuck things in that you knew weren't gonna look amazing a few months down the line. That's why you never do revisit shows with gardening makeovers. You never go back. But, I think that's one thing social media is really good at, though, because you've got the, you know, the balcony gardeners and, you know, it's mainstream media that really hasn't caught on yet, I think. But, I like that yourself and lots of other YouTubers and Instagram, there are loads of inspiration out there for what you can do with a small space. So, you know, we've got to keep plugging that as well.

Lee: Yeah, see I love looking at the Cloud Gardener, he's got like a balcony. Brilliant right. But he shows it as well when it looks absolutely terrible and he's like, well it does look like this sometimes.

Kate, Yeah yeah yeah, absolutely. And that is the reality of it isn't it.

Phil: What can businesses, and I’m thinking maybe garden centres or nurseries or even garden product manufacturers, be doing to help encourage young people into the garden?

Lee: That's a really good question. I think especially garden centre's is building community. Right. So if you relook at it, business wise, by bringing in families and children, you're actually securing the future of your business as a garden center because you're building a connection and a story with children, which, when they're old enough to start going buying plants that will connect them to the garden center, rather than maybe going to some of the big sheds, to go and buy stuff with their paint, you know what I mean. I’m a massive fan of garden centres. I think they're, you know, we've got one just down the road from us. And I've got like a connection because my parents love going there for cream teas. But I now go and get my plants from there because I know they're great plants, they’re great people, and you get really good information from them as well. And I think for children to be part of that, that like community if we concentrate on garden centers. Then by, having like family days, by having like, kids gardening activities. There's some that do gardening clubs. I think that's really good. I think that's a really positive way of bringing that togethe and following on that story. For brands, I don't know, it's the same sort of thing. At the end of the day, it's all about story, isn't it? Like if there's like a story to something then there's a connection of people. So it's a tough one in it. Because it depends what the brand selling as well. If you’re selling a lawnmower, how are you supposed to connect with a kid? That's a tough one, I suppose.

Kate: Compost though, you can, You know, there can definitely be stories, journeys , you know, so tomato planters. Then you could maybe make up a little tomato character and have a book and, you know, have little social media accounts where you chart your progress. So just I think tapping into what's already there, I think brands really need to kind of jump on board with that a bit more.

Lee: Yeah, that's really nice. I tell you one thing that I will say about that, Kate, right, is one thing that I really push, especially for children, is you know like gardening tools for example,. There's some amazing garden tools that I use, and they look like adult ones, but they're just a little bit smaller. They’re proper steel, they're proper good. They're like stainless steel ones and they're strong. But always with kids stuff they chuck a load of colours on it and really like kidify it up. Is that a word Phil?

Phil: Oh yeah absolutely

They kiddify it up, and the thing with children is, and you'll know this by, like, just having a phone is they don't want the play phone. They want the real thing, and they want to be part of... They want to feel like they're being treated, and, and, are responsible for something from their parents.

So I think the biggest thing for me is that I don't, like, make it like, too kiddy. Don’t kiddify it!

Kate: They don't have to all be bright pink and bright blue.

Lee: Yeah. That's right. And also sometimes the children ones are useless! Like you put them into the soil and a little stone will break them. The thing we want is the children and grown ups as well, they want success from anything they use and so as soon as something fails, it means that that person may stop their gardening adventure. So if we get success there, then that will continue. There won't be a wall in the way.

Kate: I'd like those tools because I've got really tiny hands. So for me, it's like trying to get hold of tools that I can work with is a nightmare. So I don't want to be, you know, using bright pink kiddy tools. But that's about all that I can carry. So I'd love a proper professional kid size tools.

Phil: So Lee, you've got your own podcast. Can you tell us some of the feedback that you're getting from that?

Lee: Yeah, do you know what, I told you a bit of my story at the start about me and my brother and, and then how like we slowly came into media and stuff like that. And then he decided to leave to become a doctor, show off. And, that left me right. And so, I was going to quit.

I wasn't going to do it anymore because like I said, my confidence was not very high at the time. And then I found the incredible world of podcasting. And this was back in like 2017. And I started my podcast, and I like to do something a little bit different. And it is all about children and parents growing. And it's become a lot more educational in that sense. And aimed towards parents and children. But I've always wanted to do it in my own little style and a little bit, bit different. So I've got like tunes, songs and, little characters, I like to do characters. I like to do the voices as well. So, yeah, it's a little bit different. And I think, you know, like your podcast, like, it's nice to have things that are just a little bit more niche and, and concentrated in different areas than the usual. And. Yeah. So that's why I love it so much. And I also try and make it as short as possible for parents because, you know, we don't all have loads of time. I love listening to podcasts like yours, and I'm pottering around the garden and listening to them. But as parents, you want to get information out to them, you want to be quick and snappy. I only recently bought it down to about a 20 minute and trying to fit all the information into a small time amount of time, so that they can do it over a cup of tea. But yeah, I love it because it connects me to so many people around the world. I'd never thought I'd be hearing from people from, like, Australia and Canada, America and and all over the world and, yeah, it's it's an incredible thing. I love it so much. It's such a good thing.

Kate: So have you got an international tour planned now?

Lee: It’d be wicked. I'd love to be all over the world. My wife wouldn't like me being away for that long, but, yeah, I think it's such a good medium for getting people into it because you can be doing anything. You can be washing up and listening to garden content constantly. I listen to so many different gardening podcasts while I'm typing away and doing work, pottering around outside. And like I say, it connects you with so many different people. So yeah.

Kate: Okay, I'm going to change the subject a little bit. Is there a garden gadget or tool that you find you could not live without?

Lee: A garden gadget that I couldn't live without? Well, that is a question, isn't it? Do you know what? And this is not even a gadget at all. But recently, this is really boring actually. It’s not even a gadget, it's just a water butt but like, I don't know why, but over the last few years I've never really had like a water butt. And last year I got one and I was like, this has changed my life? I’ve got one out the bag. It means I haven't got to walk up and down the garden anymore. I've got one out the front and I've got this, oh, it’s not a garden gadget, but it's a jet washer. A battery powered jet washer, pop the pipe in the water butt, wash my car out the front. Brilliant. Water the plants. Anything so that I don't have to walk any further. I wish I had something better for that. I wish it was a better answer. But a water butt is, if anyone's not got a water butt this year is the year for it. It’s great. I talk to people and go oh, I love my water butt, and they're like, yeah, I think I might get one of them. It's like something that, like normal people, I mean, people not in gardening, don't think about because it saves you water as well. I bet you're going to have so many more better gadgets than that. If you do like, a wall of the best gadgets like a tier wall, I'll be on the bottom forever.

Kate: Like Top Gear

Lee: Yeah, yeah, do an underground podcast cool wall.

Kate: No I think that’s a great one because it is about sustainability, its about the scarcity of water. But there are people who get really fancy ones, is yours just a plain green one or has it got a planter on the top? Is it shaped like a Greek urn? I mean theres all sorts of things, you can really get geeky about them.

Lee: There are some pretty fancy ones. They're also quite expensive, so mine is just a standard, boring Water butt. But oh, my mate Richard, he’s also podcaster actually, he's got like 30 water butts. I call him the water butt king.

Kate: I think people get addicted to them, they really do.

Lee: We’ll I've got to two at the moment but I'm already eyeing up another one.

Kate: I know we're kind of still in winter time. But can you give us a top tip this weekend, which you could, you know, do with your kids to get them out in the garden? Something just a bit of fun

Lee: Yeah, my top tip is, bug hotels, like I am loving bug hotels at the moment. There is a game called Go Find It. Have you heard of this? It's made by the Sensory Trust. So if you buy it, all the money goes to them. But it's called Go Find It. And all it is, is like a pack of cards that say, find me something small or find me something bumpy. And basically you make a bug hotel out of it. I make one out of a milk carton, so you just get like a big old 2 pinter milk carton or 4 pinter, up to you. You cut the front out of it. And then basically what you do is you play this game called Go Find It. It means the kids can run outside, have a look for like the smallest thing or a stone or anything like that from these cards, turn into a game and then they can fill their bug hotel up. And then it’s perfect because it’s in a milk carton means you can pop it anywhere. So if you just got a balcony, you can actually just pop it on the balcony or just outside the back door. Anything like that makes it really simple. And it only lasts about half hour, which in this weather when it's cold is just about the limit. I think for children and adults to be outside

Kate: That's brilliant. So something you could maybe go with the kids to the park if you haven't got a garden and or just, you know, go to any open space and just have a bit of fun, a bit like an old fashioned scavenger hunt, really, isn't it?

Lee: Yeah. It really is. I mean, you can make your own cards, but you don’t have to buy them ones, but they make it, turn into a bit of a game, and, again it comes back to that memory side of things of kids remembering, saying “remember when we did that book hotel, like we were out down the local woodland and collecting bits” and yeah, it just makes it fun. So yeah, that's my biggest top tip for the winter.

Kate: Thank you so much.

Phil: No. That's fantastic. So, Lee, what's next for you?

Lee: Next? Oh, I’ll tell you what, I'm really excited that this year I'm going to be a judge for the Jamie Oliver Good Food School Awards, which, I'm super excited to be part of it. So we like concentrating on the sustainability award and how schools are connecting their food that they're cooking up for lunchtime and also growing it as well, and trying to try and do that within schools. So, yeah, that's my next thing. I’m onto this year and, yeah, it's good to be part of it.

Kate: When does that take place and where where's that?

Lee: So schools can start applying in February, I want to say February the 6th of this year. They can start applying and then it closes in March, and then we'll judge it in April. And then the awards go out then. And so it's a really great thing. It just sort of highlighting the amazing schools doing stuff. There's so many schools that want to do more. And those sort of awards highlight what is going on around the UK. And so that's I think that's really important. So yeah I'm very excited about that.

Kate: Great. Well, we'll keep our eyes peeled for all of that happening.

Lee: Oh also I'll tell you another thing, it’s literally just come out, talking about water butts, I've just done a film about ripping up my front driveway to turn it into a wildlife and water saving garden because, someone ten years ago, some absolute idiot, went and block paved the whole of the front of the garden. And that idiot was me, and, and I've hated it ever since. And the biggest thing that people always moan about when it's raining hammers it down the road, turns into a river. And that is because we've all gone and concreted and tarmac the front of our gardens. So, we've just done a makeover of literally… I should have got you involved, Kate. We did a makeover show of how we can still keep parking but with plenty of planting, so erm yeah.

Kate: That's a whole other podcast I think that one, the whole sustainability. I mean, there's been massive research done about how it's contributed to flooding, just paving over. So, yeah, I think, Phil, we need to do one of those.

Phil: Well, thank you so much, Lee. Really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today and, really wish you all the success with your campaign to try and get, more young people gardening and get it onto the curriculum. I think it's a really fantastic thing, and we really wish you all the best with that. And, to any manufacturers of tools out there, don't keep “kiddifying” the tools. The kids want actual proper tools which are just shaped and sized for their teeny tiny hands like Kate's

Kate: And can I just add also, Rishi is probably listening, I'm sure, but, get on and reply to Lee ASAP.

Lee: Yeah, like, what is it like ten months is a long time to reply to a letter in it. come on right. Anyway, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you having me on. And, Yeah. Good luck.