Kate:
So this morning I'm delighted to say that we are joined by Dan Durston and Simon Blackhurst. So good morning gentlemen.
Simon:
Good morning Kate.
Dan:
Thank you.
Kate:
Thanks for coming on. So I'm going to kick off. And Dan I'd like to ask you. So Durston is your, your surname. It's your family business based in Somerset and is over 150 years old. So can you tell us a bit about this?
Dan:
Yes I can. 1860 my Great, Great, Great Grandfather moved to Sharpham, where he dug, some peat by hand for burning and sold to the local towns via horse and cart. Moving on 100 years. Not a lot changed, really, apart from different generations. And instead of a horse and cart, they had a small lorry.
And in 1960, horticulture became, known for using peat as a growing media. So my grandfather at the time, brought in German machinery to dig peat, mechanically, and we sold peat to other growing media manufacturers so that they could use it in their bags. At the same time, my grandfather and my grandmother were hobby farmers.
They had a small dairy herd, that was sold in 1973, so that they could concentrate more on, manufacturing and harvesting peat to sell. And in 1989, when my grandfather retired, my dad and my uncle, decided that they would like to install their own factory and manufacture their own compost. And they produced 1000 pallets in their first season.
Moving on to 2010, we, installed our first ever fully automatic, bagging plant, where you don't touch the bag at all. You put the rolls of film on at one end, and you take the pallets off at the other end. And then we had Covid when we were working silly, silly hours. I was doing, my day job, sort of, eight till four and then going home for something to eat and coming back in to work in the factory until midnight.
Working weekends because there was nothing else to do. And lots and lots of pallets of compost to make. Not a day off for four months. So that was the first thing we did after Covid was, invest in a secondary production line. Because we realised our vulnerability with only having one line.
Moving on, we've got further expansion plans. So, this summer we installed our third fully automatic production line. So, yeah, we know we now have the capability of producing 6000 pallets in a week.
Kate:
Right. Goodness. Can I ask how big is how big is the farm? How big is your land?
Dan:
Well, we've got, 150 acres of, peat land and exhausted peat land, factory, etc..
Kate:
So did you always see yourself as joining the family business, or did you have other dreams? So tell us a bit about you Dan.

Dan:
Well, mentally, I was going to be a professional sportsman, but that didn't happen. But, no, I've always had a very, passionate interest in the family business. And I've been coming here visiting and helping out for over 40 years. You know, just as a child in school holidays, coming down and helping stroke, getting in the way.
You know, it was it was something I've always loved to do. And after school, I went to university, and, I dropped out after a short period. It wasn't for me. But I asked my dad if he had any jobs going, and he said no. Fast forward a year, there was a vacancy, so he, offered me a job, working in the factory as a forklift driver, starting at, you know, the bottom as it should be. And I progressed working in the factory over 18 years until I became factory manager, because I was the most experienced at the time.
Then 2016, there was, a territory vacancy in sales. So I was doing 3 or 4 days a week in the factory and two days a week on the road. And then later on that year, there was a vacancy as national sales manager.
And I put myself forward for that. I've been here in this position ever since.
Kate:
Goodness. So no actual real title nepotism. You started from the bottom, and you had to apply for those jobs and get them so that that's unusual, isn't it?
Dan:
Yeah. I don't know if it's unusual, but I'm proud of how it was, and I wasn't, you know, slotted in at the top, you know, in a, in a managerial role from the start. I do know the business completely inside out. And, yeah, I'm, I'm very grateful for that, for having the knowledge that I have now.
Phil:
Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. I'm really interested in the land that you've got, Dan. So, you know, can you just describe some of that peatland that your family's been working on for us?
Dan:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's lowland, inland peat land, if you like. And, it was drained, by the monks of Glastonbury Abbey many, many years ago. And there's there has been not not currently, but there has been, lots of small manufacturers of peat in the same area that we're at now. For all that time.
Kate:
So can I just rewind a little bit? Drained by the monks of Glastonbury Abbey! I mean, that's fascinating.
Dan:
Yeah, many, many years ago, this was known as the ancient Isle of Avalon. It was all flooded area. And until it was drained, it was just completely useless land. I cannot be completely accurate, but my great grandfather, I think, used to go to school on a boat.
Simon:
Wow.
Kate:
Fantastic. So we're not talking about kind of the peat land habitat that is kind of wetlands, that's rich with wildlife and birdlife. We're talking about peat land, that habitat that was used, that was drained many, many years ago before your companycame into effect. Is that right?
Dan:
Yes, yes.
Kate:
Okay. All right. It's not like your company came along in the 60s and kind of devastated this landscape because already it had been used a lot, hadn't it? So it wasn't kind of this beautiful, pretty peat land that that's what people automatically assume. It was already a worked land.
Dan:
Yeah. That's correct. I mean, we've always, harvested our peat in a sympathetic way. And we've always restored the bogs thereafter. To produce wetlands, and fishing lakes and, haven for nature, because, you know, when we started, excavating that they were, just very low level grazing land. And what we left behind is, a habitat for nature and wildlife everywhere.
Kate:
Lovely.
Phil:
Right, and that's really important, isn't it? I think. And so moving fast forward now. So, your company's now making that transition to peat free. What inspired you to do that? And what's your passion about the sustainability of, peat free?
Dan:
As a business, we've always had an ethos. If we're going to do something, then we want to do it well. And obviously there's been peat debate. Ever since the mid 90s, I would say, and we launched our first ever earth friendly range in mid 90s, with peat free products, using all sorts of, weird and wonderful ingredients, but heavily, coir based.
And it was just ahead of its time. So, we tried that for about 3 or 4 years and dropped it. Obviously with the legislations going through in Parliament now, for the last few years, we, we felt it was the right time to, get ahead of the game. And with Simon's help, we've developed a range of products with materials that we know work.
And, and we're very, very proud of our, quality of our peat free.
Phil:
Brilliant, so you mentioned Simon there. So this sounds like a good time to bring you in, Simon. Can you just tell us a little bit about, how you became involved with Durstons?
Simon:
Yeah. So, I used to work for Bord na Móna, which was the Irish board of peat. And so many years ago, I was working on peat free before, they stopped harvesting the peat. So Bord na Móna was the biggest exporter essentially to all the manufacturers of Irish peat. And they when I joined the company, they wanted to move into peat free because they knew they were going to start harvesting from the bogs and they were going to start turning their power plants to, alternative uses.
So I spent a number of years looking at, formulations, raw materials. Different combinations, all those bits and bobs to get a good peat free range together. And we worked with most of the major multiples and B&Q and the likes. And then Bord na Móna exited peat and decided that they also weren't going to continue with horticulture in terms of their portfolio. So our site was closed down and sold to another company. And at that point, we were all made redundant, and I wanted to use all the information that I'd got from horticulture via Bord na Móna to help others, because I knew that peat free was a challenge. You know, I'd been working on it for a good long number of years and having all those issues, and was still active within the Growing Media Association, The Horticultural Trades Association, you know, all of those bodies. And I just wanted to disseminate as much information as I possibly could to help people grow plants, because, you know, that's my passion. Dan and I had met many a time at the Growing Media Association meetings, never really got, you know, over friendly or anything. But then as I was an independent and Dan was looking for their future of peat free, we got in touch and, yeah, I suppose the rest as they say is history.
So we've been sort of working together for at least two years now on their ranges, and I everything from research and development, through to production and skills and. Yeah, but I think we've made… well, we have made, exceptional products that are outperforming others on the market. So we're both very proud to be fair. Durstons from their point of view. And obviously from my point of view, the technical side of things, because I'm a, I'm a geek basically in terms of growing media, that's where my brain sits.
Kate:
Were you always into horticulture or was this a departure from what you used to do?
Simon:
It was a departure, but similarly to Dan, my family, I grew up on a farm and we had a dairy herd. So my parents always said, there's money in muck! You know, it was on of their favourite things? My previous background is more, fast moving consumer goods, manufacturing industries auditing across the world. And I dip into toys, I dip into consumer products. I do quite a wide variety of things, which is fascinating for me. But I have always grown things. I remember I was probably ten, 11 when I got my first greenhouse, that my parents bought me. So I was starting growing tomatoes at an early age with lots of failure, but equally some successes. And now, I mean, if you have some partner I would be trouble. I've got probably over a hundred houseplants, and I can't even count how many pots I've got outside. It is a passion of mine.
Kate:
Your backdrop looks great, I love it.
Simon:
Thank you.
Kate:
So, Simon, you mentioned challenges within peat free, so, what have you seen as some of the challenges in creatin a product, that matches the quality of the peat-based compost, and you said you’re really happy with what Durston’s are producing now, so, do you think we’re getting there?
Simon:
Yes. In a short word, I think we have to sort of take it back to peat in terms of why we used peat, and or why we still do use peat in certain situations. It's stable. It's inert. It doesn't really do anything. You know, it's a blank canvas for a manufacturer to be able to apply whatever nutrients and, surfactants, etc., that they need to be able to produce it for a specific plant type.
And it's very easy if you start with a blank piece of paper to then add in what you need. So that's why peat was very helpful and easy to utilise. Whereas now as we move into the peat free world, we've got lots of different ingredients that have different chemical and physical properties all coming together and then having their own interactions whilst within the bag, or you know, whilst they are stored, and expecting, you know, a similar result at the end, and it's not that straightforward.
So you have to really understand your supply chain of your raw materials. You've got to understand their sort of, their properties in terms of how they're going to change over time and how they interact with each other. To be able to make sure that that end point product, when it goes to a consumer, is going to work. And that's the challenge from a Growing Media Manufacturer point of view, getting the right mix of the right materials and that consistency time and time again.
Phil:
Can I just say, Simon, I really like that answer. I think you made that really clear. And I think that was one of the best answers I've heard this that transitioned and why, you know, the difficulties of being able to move, to peat free, you know, with the new ingredients they are having to use and the different properties they have and, and all that side of thing. So, I mean, that’s really good. Back to you Kate.
Simon:
Thank you
Kate:
So, is there enough support in the industry for this, the peat free transition? Especially when the anticipated peat ban keeps getting pushed back and pushed back.
Simon:
I think it's very difficult at the moment. You know, Durstons has had to, specific to them, invest a lot of money in infrastructure operations, and supply chain management to be able to produce a quality peat free. And they've done that out of their own purse. You know, there's there is no, was no, support for R&D or anything like that.
And having me as a contractor, you know, they’re paying somebody external to be able to help develop their products, and they've had to do that because they wanted to. And when you look at if we go into the professional market looking at large scale growers, they get a single season, typically to be able to produce the product, which gives them their revenue.
Well, if they jump into peat free, you know, without all the knowledge and expertise needed, and they have a failure of 100,000 plants, their business could be on the rocks. So it it's very difficult, I think, without having some support with legislation. I don't personally think that just having a ban works. I think you have to have all the systemic changes added into that to be able to make viable for all the different types of people that interact within the horticultural industry.
There are, you know, there's the person at the ground that's doing the bagging. The person in retail shop that’s trying to sell the plants. There's a lot of people that it touches. And at the moment, the education, I think from understanding of peat free is not necessarily there. There aren’t many me’s in the world that have just geeked out on peat free! And so, you know, it's trying to get that information out there so that people can have successes. Because the biggest thing is to enable the industry to continue to grow.
We have to produce good quality product, but we also have to ensure that the consumers know how to use them because it is different to peat based. And don't… Most people blame themselves. When I started out, I would blame myself. I wouldn't think that growing media was actually as important as it is. But you’re starting with the grower media, which is the foundation for the plants to be able to flourish. And so for me it’s very important that it might just be mud to some people or dirt or soil, but actually there's a lot more going on in that root zone in that area that's very, very important.
Kate:
Absolutely. I mean, I totally agree with you with that. And one of the things I do, I give talks on how to use peat free for gardeners, you know, to get the best out of it. The RHS is very much kind of been leading this, you know, within the industry, there's a lot of people still challenging it. There has been quite a lot of time. It's a difficult one, isn't it? Because I totally get where you're saying, but I'm also coming as somebody who works a lot with home gardeners who are buying peat free, and they know that that's what they want, that's where they're going. And there's a lot of people pushing back saying, no, no, no, we can't do it. But they've had quite a lot of time. You know, it's not like last year. Everyone was told, you know, you have to go peat free. Do you think there is a legitimate agenda for a lot of people or, or are people still being blinkered and just hoping if they keep complaining, it will go away? And the ban will just… No one will hear about it again?
Simon:
I think there's quite a few different types of perspectives on this, to be fair. One of the main ones for me is the commercial side of things. So we know, and the industry knows, we can produce good quality, high performing peat free’s, but that costs more than the peat based compost. So I mean, Dan can talk certainly from the sales side of things, how difficult it is to get into a retail market if you're producing a product that's more expensive than an existing product that works.
You know, that's where I think retailers potentially need to look at their offering and, you know, really understand… are you making a choice because you want to be sustainable and you want to protect peatlands? Or are you just trying to sell products to get people through the door? You know, and that I’m probably speaking slightly out of turn there. But I think for me, the commercial side of things is the biggest challenge. We know we can do it. We've got the raw materials, we understand how to make the products and how to make them work, because research and development has been going on for years. But from a retail point of view, that price point is a real sticking point. And I mean, in terms of the RHS and what they're doing is absolutely fantastic. I mean, the large scale trials that Alastair and, Raghavendra are doing are amazing, and they will come out with hopefully like a textbook of, you know, the rules of do's and don'ts for peat free and they will share that. The problem is now, today, we still need good quality peat free product in the market. And the only way that's going to happen is either: legislation comes in and supports other industries that are potentially taking material that we could use and giving it a higher subsidy. Or we change the landscape of what we offer our customers. And we don't, you know, offer a cheap three for 12, peat multi-purpose, because most people say peat’s been cheap for too long.
Kate:
Absolutely. Yeah. No, I totally agree. Yeah.
Simon:
You know when we started, we perhaps didn't think about the environmental issues at that time. And so, you know, that's what we did. We've used the material that worked well. As we've got more knowledge and time has gone on. We know now that it's not the best thing to be digging up peat. And so we, we should really want to transition.

Kate:
Yeah. Yeah. I think going back on what you said about, you know, I think peat’s been cheap for too long. I mean, I really think that is it's kind of undervaluing what it is we do, isn't it? I mean, as a gardener, when I used to kind of charge hourly rates, you know, people would bulk sometimes and yet they'll pay £45 to get their eyelashes curled, you know. So it is seeing the kind of gardening and horticulture as a really important industry. And yet people will pay £20, £30 for a plant, another £20 for the pot and yet kind of balk at paying a fiver for a bag of compost. So yeah, I think it's just turning horticulture around and getting it appreciated. So yeah that's a great answer. Thank you.
Phil:
I've never paid £45 to get my eyelashes curled.
Kate:
Well that's where you're going wrong Phil!
Simon:
So yeah I've paid it to have my hair cut either!
Phil:
So Simon's touched on the fact on two things. One is, sort of consumer use of peat free compost and then, and also, more, on an industrial scale. So the more horticultural, you know, nurseries and that sort of thing using, compost as well, peat free compost and the difficulties there. Are you supplying both or are you just focussed on the consumer?
Dan:
We've historically only supplied hobbyists. And, and that is probably, well, where we'll stay, although I feel now with the peat free products that we're producing, the quality is there to move into the commercial market. I think I'd be fully confident of that. Yeah.
Phil:
Right. And something that Simon mentioned also, was the fact that you're getting really good results from that and it's being sort of tested, not just internally, but by external people have been testing it and achieving, really good results. So can you either one of you telling us a little bit more about that and about the results that you've seen.
Simon:
So, yeah, the products have all, gone through what we call the P7 protocol, which is the, GMA's sort of standard performance test, which is very laboratory based, essentially. Growing petunias and tomatoes. We’ve done three rounds of that now, and each time we've put in some competitors in there, we've also put in some of our research and development formulations to keep our eye on, you know, what's happening in the industry and how things are progressing.
And we've also utilised a large grower up in the north east, who is the dahlia grower, who wins awards, and I'm sure you probably know who it is. And they've used the material that Dan prepared for us with a slightly different formulation but very similar. And that was done on a commercial scale. So, we've, there's many more, but we've spent a lot of time making sure that the trials, are accurate, fair and diverse. Because it's very important, there are a lot of different plant species, and they all do like different things. And the years of, you know, multi-purpose compost is not really a thing. Multipurpose. You can't really produce a good quality seed sowing compost that works as well for, you know, a mature tree.
So we tailored the range to make sure that there's, you know, a sort of a journey that there's a seed and cutting, so there is a multi-purpose. There's an organic, if you feel that that's what you would prefer to use. And so, yeah, the range is, is just, we've just tested it to within an inch of its life, but with that because trials often people say, oh, trials are trials. And what we've done is made sure that the supply chains of the raw materials are very strong, so that the consistent raw materials go into the bag. That then enables us to know that each bag that comes off the line is going to be the same quality, with the same characteristics within parameters, obviously.
That's one of the big things that has to happen. Make sure those raw materials that are coming to your site before you bag them, go through the quality control process. They meet the specification, then blend them together, then double check final specification. And that then allows for consistency. And you know, for the consumer get the same result time and time again.
Phil:
Right. So thinking about those raw materials Dan maybe you could answer this. So can you tell us a bit about the ingredients that you're using in your compost now and how difficult you found that transition in the process. Now?
Dan:
Yeah, I can. We have found it, quite challenging over the years because, obviously peat was very easy to harvest and very easy to handle. But, going back over the last 15 years, we've developed a product called Grow Boost. And it’s a product that we produce ourselves. We, rent an airfield to be able to do that, we bring in PAS100 green compost and we blend with it other materials, and we store it in Windrows. Then turn those windrows every week for ten weeks, which composts, the material. Heats it up to over 60 degrees. And then we double screen the material so that we're taking any oversized, materials, which was, very strange to a concept to sort of get my head around because we were buying screened materials, but…
Kate:
Still got a screen it.
Dan:
You would be amazed on some of the things that we screen out, or some of the sizes of things that we screen out. But yeah, we've perfected that, product now and we're very, very happy with it. And that makes up one of our ingredients of our new, peat free mixes. And the newest one, which is very different to us, is a, what we call Grow Fibre, that's needed quite a lot of investment in machinery, to be able to put together.
So we use coir, we blend the coir with, shredded wood fibre that we bring in in bales. And it's unique to us in the UK at the moment. And its uniqueness is that it comes from one species of tree.
Kate:
Right. Okay.
Dan:
So we know its properties. There's not a blend of different woods that react differently. So we know its, properties. So when the, wood fibre is shredded, and reopened from, you know, being compressed in a bale, it's got short fibres and we need to blend the coir in amongst those short fibres to keep it open, otherwise it would flatten itself again.
So, yeah, we're very, very pleased with that product. And it's, it's light in density and light in colour as well. So, it helps, fill a bag and it's, we know it's nutrient value. And it doesn't, you know, weigh a lot like, some of the other ingredients do.
And one of the other ingredients we use is, composted bark fines. Lots and lots of people do, but you just need to make sure that you get a good source of composted bark fines. And it's repeatable and reliable.
Kate:
Okay. I mean, this all sounds like massive financial costs for the company. And again, there's just there's not the support out there, is it? There's not grants that you can get as a company to make this change. So I mean are you finding that the cost is paying off or is that going to be kind of a real long term investment?
Dan:
Well, it's a it's a very valid point. Yes. We have made a lot of investment of our own bat. There was talk of some grants to be had for development and, new machinery for moving into peat free. But I mean, we didn't, you know, wait for any confirmation that we wanted to get ahead of the game, so we've made the investment.
Yes. I do feel that the investment will pay off. But until such time as there is legislation, people, are not made by peat free, but people are not allowed to go back to the safety blanket of buying peat based products. The investment won't pay off. No.
Kate:
Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. So this is something that, you know, the HTA and, do you find, the Garden Media Association are really fighting for would you say, Simon?
Simon:
There's certainly help in terms of, technical information and how to get the best results out of peat free growing media. But in terms of financial support, I don't know of anything that's, you know, really helping retailers or manufacturers. I don't think there's any grants available. I don't think there's any research and development, you know, cash that's floating around.
I do know that the HTA had looked into, a scheme that the government was potentially offering for farmers, and but I'm not entirely sure where that's up to. But, I mean, the issue main issue is we need to be doing this now, you know, to be able to if we're going to try and hit 2026, ‘28, ‘30 for professional, we need the time to be able to get all this equipment in, blend the materials. And it takes time. Because the hardest thing is making a business decision to invest in something that hasn't been legislated against, you know, Durstons have done it off their backs. Some of the other companies have done it as well. But fundamentally, it's a risk for a company. And especially, we talked earlier about the large-scale growers.
You know what, what's the incentive really for them to go peat free if it's likely to cost them more. And, you know, potentially they could get more failures. It's a difficult one. So I think certainly the main thing is: start as early as you can and work with you grow media manufacturer
Phil:
So Dan, as a smaller company, do you feel it's been a harder journey for you than maybe some of the larger businesses out there?
Dan:
Yeah, I would probably agree with that. We've had to make, lots of investment in new machinery, like I mentioned earlier. We've had to buy more land, to do these operations on, and we've also had to spend a lot of money, with research and development and trials, etcetera, etcetera, to get where we are now.
Phil:
Yeah. So those costs are the same, whether you're a small business or a big business. Really, aren’t they?
Dan:
Absolutely.
Phil:
Yeah. So coming to both of you now, what misconceptions do, gardeners have about peat free composts? And how do you address these, when engaging with customers, do you think?
Simon:
I think I would say it's more of a fear. They've heard a horror story from somebody. They bought peat free, from a friend, a neighbour, and it killed their plants, you know? And so there's that, nervousness for the consumer to transition. We've done over the years with some of my other projects, quite a lot of polling that suggests that actually, most people are literally just going for a price point, they don't really understand that there’s peat there or what it is. And you know, that just go into.. You know, they've chosen the plant they want and the pot they want, as we said. But the compost is like the tertiary product that they purchase. And, you know, they just look and choose. So I think that's an issue.
Kate:
I think what we did say before as well, people have said on the podcast before, is that very much you're kind of older traditional gardeners, they're the ones that are, that are really not into peat free because of what they've been used to for so long, and that that the younger generation or the lockdown gardeners don't really even know about peat free. They're just, as she said, that just buying compost. And they go on social media a lot. And there's a lot of kind of chatter on social media about, oh my goodness, you know, you'll find syringes in compost, you'll find Stanley knives. And it’s full of plastic. It's full of this. And coir is just as bad for the environment. And so there's so much kind of misinformation and miseducation out there. How do you feel we can tackle this?
Simon:
I suppose it starts with everybody producing good quality peat free products. That's the key here. If we allow product to go onto the market that isn't fit for purpose or substandard, then that's obviously going to damage the reputation. With that comes the commercial question. You know, in terms of the cost being slightly more expensive.
And again, without legislation, it's difficult because why would you change from what you've always done if peat still available? And why would you try something else? If you know, as far as you're concerned, you're a gardener, so, you're a green person anyway. You’re growing plants, you know, you're not polluting the environment or anything because you're doing something that's natural. So it's a hard sell. But I mean, mainly education is needed. To help people understand, you know, from a green compost point of view, the biggest education piece there, is what a lot of consumers have no idea about, is the materials that they put in their green waste bin, gets composted and then they buy it back the year after. Either as a soil improver, or as a component in that multipurpose that they're purchasing.
So don't put things in the bin that aren't organic and that can't compost because they come from unfortunately us householders not necessarily recycling properly.
Kate:
Yes, Yeah. Yeah that that's a real big one that education is desperately needed for. But I don't think that should be on us so much. On the horticultural industry. It needs to be on, you know, the people collecting those bins and the homeowner, you know, don't put your plastic labels or your plant pots or even worse, in those green or brown bins.
How about you, Dan? Do you have any kind of words of wisdom or advice that we can offer to home gardeners?
Dan:
The main message is that, not all peat free’s are the same, that that would be my message. And, you know, it's down to us as a business. Now to get the message out there through various channels that, our peat free is, you know, a very, very good quality, peat free. We're very proud of it. And it's shown us excellent results.
And we need now for the general public to try and embrace it.
Kate:
Yeah. And really, we need some legislation in place, don't we? So that the inferior products that are just not out there for people to buy? Not quite sure how we're going to how that's going to happen, but it's so needed.
Dan:
Yeah. Absolutely. That, legislation and obviously the legislation for the, the ending of peat use.
Kate:
Yeah, that would help.
Simon:
There are also two other pieces of work, one that’s completed that most of the manufacturers utilise, which is the Responsible Sourcing Scheme. So, and Durston’s is a member, the Responsible Sourcing Scheme, looks at the materials that you're utilising and goes through raters and scorers to work out how sustainable those products are. And there's loads of information on the website if somebody wants to have a further look at that.
And equally, the, Growing Media Manufacturers Council, the latest group, some of professional manufacturers, are looking at producing, a PAS type standard so that there is a baseline quality line. And unfortunately, though this takes time, but, it's it is important that the industry has a standard and, that we all work to it.
Kate:
Definitely. Yeah. We had to, Steve Harper on the podcast a while ago talking about the RSS. So thank you for mentioning that again, definitely, it's useful. The more people talk about it, the more it gets heard. And then hopefully the more people start using it and reading, the labels and understanding what it is. So, do you feel that it is important for home gardeners to just use peat free compost now to really start getting to use it?
Simon:
The more you use it, the better you get at it. It's just like anything, you know, the sooner you try. At the moment you're not forced to utilise peat free. So you know, get ahead of the curve, try different manufacturers, try different brands. Once you find one you like, you know, keep with it and understand the watering that's slightly different. The nutritional needs of your plants. The look, the feel everything because it is different. But that doesn't mean that it's bad, and that doesn't mean that it won't work. Most of the trials we've done and have shown the Durston’s peat free is better than 100% peat as a control. So we put the 100% professional peat as a control and test. And we were getting at least 20, 30% bigger plants than a peat based. But actually, it's an opportunity as well for home gardeners that actually they could get bumper crops, you know, and bigger blooms etcetera. Don't be nervous. My main thing is try. And if it doesn't work the first time, look, this is horticulture, it's a lifetime passion of most. You know. Don’t blame yourself, keep going, and you will find success and you'll find a brand that you like.
Kate:
I like that. You know, gardening is a lifelong process. You know: every day is a school day. And I think people are just too impatient, aren't they, when it comes to compost. So just yeah, take your time. Don't buy the cheapest buy, you know, something that you can trust and something that has like yourselves, done all the trials and is really happy with the results. So yeah, I like that.
Phil:
So aside from the peat free agenda, what do you think are some of the biggest challenges that the garden sector is facing right now?
Dan:
There's, there's lots going on in the garden industry at the moment. And, obviously the peat debate is, a major part of that. But, the, the weather we've had over the last season as really not that, certainly our industry, our part of the industry, the growing media part because, it just shortens the season because it was just so wet and cold, started this year that, the season really didn't get going until mid-April.
Phil:
Anything else?
Dan:
Well, as Simon mentioned, also, The Watering of Peat Free is a good educational piece that needs to be, highlighted, because people are, over watering or under watering, you know, they're, they're killing their plants by under watering, and they're flushing nutrients out by overwatering. So, yeah, there's, there's, there's lots to learn.
Kate:
It's education. Isn't it? Key because I also sometimes help on a complaint, a care line, complaints line. And one of the big thing was I've been growing tomatoes for over 30 years, and I've never had results like this. And as as she was saying, you've got to change the way you're gardening. So it is getting getting those that getting that out, getting that out there and, and not trying to insult people who have been going for years.
But, yeah, just gently leading them in the right direction.
Phil:
Where do you think the responsibility for that education piece lies, do you think is is it the right chairs or is it the garden centres or is it the manufacturers?
Simon:
It’s everyone, it has to be a collective approach because we all come at it from a different angle. And the information required is different at different levels as well. And I think that's why it's so challenging. You know, I consider myself as well a gardener, but somebody else may consider themselves as an amateur gardener, but actually they've probably got quite a lot of knowledge.
Whereas another person has no knowledge whatsoever. So it's very difficult to tailor the information. And, and I think there's just got to be loads more information going out and helping people. I see quite a lot of funny things on TikTok, you know, that actually made it more accessible to some younger people as well to get them inspired.
And I often talk too techie, so I'm not usually one to be put in front of the camera because people are like, “what is he talking about?” I think sometimes you just need layman's terms, you know, that make it assessable to everyone.
Kate:
Oh, I think the way you've talked to us today is, is very easy to understand. I think you've come across.
Simon:
Oh good, I’ve been in years of training!
Phil:
So, Dan what are your plans for the future of Durstons? Have you got new products, or initiatives on the horizon that you can tell us about?
Dan:
Yeah. We, as I said, as I mentioned earlier, we've, just recently invested, in new land, which is, an old industrial, peat factory actually, it was where, the Fisons company used to operate, which is only 2 or 3 miles away from us. We've actually purchased that site and we're, midway through, making some changes and, developing the site so that we can use it as an additional factory in the future.
Phil:
Okay. And it says that for developed, just furthering your, sort of manufacturing capability or are there specific, products and things in mind that you've got for that?
Dan:
It's just, well, we're already using it to produce our grow fibre product. We've changed the structure of a building, then there so that we can fit the machinery in there. We can produce the coir and produce the grow fibre. And we're raising the, we're improving the surface of the yard space so that we can, possibly, use that for raw materials as well.
And there's a building there that we could possibly, repair and replace and put in a new factory for, for expansion.
Kate:
Goodness. And is your Grow Fibre, is that is that a patented, material?
Simon:
The technology that's used to produce the fibres is a patented technology. Yeah.
Kate:
Right. Okay. Interesting. So I think we're going to finish off I think we've, we've done lots of, interesting conversations on peat free. In fact Phil, you don't need to do any editing for free special. I think we've got it right here! But, do you both enjoy gardening? I mean, Simon, you've already said that you love plants. What about you, Dan? Are you are you a gardener or is it just you work in the factory?
Dan:
I'm a lazy gardener, but I do enjoy gardening. I use irrigation systems, and I've got a robot mower. But I do enjoy, baskets and planters. Both winter and summer. I actually do like a winter basket. Yeah.
Kate:
Nice. Nice. And so, do either of you have a favourite plants or flower that, however kind of rubbish you feeling that will always put a smile on your face?
Dan:
I like cyclamen. I think they're my favourite.
Kate:
Yeah. I've lovely, there's been some amazing new varieties of cyclamen around. Let's just look incredible and some are fragrant as well. Yeah, I'm going to look at those. But I do love just the classic autumn flowering ones.
Phil:
Is there a reason for that, Dan?
Dan:
No not really, I just I just think they're really pretty little flowers. And I always put them in my, in my, winter baskets.
Simon:
They always die when I get them. And that's not a good thing to eat the right. I think I have a water.
Kate:
I was going to say, because they, they look so delicate, yet they're so hardy. But, Yeah, obviously not for everybody.
Simon:
No. Well, even the experts have failures. That's my job.
Kate:
Every single tomato of mine got blight this year. It was a disaster, heart breaking. So, Simon...
Simon:
Mine, I’ve only found it relatively recently. Is a night scented flox, and I ended up buying about seven of them. The flowers only open in the evening, and the perfume that comes from them can fill the whole of my back garden. It is absolutely stunning. So yeah, that would be my current favourite, but I swap like weekly what my favourite is!
Kate:
Lovely.
Phil:
Fantastic. That's interesting. You saying about the opening up in the evening. So I was reading something, a few weeks ago about during Victorian times, there was a fashion for creating, a flower clock which opened at different times of day. Why? It would go round and…
Simon:
That would be amazing. Because things like crocuses, as soon as they get a little bit of sun on them, they’re right out. Oh, wow.
Phil:
I never knew it was a thing, but there you go!
Kate:
Phil, I'm getting worried about you. You’re getting more and more into horticulture.
The bug bites, it always does.
Phil:
Exactly. Anyway, I think that's a good place to leave it, so I just want to say thank you so much, Simon and Dan, for joining us today. It’s been fascinating finding out about, the business and about your transition to peat free, it’s been really interesting.
Kate:
Yes. Thank you so much for your time.
Simon:
No problem. Thank you very much.
Dan:
Thanks for having us, thank you.