So welcome back to another episode of The Underground. This week I'm delighted to welcome Jane Lawler is a marketing and business consultant, the former chair of GIMA and also currently part of the HTA Board of Directors. Welcome, Jane.

Hi, Jane.

Thank you very much for inviting me.

So let's just start at the beginning. Let's have some background about you. For anyone who doesn't know you, could you just give us a little bit of background about who you are, where you've come from, your business journey, all that kind of stuff?

Yeah, sure. So, I actually did a science degree, expecting, I think, to go into agriculture or plant biology or plant breeding or something of that nature. And I was applying for jobs back in the 80s when we were just coming out of that awful time when there were no jobs. And I fell upon and was introduced to David Hession, Doc Hession, who wrote some of the best selling gardening books ever. And I ended up going to work for David Hession in his agriculture and gardening products business. And I started off as a field trials officer, so I was kind of doing the science in the field, and that's how I kind of fell into gardening by accident. And I've worked in gardening ever since.

You've done a lot of jobs in that sort of marketing role. So how did you get out of the field into the sort of more office space?

Yeah. Well, I think what happened was I was doing I was doing field work and, in those days, product companies often had a telephone hotline because we don't have those anymore, do we? Because we have chat bots and internet and Facebook and Instagram and stuff. But in those days, we had a phone line, and we used to publish that on the packaging of all the products. And so gardeners were invited to phone up to chat and talk about their problems and find out how to use the products. And so, because I was in the field, I quite often got dragged in to help on the phone because I was using the products and kind of knew first hand. And that's kind of how I got introduced to marketing. So, kind of from customer services and then thinking about, you know, you start to think about, well, how do you communicate with customers about the product and how do you help them get the best out of it. And it's not far from there until you slide into how do you market the product to make it most attractive to the consumer? So I think that's the way I got into marketing. And you’re right Phil, I then did kind of junior product management roles and I did, marketing manager roles. Ended up working much bigger corporations doing head of marketing roles, and the last corporate job I had was actually for a business that is now, sadly, no more, which was Gardman, which at the time was the single largest supplier of gardening products in the UK. And I was a marketing director there up until, about 2013, I think, and then I set up my own business consultancy, and that's what I've been doing ever since.

Excellent. So what is it about marketing that particularly attracts you, do you think?

I think quite early on, I got quite engaged with an interested in a more scientific approach for marketing because, so often people think of marketing as, and I get told off for using this term, but I'm going to say it anyway, colouring in, you know, the colouring in department. You know, they basically dress things up to make them look attractive and engaging. Persuade people that it would be, you know, but that dressing up, so frequently was, glorified colouring in, and I found that a bit frustrating. And so I was quite interested in going down a slightly more metric route to understanding marketing. So what I do for companies when I help them with marketing projects is I help them get to the crux of the question and the answer using data, and using insight, and using information. So in other words, turning it into slightly more of a scientific approach. And I think that's what really makes me tick.

Being able to justify, why something is so coloured the way it is, why it's packaged the way it is, why it's priced the way it is, why it's presented in a certain way. What are the, the key features and benefits, and why have you pulled them out? And having that in a evidence based marketing box is really what kind of makes me tick, I suppose.

Yeah, so there's, like, a rationale for all those things.

Yes. It's not just, muck and mystery. There is a there is a logic. There's a logic. And I enjoy that that part very much.

That's interesting to hear because often, usually when budget cuts are being made, marketing teams tend to often get the biggest brunt of it, don't they.

They do. Yeah. Quite often that that is the case. Because people think that marketing is somehow the decorative piece on the top. But of course, done properly - and it can be sometimes it is, sometimes it is indulgent - but if done properly, it's kind of the beginning of the story, not the end. Because it's marketing who would help define how you position a product, how you communicate to the consumer and how you make your product compelling. Without that, you've got no starting block, you know, when it comes to product marketing. So you're right. I think it is often, an early casualty of budget cutting. Quite often not the people. It's usually just the budget that gets cut. The people are just left sitting there with nothing to spend.

So you mentioned earlier there about your scientific approach, which I really like that, I like the idea of that and being able to measure particular things. And you mentioned about consumer insights. Can you just tell me a little bit more about how you find consumer insights and, you know, the importance that they play in the way you think about marketing?

Yeah, I suppose, it kind of begins with segmentation, really, in terms of working out who your customer is or sorry, your consumer. And there's lots of ways of doing that. Funnily enough HTA have some great segmentation where they've taken the whole, gardening public, if you like, and segmented them into logical groups, and then you start to hone in on the typical behaviours, of those particular groups and look at the demographics of those groups, and it just helps you focus on a particular set of consumers, because in the end, if you have a ubiquitous offer that is great for everybody, it ends up being great for nobody, particularly, I think, in the last 20 or 30 years. I mean, one of the examples I look at is, go look at the toothpaste fixture in your local supermarket. Now when I was a kid, there was probably two brands of toothpaste. And now there's several brands. But not only that, within the brand, Sensodyne is a really good example, you're going to look at the Sensodyne brand, and there are about 15 different variants, and they're all positioned slightly differently. Part of that is about brands wanting to command space on the shelf, but part of it is also about targeting the individual consumer needs. And so their segmentation studies work out that some people have got very sensitive teeth, and some people actually, they just want white teeth and some people are more worried about their bad breath. And so for me that segmentation is kind of step one, if you like, in terms of working out who the consumer is. And then Phil you mentioned insight. Insight's classically done with interviews and focus groups and those kind of things. And they're useful. Funnily enough I was just doing some online research, which is all done digitally these days, and you can get your research questions back in eight hours, it's fantastic. And it's so cheap these days. So all of these things are really important. But what I would say is that all of that data, all of that information, all of that research you do, you have to think of it like a light. So when you start your journey, the room is dark. You know there's things in there. You know there's some opportunities in there. There's signposts to various things. But the room is dark. You can see nothing. All that the research does is shines a light. So now you could see. It doesn't tell you what to do, but it does at least shine the light and tell you what the lay of the land is so that you can then make informed decisions. And the really powerful thing for me when I was working in corporations is that quite often when you're working on a product development journey or a marketing plan or a business idea, you've got lots of stakeholders around the room. Most of them have got their arms folded and they're looking grumpy. The finance people particularly, and you know, the sales department and, you know, they all need convincing because unless you take the whole team with you on that, on that business plan journey, you're not going to get anywhere. So taking people with you and all of that information and data that you collect, and then that light you shine gives people confidence, makes people relax. And so, you know, you take them with you, and get your stakeholders in on the journey. And that's why I think it's as much about that as it is about, you know, giving yourself the best possible chance of having a successful business plan.

Can I just pick up on a couple of things there Jane? One thing was, you mentioned about the HTA having done quite a lot of work on segmentation, and I believe that that's available for any HTA members, and they can access those.

It is. Yeah, it's free to all HTA members. And it's interesting because I use it a great deal. And it's really and the way HTA present it, they've packaged it in a very digestible way. So they're like pen portraits of your typical garden centre or, hardware store kind of shopper, you know? And I think that makes it very relatable and easy for even non marketeers to look at and go, oh yeah, I see that helps. So yes, it's free. Completely free if you're an HTA member.

That picture you painted for us so well when you talked about shining a light into a room, and I was just wondering about people who’re sat around that table that you're talking to, who've got preconceived ideas and how you’ve found presenting the consumer insights are received by those people who've got very strong preconceived ideas about their consumers and what they want.

Yeah. Well you come, of course, down to, persuasion and presentation skills then really. Because quite often I've got all the solid metrics in my case, I know the picture, but quite often, especially the well-heeled, and most senior directors around the table, are more interested in what their wife, their granny or their next door neighbours say. And they think that that one person who has been very loud about it must be right. So it is quite a challenge sometimes. But, you know, the numbers really talk. And if you can show that you've surveyed several hundred people on a particular topic and got a very consistent set of views about something or an opinion on something or a preference for something, it's quite hard to argue against that. You know, you feel like, well, you go and do you yourself a survey with another 400 people and see if you get the same results as me. And sometimes they do. I mean, I've been in those situations where they've not believed the data, well let’s go do it again. And of course as long as your sample size is big enough, if you've got a big sample size, the answer's always come back the same. Now, if your sample size is too small, sometimes you get weird things going on. If you got a big enough number of people in the survey, you get the same answer twice. Then you go well, we argued that.

There's a lot of new gardeners, maybe more casual gardeners around, and it can seem quite overwhelming because there's a lot of experts out there. There's this kind of feeling that if you haven't been doing it, if your grandfather wasn't doing it, your parent wasn't doing it, it can sometimes feel like you're getting it wrong all the time.

So how can gardening be made more accessible without dumbing it down, which can sometimes happen?

Yeah, that's a really interesting challenge because, we all look back fondly at the ground force years, don't we? Which generated and drove enormous product sales. But I wonder how successful it really was, engaging people into the hobby and getting them going. So I have a little anecdote that I tell, I used to live in Cambridgeshire, big garden, front garden out there every weekend. There was always something to do. And next door there was two cottages. And a young couple lived in one of the cottages, and we got to know them quite well and got quite friendly with them. And Kate had a tiny little pocket handkerchief garden, you know, she couldn't even park her car on it. And we had this great big front garden and I was out there doing it, and she walked past the front gate one morning and said, oh, morning, Jane. Hi. How are you? Yeah, in the garden. Gardening again? Yep, yep. And then she said, haven't you finished it yet? And I thought that was the most enlightening comment. Now she'd have been in her late 20s at the time. And that's the problem with the ground force, and even love your garden and some other things, you know, it positions things from a media point of view as something that you do, and then it's done, and you can walk away and it looks beautiful. And I think we're doing, the hobby, and the marketplace a disservice with that kind of, approach. Because if you're going to get good at it, if you're going to have a beautiful garden, you're going to have to put the work in, you're going to have to learn. And that's the joy. That's the joy of it. You know, its walking up the garden and seeing something that you've sown germinate. And even better, going back six later and picking it and eating it or cutting it and potting it, you know, so I think the makeover instant kind of solution things is really just a story for television programs. It's not real.

But do you not think shows are a bit like that? We can accuse a lot of the garden shows, the RHS shows of that, of presenting these perfect gardens that are quite difficult to attain.

Yeah. Well, I think that's a slightly different question, isn't it? Because that's not about instant gratification. That's about somebody who is extremely expert. And in that sense, I don't have quite so much of a problem with those because they are aspirational. And so, you know, if you go back to compare it with cookery. But, you know, we used to have that thing Ready, Steady, Cook on the telly, which was where you have a few ingredients, and somebody knocks up 2 or 3 different practical things. Great program really quickness really, really kind of engaging. And then you've got MasterChef, you know, and you watch MasterChef and think oh my God, I could never do it. I mean, look, it's fantastic. But that's the RHS flower show, on television is MasterChef. And actually I watch that occasionally and think, oh, that's a nice combination. That's a good idea. I might try, you know, you don't launch in and do the five course banquet. It makes you go, oh, I'd like to, I'd like to. So I don't have quite so much of a problem with the RHS flower show ethic.

No, that's good. I used to be heavily involved in make over shows. And I absolutely do agree with you because often as well, we'd have 2 or 3 days to build these things, you know, and you just have to just have all hands on deck. And it's not like what you see on the telly.

No, but it makes great telly. That's the thing. So that's what we have to divorce. We have to divorce what makes great telly from what encourages people to get into the hobby of gardening and actually improves the market for everybody. And I don't think in the end the television really helps much. Instagram's much better at all that now, much, much better.

But I mean, I guess it'd be interesting to get your take on what can actually be done to address that situation. You know, what are the things that we can actually do to encourage people to take that step and to start learning rather than just trying to instantly transform their garden?

I tell you what, this occurred to me the other day and, I'm always looking for parallels and I'm a bit of a gym convert. I've spent, I've got to the ripe old age of just well gone 60 and I'd never set foot in a gym because I wouldn't, you know, horrible place, wouldn't enjoy it. Don't like all that huffing and puffing. Even though I kind of knew I ought to be doing a bit of exercise. And of course, like lots of people, you know, if you do a little bit, you go to the gym once, or you go to an exercise class now and then you’re not actually doing any good. You might as well not bother. But about two years ago, for reasons I won't bore you with, I got into going to the gym, and it's become a real habit, and I have to go now, and it's made me feel so much better. And the parallel almost is. You know, for me, it feels to me a bit like the gardening parallel. You know, you can do the instant kind of go down the gym, I've been to the gym once, but until you get into that habit of wanting to do it day after day after day, you're never really going to get much out of it. I haven't really answered your question, Phil. I don't know how we get people into that. Oh, I really want to get down the garden and see if my sweet peas are flowering. I really want to go and see if that pot of what-not has germinated. I don't know how we engage with that other than, the way that you do with, you know, with things like the gym, which is you do it once, do it twice, do it. Oh, actually. Oh, this is quite good. You know what? I can't imagine life without it now. So yeah, I haven't answered your question at all Phil. Sorry.

I think social media is doing that for us now, because there's a lot more real, real gardening on social media. And you're following people's journeys on Instagram a lot more. And people who started it in lockdown, they've now all got that buzz and they can't not do it. And there's so many people now that make careers out of it with Instagram. So I think that that need is there. And I think it is being met by a lot more people than we realise.

I do agree with you and I think what you noticed about the Instagram environment is you see failure as well as success, which is quite reassuring. Whereas of course, in lots of other media channels, you only ever see the best bits, you never you never see the failures. So I think you're right. That makes it more relatable.

I think some of the most popular of the Instagram channels, they do have that authenticity about them, don't they? Where they do show the things which go wrong as well as the things which go right, which is really good.

And this summer, which has been, you know, is a really tough summer. So and people are really struggling. And I'm seeing that on Instagram every day, you know.

Talking about Instagram and social media channels, leads me nicely onto our next question, which is, how have social media platforms and influencers do you think changed the way you look at garden product marketing? Do you see it as a fundamental shift, or are they just a new channel that you can embrace?

Well, I don't think they're just a new channel because in conventional terms, you know, when I started working in marketing, the channels you use, you were broadly in control of, you could broadly define exactly how your message was delivered at the tone of voice. And, yeah, you're pretty much in control of it. Obviously, with social media, you can be influential to a certain extent. And I don't doubt that there’s some companies who are spending quite a lot of money with Instagrammers in order to get the message across in the way they want. But you're still not entirely in control because of the very nature of social media. It has a life of its own. So it's a much more honest and a much more real, channel. So I see it as something, you know, a little bit different. I have to admit, I don't do social media marketing for any of my clients. It's outside my area of expertise. Most of my clients, want me to help them with what we'd call B2B work. So my job is to understand the consumer, understand what's going to make them want to buy this product, position it, package it, price it accordingly, but then spend most of my time persuading the retailer that he should stock the product. I kind of do the B2B piece, you can't ignore the B2C, but I don't get involved in TV advertising for products or even social media for products, that it is definitely not my bag. I'm very much more a business B2B consultant.

And you haven't lost work through that, through companies thinking, actually, we can just go on Facebook and do our own marketing. It's not going to be a problem. We don't need to pay someone else.

Well, I don't think I compete in that arena because, I mean, that person would be the person who would be, you know, writing copy for the Sunday Times gardening column or the person who was placing adverts in, the BBC Gardeners World magazine or, you know, I don't kind of get into that corner of marketing at all. And I would argue that if you haven't done the building blocks behind all that first, if you haven't done your consumer insight, you don't know your segmentation, you haven't worked out what your pricing is. You've got to do all this stuff behind the scenes, which people think is probably a bit boring sometimes. That's the bit I do. And then by the time you get to the point of how are you going to present it to the customer or the consumer, then by all means, use your influencers and, you know, do your adverts and stuff.

But I do think younger, newer companies don't realise that they need to put the hard work in first and are just launching themselves straight on to social media. So I think it's interesting and I think a lot of companies, the younger companies, need to take note that actually you do need to do the hard work. You can't just employ an influencer and expect sales.

Absolutely. You need to have a strategy. You need to have all those strategic building blocks in place. To work out what it is you want to say and how you want to say it, and how you want to be perceived. Because there'll be 45 questions come up that you haven't thought of otherwise.

So we mentioned in our introduction that you're part of the HTA’s board of directors. Would you tell us a bit about the role you have in the HTA?

Yeah, of course. Obviously the HTA is a trade association. We now have a chief executive and a senior leadership team who run the association. But, there isn't a kind of set of shareholders to answer to or, you know, or anyone else for that matter. So what the board of directors does, and it's largely made up of non-executive directors, is, I suppose, really holds the management team and the chief executive to account. In the sense that we, you know, we, we kind of scrutinise the strategy for the HTA, we ensure that it remains cognisant of the member needs and requirements. And yeah, I suppose behave a bit like any non-executive board would do in that sense.

Just quickly, so you talk about members, can you give us just an example of your kind of traditional membership? Who makes that up? What kind of businesses?

Yeah, yeah. Of course. So we've really got three. We've probably got three main sets of members. We've got the landscape industry, so they’re the service industry. That might also include your garden designers and other services. Then we've got what you kind of loosely call the growers. So they're the people actually cultivating and producing the plants. And then the third group is the retailers. So those are the three main groups, and actually businesses, there's a couple of others, there's other consultants and service providers and people like me because actually my business is a member in that sense. So businesses can be right down as small as me, i.e. a single person, you know, operating as a single operator. Right up to, you know, multi-site retailers with dozens or even hundreds of outlets around the country. So it's a very, very broad church. But everybody who is a member has, some kind of investment or relationship to, the world of horticulture.

And you would recommend that anybody within the industry should, should become a member of the HTA?

Yeah. I think, it's, it's a very, dynamic and successful arena, if you like, in which to engage with all other parts of the industry, be it the supply chains, be it the service providers, you know, it's a huge networking environment, but also provides training opportunities, and things like conferences and seminars and on behalf of the membership, HTA spend a lot of time also lobbying in Westminster and with government on policy, and legislation. And so being a member of HTA enables you to not only understand what's going on in that sense, but have an opportunity to lobby for your own issues. So in that sense, it's. Yeah, it's an extremely powerful trade association.

Have you got any tips, for any businesses that are members of these trade organisations to get the most out of their membership?

Yeah. Well I think the key is to find a way of engaging, and it's an interesting observation in that, I know in GIMA, for example, it's quite a broad church, but quite a lot of those people who are deeply engaged and would sit on the council, for example, would tend to be at the commercial end of the organisation, so tend to be in the sales in the marketing end.

Now in HTA, this is a bit more diverse. And so there definitely are committees and groups, that are very commercially focussed, but there's also some strongly technical and even some kind of more legal and administrative groups. And so I think one of the ways that organisations can get the most out of these trade associations is to make sure that you're engaging in more than one, at least, you know, at least a couple of the different arenas, because there's different agendas going on in different places. Rather than just seeing it as a kind of single issue, or a single point of contact.

So something else you're very involved in, and it's something we are passionate about and big supporters of is the Green Fingers charity. So, can you tell us a bit about your involvement with Green Fingers? And what was it that drew you to be part of it?

Yeah, sure. So I think I'd been doing the green fingers garden relief day walk, you know, and I've done it several times and, when I lived down in Cambridgeshire, in the south. And then four years ago, we moved north and I think the first year I went down stayed in a hotel the night before, and I said, I thought, hang on a minute. Oh, there's all us northerners. We're all driving. I know, we'll have a northern walk. So I made this suggestion. And of course, yeah, off you go, Jane. So I've, for the last two years, organised, the garden relief day walk in March, for the North, which has been great. So it's growing. I mean, it's not as big as the southern walk yet. I think we had about 30 people this year, but it's more challenging because we go up hills and, you know, down in Cambridgeshire or Oxfordshire or the Chilterns, they just do a little bit of gentle kind of, you know. It's like, no, no, we're on the peak District here, we go up hills. So it was quite tough this year, A the route was quite tough and B it poured and poured with rain. So we sloshed round and but it was good. Really good.

But yeah, you still think you had fun. So, you know, that’s got to be a good thing.

Yeah, we did. And actually, funny enough, it's one of the things where, I’ve debated with Linda about this, about making the walk challenging, and not making it too easy because although if it was easy, more people might kind of wander up the whole point of doing it is to put yourself through a little bit of a challenge. You know, you're only putting yourself through a tiny fraction of the challenge that the families that we're raising money for are going through. So, you know, we feel like so, you know, going up a hill, getting very tired with blisters, getting very wet and very cold. It's not a bad thing. If you put yourself through it a bit. And there was bacon sandwiches and hot tea and coffee and beer at the end, they were fine.

I think I might have to try and arrange one on Dartmoor for the South-West contingent.

Talking about being involved in things, you seem to be wearing lots of hats, Jane, but I know you're actually involved with the YPHA as well, in the launch success programme. Can you tell me about that?

Yeah. I'm very excited about that. Yeah, you'll have spotted that I do quite a lot of things, which are nothing to do with earning money anymore. And actually, just before we talk about YPHA, I should explain that. So horticulture, as I explained, I think I got my first job in horticulture in 1984, and this industry has given me a fantastic career. I've had a lovely time. It's been a really exciting sector to work in. I've done lots of different jobs. I've met loads of people, and I've really, really enjoyed it. I'm heading towards retirement now and I'm going to retire a little early, admittedly. But I decided that what I would like to do in the next ten year phase of my life is rather than knitting or whatever it is, you know, obviously I'm building a garden and that's a big part. But I wanted to find things to do which would allow me to put something back now and go, oh, this has been a great industry for me. So I'm going to carry on. So that's why that's why I'm really enjoying HTA. And we've already talked about Greenfingers, and YPHA came up a couple of years ago, I think when they were starting up, and I had I done a presentation somewhere I can't remember where in a garden centre, I think, for something. And, Nat Porter, well she's not Porter anymore. Anyway, when she was Nat Porter had seen this. She must have seen this presentation. So when she started setting up the YPHA, she rang up and said, would you come and be an ambassador for us? So yeah, I'd love to. So I've had the pleasure of going to a couple of their events where everybody else in the room is kind of 20 something, and then there's me. I love it, it's quite fun. And then when we got talking about the Launch Success challenge, I said, well, you know, how can I help? And so actually, it's next week. I've got the candidates, half of them in the morning and the other half in the afternoon, to talk about commercialisation of new products, and help them on their journey, hopefully, with the competition.

They've just come back from, Holland, haven't they, where they've been seeing the plant that they're going to be working with.

Yeah they have. Yes. Yeah. That's right. So next week, Michael Perry and I are doing a two hander. We've got two groups, so he does one in the morning, I do one in the morning, and then we switch. And Michael's going to talk about naming conventions, and I'm going to say it, the colouring in piece. Yeah. You know how you actually make it look good, although I'm very derogatory about it, you do need somebody to do the colouring in. It is important. So yeah, he's going to talk about the branding and how you position it and make it exciting and compelling. And I'm going to do some of those building blocks we talked about, some of the strategic building blocks of getting all the pieces behind the scenes right. So, yeah, so hopefully they'll come away with a better understanding of some of that process.

So I think it's pretty obvious that you enjoy gardening, Jane. Do you find much time to garden, or is that what you're waiting for when you kind of slow yourself down a little bit, to really crack on?

No, I make time now. So, I keep my client work contained to 2 or 3 days a week. That leaves me a day or maybe two, a day and a half, to do my pro bono and stuff and charity and stuff like that, and that split will shift as the next couple of years come along.

And then yeah, I spend quite a significant amount of time in the garden. We moved here from Cambridgeshire four years ago. We've got a tiny pocket handkerchief at the back of the house, and then over the lane we have an acre, which was, chickens and pigs. It was just pigs. Pigs on one half and chickens on the rest. And a pond, which we filled in.

So have you got big plans for that?

Well, I think, largely the structure is now pretty much ready, I have had a bit of help, admittedly, because we had to have bulldozers in because it's also on a very steep slope and faces north. So it's sloping north, at 1000ft. It's quite a challenge.

You do like a challenge.

Yeah, I do. I've learnt a lot about what you can and cannot grow up here. So it is broadly laid out now. But you know what it's like, you know, I've always got what I want, a pergola walk here, and I want some more raised beds there, and I need to level this bit.

And, there's a really horrible, weedy bit behind the greenhouse. What am I going to do with that? All of that. So, I'll be happy. And it's quite funny because my husband, he bought me last year a big summer house which has gone up there so I can now go up there, make a cup of tea, sit and look at the view. The views are fantastic. But he's into model railways and he's built himself a beautiful, outbuilding in the back garden at the bottom. So we're about 50 yards apart, probably. But he's down in his train shed, and I'm up in my summer house. I need to get some intercom, something going on.

Sounds like the perfect recipe for retirement, though. Yeah. So do you have a plant that would always bring a smile to your face, no matter how kind of stressed you are?

Well, do you know I am going to mention something which is probably pretty unpopular in most places? So as I said, I gardened previously, on the fens in Cambridgeshire where the rainfall was very low. It was very temperate. And now I look back and realise how easy it was. We then four years ago moved to the Peak District, 1000ft north facing steep slope. Gosh, it's much tougher. And lots of things that I've tried to grow of just refused. So the things I like now are the brave little things that really cope and do well and it's almost the things I have to pull up. If I have to pull it up or or prune it, I like it because it's coping. So I'm going to say, brace yourselves, I'm going to say alchemilla mollis and everybody's going to go, what? It's a weed. No, no. It's beautiful. Honestly, it is completely clothing the floor where nothing else will grow. It's beautiful in the rain because it gets all those little white jewel like spots all over it, you know, it flowers. You can cut it back. It does it again before the end of the season. So, it's a horror really, to most people, but it does make me smile.

Slightly different to you, where I used to live, rabbits ate everything. I mean, everything apart from alchemilla mollis. So it's a similar one for me. And I love the flowers, and you pick them, put them in a vase, with enough foliage to detract a bit, but it's such a hardy little thing. Okay. It's also known as Ladies Mantle.

Yeah, but it is a bit of a love-hate. It's a bit of a marmite plant. Lots of people would say they would have it. They wouldn't have it because it's invasive. It germinates everywhere. It's lovely.

Well, I think that just about wraps it up Jane. Thank you so much for talking to us, it’s been fascinating learning about everything you get involved in.

And a different side of marketing as well.

Yeah, it's been a real pleasure. Feels very indulgent to talk about yourself for all that time.

So Phil, having worked in a marketing team, or I should say, with a marketing team. And I really thought Jane's approach was, very interesting and different. I know I could see you were getting off on the whole metric system and the data, so. Yeah. What did you think?

Oh, I thought it was really fascinating. I think the idea of customer segmentation is really good. I think lots of people don't bother doing that. And I so I think that was really good that she emphasised the importance of that side of things. I think being able to get consumer insight is really crucial. If you want to be able to market your product effectively, really being able to understand what a consumer's looking for in a product.

Yeah. Well, I've known companies to completely turn around their whole kind of product development because of insights and research that's come back. So, you know, you really need to do it in the early stages. Otherwise you're going to waste a lot of time and money.

And I think one of the things, my question was slightly self-indulgent, the amount of people I've come across and talked to them about their marketing and they have these preconceived ideas. And they don't want to change because they think they know what the answers are. And you know, you present them with the facts and they still don't want to listen. Yeah. And it can be really tough, but I think it was great for Jane to say, you know, the importance of that and actually being able to listen and use those recommendations.

What I’m finding interesting is that we've spoken to quite a few women who are part of HTA, GIMA, Greenfingers, and they are all just incredible, aren't they? All wearing so many hats and they're so productive and they're also really approachable. So I just think it's such a great part of the industry to see that not only women holding really interesting roles, but that they are helping so many other people and are so engaged with what's going on. It's really heartening to see that.

Oh, it's fantastic. And, you know, it's lovely, Jane saying, you know, that the industry is given her a, you know, a good, good life, a good, good, living over, over the years. And she wants to give something back. So that's really nice to see.