Phil
We're delighted to welcome onto the underground today Beth Johnson, who is the CEO of Umbrella, a promotions agency. Welcome, Beth.

Beth:
Hi. Thanks, Phil, for having me.

Phil:
It's our pleasure. Beth, perhaps we could start by you just telling me a bit about what we mean by promotions agency.

Beth:
Yeah, I have to admit, it's a really old fashioned term. And honestly, there's been so many variations of it through the years. We've had Below the Line agency. We've had promotions and incentives, sales, promotions. But I think really in modern day times, it's really what it means is a creative marketing agency which specialises in helping you drive data and drive sales in retail environments, as well as online.

Phil:
Fantastic. That's nice and clear. So, Beth, you obviously have run over the years and thousands of different promotions. Can you just tell us what the key benefits are of running a brand promotion?

Beth:
Yeah, the key benefits are really, the metrics that you would expect on any campaign. It's brand equity. It's brand awareness. It's brand, purchase consideration. It takes you all the way through that path to purchase right down to the bottom of the sales funnel to where you're actually making that purchase, converting it, and then going, should I purchase again?
So I think, promotional marketing really, has an important role within that path to purchase it. It doesn't answer the question for every single element in path to purchase, you know, building brand equity or building those other things. Those can sometimes happen elsewhere. But we definitely are important when it comes time to adding that extra kick to getting that consumer to like, maybe leave their data so you can talk to them again, follow them, or actually purchasing.

Phil:
Right, okay. Have you got any examples that can help bring that to life for our listeners?

Beth:
One of our clients is Cadbury. And to like give you an example. So we've worked with them probably for about ten years now. And many years ago they started down the path of, going into sports sponsorship. And so how that then, translated into a shopping environment was these campaigns were around incentives and, oh, you could win tickets to matches and all that kind of stuff.
But, it was it was a new beginning for them. And over the course of time they got better at it. And they've learned, how to manage maybe… and I'm going to say that's a brand partnership, but it could be anything about your brand… You know, Cadbury stands for generosity. So really what using promotions have done for them now is they've been able to embed their overall, brand values. So it follows right the way through. So it may have an overall effect around football and football might deliver that message and it might be in a mess in a football way. They just, launched a new campaign this week. It's called Game Changers. Now it's about people that really are generous with their time, and it changes a lot of lives.
So, they were able to take that generosity. Now, what we'll do is we'll take that thread and we'll move that into a retail environment. So all the way along the path to purchase, they've now embedded in their brand values. So, I think that's what's really important about promotional marketing is that it moves you along. It starts out with the brand equity and the brand awareness and but every single touchpoint, right until you buy that product, you are immersed in what that brand is about.
So, I think that's one of the really, really important things that, that it gives you. And, that game changer, it could be that a retail campaign (and we haven't come up with one yet), but it could be we have a campaign where, you just vote for your favourite game changer. So it will have started with the big table top idea, and it'll move its way all the way down through the funnel to where it gets you to go “Oh that's lovely, I'd like to nominate somebody,” then you buy your bar chocolate. That's quite simplistic. I hope Cadbury aren't listening, because that's what one of my ideas that was off the cuff.

Phil:
And so is that something that you'd recommend to anybody coming to you? You know, that, if they’re running a promotion, it would be an extension of their brand values. It would help embody their brand as a whole?

Beth:
Yeah. I mean, that is such that is just one of the pillars of promotional marketing is that you have to ensure that it embodies your values. But, I mean, I think the garden sector, much like the grocery sector, is different in that you've got all these brands that sell within a third party retail environment. So you've also got to meet your customers objectives as well.
So somebody like Cadbury's got to meet Tesco's objectives and they both of those brand values need to align to make sure that that campaign works for both.

Phil:
Okay. Fantastic. So what makes a brand or a product particularly well-suited for promotion then?

Beth:
Well, I think, this one's really funny for me because you can just picture, Wrigley's a Wrigley's gum versus a box of Cheerios. I mean, that I don't want to say that, it's impossible for somebody with a small amount of packaging to do something, but I do think that there is an advantage to having awesome packaging, which is a little bit bigger because it allows you to tell your message. People forget that their product is, their owned media, so everything on the outside of that product is owned by you, the brand, so you can put on it whatever you want to put on it. So, I would say sometimes you're at a disadvantage if you're a tiny, tiny product because you really have to use those other comms to work really hard for you.

Phil:
Yeah. So like POS or whatever.

Beth:
Yeah. All of that. Yeah.

Phil:
Okay. So are there any certain criteria that actually would indicate a promotion will be successful?

Beth:
You know, I've seen so many campaigns that they're just like, we're just going to run this campaign is just going to be on point of sale, or it's going to be on pack, and they just don't work. You actually have to work harder at it than just, I would say, product stickering, you know, putting a neck collar on a bottle and saying “buy me” you know, Alice in Wonderland, “drink me”. That just doesn't work because a lot of the consideration to purchase happens beforehand.
So what this is, is that last, kind of kick that you need? Not always, because a lot of times promotional marketing is very tactical. So, you know, we did a campaign with, I can't remember the wine brand, but it was around Wimbledon a few years ago, and, they put a neck collar on a bottle of wine, and it was just that kind of neon green ball colour. It didn't even say anything. It was just a ball. So, when you went down to the wine aisle or you could see was this kind of big pillar of neon green. So immediately you were like, oh, let's walk over here and have a look what that's about. So sometimes theatre on shelf would be good enough, but it's got to be very good.

Phil:
Okay. And we're talking about some unpacked promotions here. So do you also cover things like money back guarantees. Do they fall under your name as well?

Beth:
Yeah. I mean money back guarantees are really, really important in your kind of toolbox of mechanics to work with. They are, we would just call them cash backs. Because there's so many different variations of those. You can have quality guarantees, taste guarantees. Love me or I’m free. You know that to just a £5 cash back, they all are super important. And I find that brands use them. Really, when they've got a new product launch and they're trying to get some trial, or maybe somebody come out, or maybe their price point is a little high and people aren't sure that they're going to trust that brand enough to pay that price point. So, I think they have an important, result that they can provide if you have the right objective.

Phil:
So brand promotions, a huge in FMCG, but actually relatively underutilised in the garden sector. Why do you think that is?

Beth:
Well, this is a really good question. What I'm really scared to answer because I'm not a garden sector expert, but my gut is telling me one of the main reasons is that they don't have an organised media department internally. Now, I know that might sound a bit, a bit, kind of like, that's far fetched, like: Oh, wow, we've just jumped from promotions to media, but from a brand perspective, they're used to buying media. You know, brand managers and brand teams: this is what they do. They buy space places, they buy advertising, and they make those decisions based on, analytics and numbers that are provided to them. So generally speaking, you know, Tesco or if I am a CPG brand, if I go to Tesco and I'm like, look, I want to do something with you, but I need to know what I'm going to get in return. They can prove that by using their point of sale, by using maybe their database, maybe their CRM, by using their out-of-home. Exactly those measurements that you're trying to achieve for your campaign. So, what we can do is we can give you this much brand awareness. We can give you this much reach. We can actually pitch you, give you a gondola end, with point of sale, which is going to achieve what we believe most brands do when they get a gondola and around a 25% sales uplift.
So, for that we're going to charge you this. And then the brand goes, I've got my metrics. Okay. I can make a decision now. I can invest. And then what somebody like Tesco will say is, okay, so what are you going to put on that? That's going to make it special for the reason that we're going to give you this. So there's that bartering that goes on. But I think it's really those metrics; they understand it. And they kind of can go back internally and make the business case for the investment.
Another problem they might have is like transparency between garden centres. So one garden centre might be able to do something but another one doesn't. So or maybe the way they give numbers about their capabilities might be different. Which doesn't allow a brand to do a, what we would call, a nationwide campaign. So that means you utilise the packaging because… look, during the manufacturing process, it's very hard to go: oh these pallets only go to this one because these are promotional, you know, to change packaging is a lot of movement that has to happen within the print process and the runway to getting a campaign that's on pack, not on media, but on pack, can be a long one.
So there's a lot of time and investment, and to do that for maybe just one retailer can be a lot of disruption to the internal operations for a brand.

Phil:
Sure. So is that something that if some if one of our listeners, who owned a brand came to you, you would advise, you would give them your best, you know, from experience this is what you would need to do. This would be the difficulty. So how… Are there ways in which you can get around that?

Beth:
Yeah. There are ways in which you can get around it. It depends on everybody's supply chain really. And it also depends upon the retailer. So what we would do is we would just have to take a look at maybe what that brand has in their own arsenal. I mean, we would have a look at, what their, like, printing capabilities. We'd also have to look at what their customers capabilities are. Generally speaking, there is, a balance somewhere out there that you can find. I mean, there isn't, you know, too much.
I can tell you one time we did this thing for Finish Powerball, and we had to do gold power balls in the middle. So, I mean, if we can give away a gold Powerball of three out of all of, you know, Britain and Ireland, I'm sure we can make something work, but it does take longer. So I just think any brand listening needs to just take that on board, that it's a learning process and there's like investment in time talking to people.

Phil:
Okay. And talking of time. So timing is key in promotions. The garden sector is so heavily weather dependent. How do brands navigate the risks of maybe slow-moving stock or unpredictable demand?

Beth:
Well, I think that's such a good question. And, I would imagine anybody who's good at managing it, it's garden centres. We work with Unilever and, they, have a big ice cream portfolio. So, we've had to navigate our way around lots of things. And I think actually promotions are quite good because they can be tactical.
I think, always overstock, you know, having bad weather and having too much stock is the worst. I mean, if you can hold on to it, it's good until next year. It's got shelf life. Stuff like ice cream doesn't have the shelf life. So I think, every year is coming up with a new plan to, to be able to tactically go, what if this happens? What if that happens and have it ready to go?
And I think it's those types of Plan B's which really will make a good weather or a bad weather, stand out for you. I mean, there's for good weather and having short supply on stock really that an EPOS and a technical thing. You know, there's a lot of software out there that can be bought around weather that can help.
But Overstock, I mean, garden centres work a lot with charities. And I would say one way in which, a garden centre or a brand that supplies that garden centre can look at it is by digging back into those charities they work with and having a really, agile system for getting that oversupply into the charitable streams. And that can make some lovely social posts. It can be part of an overall strategy, but it also solves a business problem. So I think if you think really clever, and you think ahead of time, so you actually are prepared for those downtimes.
I mean, years ago up in, in, Leicester Square, you know, Haagen-Dazs regularly, you would see people in the rain holding stuff because they would just have this thing that, you know, and then they would do photo shoots around it and they would be like, oh, look at us, we're so popular in the rain in London. No, they just gave it away. Because it was just too much. So I think it's just a, you know, boxing clever.

Phil:
Right, fair enough. What are some of the other things that people can do as a promotion? You know, have you come across any sort of bizarre things or really clever ideas that you think, wow, that that was really good.

Beth:
Yeah. You know, right now, you know, life, you know, I'm older, I've got grandchildren and things have moved on with kind of digital and social media. And what's really interesting is seeing some of the way they're taking very like bog standard, what I would say is a promotional mechanic or lever and changing it. So, we're seeing a lot of stuff that's all around, VIP access, merch drops, things that are limited access only.
So, if you buy our product, you get access to Glastonbury tickets the hour before it goes live. I mean, those are the ones around music I think they've done a lot to. But Guinness is definitely getting into this. Cadbury's as well, especially around sporting and football shirts and that kind of thing. I think the garden sector has such a host, I mean, they just have an army of influencers and people that just love, you know, and follow, they have online followings. So yeah, I think from the garden sectors having this huge following and this online community that there are things that they will be able to do there, whether it's, you know, a new gardeners coming out with a new book, they're going to secure some signed ones, you know, oh, the first through that come through the door this, weekend are going to get the first 100 signed copies.
It's really thinking about how that can add value to the customers that come through your door in a real and meaningful way and stuff that they really like, you know, not always just, the cash backs. The cash backs we've talked about those. But really when you do a cash back, it devalues or an offer on shelf. So in other words, you're always on offer. Three for £16.99. You know, bags of compost are always three for £12.99, three for £16.99 whatever it is. I expect that's what they're always going to cost, because having it on offer all the time, like having cereal on offer for $2, you know, in Sainsbury's, it makes all of us shoppers go, that's all your product is worth.
So, doing particular mechanics, but doing them in a new way, which, a bit more of a modern way, can result in an out come which is still the same outcomes that you're looking for. Rate of sale drivers, brand awareness, brand engagement, purchase consideration. But in a way which embodies your brand and what you stand for.
And also, when you partner with somebody outside whether they create a, a new pair of welly boots which are crazily printed or do you know what I mean? They have something to do with, you know, somebody’s travelling around the world, and there's a pair of welly boots for every time the gardener touches that country and everyone's like: “oh, you know, I want that.” Having those types of things that are just one offs, that are made by somebody who's an artist, but it means a lot to your customers. I think that's important.

Phil:
OK. That's really cool. If I was a brand manager and I've not done promotions before, but I'm thinking, well, you know, actually what you're saying sounds really good and we'd like a piece of that. But I'm worried because, you know, and I don't want to expose my business to thousands, hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of cost because I've misjudged something. What would you say to someone like that? I mean, if there are things that they can do?

Beth:
Yeah. I think that there are, you just have to work with a specialist. You know, these things are really quite straightforward, but there are lot of minefields. Promotional marketing is heavily regulated. It's got a whole section that's put out by the ASA Advertising Standards Authority. It's called cap code. There's a whole section on cap code, for promotional marketing.
And yeah, you have got to get your terms and conditions. People think that a prize draw is really straightforward. Just put your name and a hat and, you know, somebody internally can pull it and we can just do it. It's not like that. We really, because we also do the digital side of the promotion marketing, so we collect the data, you know, we've had to jump through hoops. We work with Zurich as well. We work with, you know, Unilever, these big brands. You have got to have every policy, every kind of piece of data and compliance kind of in a row to be able to pass through these, hurdles. So I think that really working with an agency that understands, the data and compliance rules and regulations, but also, holds up to all of the ISO 27,001 and all the other things from a digital - from like actually holding data. Or if it's a brand or retailer and they have their own internal systems, then that's really what they need to say. We're going to manage that and that everything is just a plug in and the data is just passed through. But there's lots of people out there. There is the, IPM, which is Instituted of Promotional Marketing. And they have legal people on board there. Most brands will have their own legal teams to read over terms and conditions, but they're pretty straightforward. Just let professional have a look at it.

Phil:
That's good to know. People of a certain age, like myself, will remember the disastrous Hoovers free flights promotion from I think it was the 80s was it? What are the biggest pitfalls that brands should watch out for when running a promotion? And have you seen any sort of common mistakes that they fall into?

Beth:
Yeah, I think, it's so funny, the Hoover one. I will always say that this is a balancing act. So if you think about what is the price of your product, so what do they have to purchase to get a chance to win or to get free glass or to get a free trial or whatever it is? I buy this, I get that, or I get a chance to get it. What is that equation? So if we go back to the Hoover, campaign as an illustration of this, Hoover was saying, buy this Hoover, I don't remember at the time is actually I think it was ‘96 or ‘97, but, let's say they cost £200 or £300 at the time, they were quite expensive. But at that time, going to America was very expensive. And, the two did not equate to each other. So it was like, buy a hoover, throw it away and get the free flight for your family or whatever it was. And, so you have to think about it that way. There's, that… it's got to be a balance. You say to the your customer or your consumer, this is what I want from you, but this is what I’m going to give you. There's got to be an equation of fairness in that. And that will help guide you through those risk factors. Another one that's a real bugbear of mine is making false statements.
So, a brand will… and we get this quite a lot. They'll say, I want someone to buy this bottle or pack whatever it is and they're going to get X free. I just want everyone to get such and such. And you’re like, wow, that's a really rich offer. You know, like buy a - I don't know, pack a Guinness and get a t shirt or something like, wow, that's really rich.
Yes, I was going to say a free t shirt with every purchase. And then, you go on and talk to them and they start talking about budget and they say” oh yeah, yeah, so I've got a thousand t shirts to give away. And I'm like, you sell like 20 million products. Like, how is that fair. And they're like: yeah, but in the subtitle we're going to put to the first 1,000 to enter. And I'm like, and so, you know, and they could have spent weeks talking about this internally and then they're like, oh, we're just going to brief you on it. And I'm like, well, that's totally illegal campaign. So, making false statements. I think you have to be really true. And you have to, be fair to those people entering your campaigns and run a really good, you know, put them first, always in a campaign. So that's my other one.

Phil:
Right. So customers first.

Beth:
Yes.

Phil:
Make sure that you're being authentic with them. So, Beth how do you see the role of promotions evolving in the next, say five years?

Beth:
I think, if I were to talk about the role of promotions, I think personalisation is probably the biggest, which we see coming. There's a whole trifecta between AI, personalisation and digital, that is literally transforming the retail world at the moment. So, if you imagine - and I'm going to take it back to my space, back to grocery - if you imagine I show up to Tesco, I scan my Tesco Clubcard and I get my little widget for scanning my shop as I go. And I go around the shop and as I go around the shop, there's now digital screens and as I pass by a digital screen, it turns to me and says, Beth, you're looking for inspiration for dinner tonight. And I look at that screen and I'm like, what? And it says, and I'm like, push a button. Yes. And then I get a link in my phone and it says, oh, here's a recipe. And at the bottom of the recipe are some coupons or maybe a cashback, or maybe, buy this and you'll get something. But there's now technology that's happening in retail that's tracking, your shopping cart to your app. And it's letting those digital screens now.
So now I'm going to change that, to you fill the same exact journey. You walk into Tesco, get a trolley, do the same journey as me. But two minutes later you go by and, that same digital screen and the digital screen says, Phil, Phil, did you know the match was on tonight? You're going to pick up some Budweiser?
Okay, I'm being a bit sexist there in terms of, you know, I'm cooking and you're watching sport. And so, apologies.

Phil:
No, that's fine by me!

Beth:
But I'm just trying to show the difference. And that's where the personalisation comes in. That's kind of knowing who you are knowing probably why you're here because it's registered there’s cultural moments going on, that you've done shopping for these particular products during cultural moments. And the creative might look different. The tone of voice, because maybe it doesn't talk, but all of that is what I see as that personalisation, and that is what people are going to be purchasing in droves.

Phil:
Yeah. So just taking that sort of not necessarily one step further, but maybe, it wouldn't have to be a screen in a store. It could be, you might have a loyalty app.

Beth:
Yep. It could just be an NFC chip within point of sale some place like that. There are other ways. There are steps before that happens. Certainly. But it is that personalisation of knowing what you are looking for, and therefore it's tailoring and personalising the messaging and the creative. So then if I am 34 and have two kids, the creative that I receive could be completely different because I just might like colours.
But when I go at 57, go in the next one, I might get the same offer, but my colours might be totally different because visually to me it's more appealing to be delivered in a different way. And so yeah, I'm really excited for that.

Phil:
Yeah. So, it's interesting. I was having a chat with someone just the other day about loyalty schemes within garden centres and most garden centres, especially the chains, have their own, loyalty scheme, and you sign up for that and you either get a card or an app and what have you. And they capture so much information about, you know, what you're doing. So they could be using those.

Beth:
They could be. And you know, the interesting thing for me being that I really, spend a lot on plants, so, yeah, any garden centres out there that want to work with us, we might be able to do a trade. Is that, they don't do anything with my data. That's the real, you know, I can't think of anything that I've had - maybe Blue Diamond, maybe I've had an email from them, if I can remember, but… And I think that's probably from a brand perspective, they want to see how you've done that, how you've grown it, not let that kind of data go stale. That's so important. And these loyalty schemes, I mean, there's so… brands really have the ability to drive traffic into a retail environment or a garden sector environment. And, and if you allow the brands to do it as a retailer, so we use a plug and play, so a brand will go out and say, here is a discount, go take it in-store. It's good this weekend. That will be on their own out of home media, that they'll have put elsewhere or online. It won't be anything to do with that retailer, but the brand will have pushed it. And as a bartering tool, they will have said to the likes of Tesco or Sainsbury's this weekend we are going to be sending people in to store to you. So, over that weekend, so maybe we can get the media a little cheaper.
So, it's all a pull. But for them they know that they're going to go and buy their product. But also, the retailer knows that what the average basket spend is, what somebody gets through the door. And you know, years ago I think at Tesco, Morrisons, one of them, it was like anybody going in from one thing to Tesco always spent £23. That was just how it is. So that extra footfall, they could actually, ladder back what the return on investment was going to be for them.

Phil:
Fantastic. So, I mean, this sounds like a really great opportunity. So, would you suggest that for a brand to connect with, one of these, garden centre chains and just see what, what the opportunities could be?

Beth:
Yeah, I definitely think so. I think sometimes and I don't work in that world, but I do work with a lot of customer marketing teams at brands. And when those relationships become really transactional, everyone's doing their job and we're buying and selling, and it's moving on, and it's a lot about the operations. But yeah, sitting down and doing a big planning day, I think - sitting down and saying, okay, what have you got? Because actually, where we're sitting from, we want to grow our business within theres. And you show them your roadmap of what new products you have coming out and talk about maybe you've got problems, maybe there's been, you know, water shortages and prices are going up. I mean, this is what the reality is today. And I think having a planning session and so actually saying to them, look, we're going to get our guys together, we're going to get your guys together. We are actually going to get outside of our offices, and we're going to have a brand planning day, a strategy day with our with our core customers. And, everyone's going to present back and forth. And this is where you find out where the retailer has, find out about their charities, find out what they're trying to achieve over the next year, how they're trying to deepen their ties within their community because retailers have their own problems. So, the garden centres are going to say, you know, oh, yeah, I know there's been problems - or I don't know, road's blocked, people aren't coming… A competitor has set up, you know, you know, Lidl is now selling plants. Look that's a reality as well. You know, we will help you with that.
And if everybody understands, everybody's, key objectives and problems, I think they can sit around the table and work it out and come up with a good strategy.

Phil:
Yeah. Excellent. So, Beth, if you had one golden rule for running a successful promotion, what would it be?

Beth:
Well, I can't think of one golden rule. Because there's just like many. I think the biggest one is, is that you have to know what your problem is or what your objective is, and then you have to go after it in a way which is authentic to your brand values and, and in a way which is easy for your consumer, or customer. You can't leave them out of the equation. Those three things are all interchangeable, and they all have to work fluidly together. So it's not one. But I think that's there's magic when those things can happen.

Phil:
Brilliant. What's the rule of three?

Beth:
It's the rule of three.

Phil:
Excellent. So Beth, we're going to, bring things to a close now and I understand that you are a big plant enthusiast.

Beth:
Well, I'm a purchaser. I'm not saying I keep things alive.

Phil:
Well, that's the best kind from a retailer's point of view!
So, Beth, what plant or flower would always put a smile on your face and why?

Beth:
Well, I it's just a really common one, but it's, I would call it an Achillea or a Yarrow. Just, a just a common you see him growing in hedges, but there's one variant which is like a pink salmon and I just think is absolutely sunshine. And they literally are just these flat little cushions that just stand up, stare up at the sun, and the insects all land on them, and you don't have to give them very much love, but they give a lot. So that is my favourite. Probably a little bit too bog standard.

Phil:
No. Not at all. Not at all. It's a personal choice. That sounds great. Well, listen, Beth, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you and understanding a bit more about the promotions industry and actually seeing what opportunities there are within the garden sector. I think it's something which has been relatively untapped and, yeah, could be really exciting.

Beth:
Excellent. Thanks so much for having me.