Phil Wright: So it's the final day at Glee, which is why we are in florals. And we're here with Dan Durston: and Simon Blackhurst: , representing Durstons. We're delighted to say that you're back, returning to talk to us once more. We didn't manage to put you off last year, so welcome.
Kate Turner: Thanks for joining us. Wonderful. We're just going to kick off really quickly. Last week was Four Oaks, so it's all been a bit of a whirl. You were discussing what's the next step for peat-free. You were doing a talk, weren't you, Simon? What did you hear that tells you where the industry has got to now?
Simon Blackhurst: One thing that I did think was really positive: there was a general agreement that the quality of peat-free compost has increased, and there are some good-quality products out there. But on the other side, we also heard that there are some products that are not performing where they need to be, which is a difficult situation for the growing media manufacturers. Overall, we had probably the best audience we've had in terms of numbers, so people were interested and listening to what we were saying. My role was to try and allay some concerns and explain that we are getting there. It is getting better and better.
Kate Turner: It's interesting because, walking around Glee, there's quite a lot of products, not compost manufacturers, but people who are coming up with products and saying, "This will make your peat-free compost perform better because it's so rubbish." It's an interesting one, isn't it?
Simon Blackhurst: I really struggle with it because, actually, if you make a good-quality product, you don't need any additives. There are always specifics. You can use things like changing colours on hydrangeas. That would be a specific which I totally agree with. But formulating something for a poor peat-free isn't the answer. Fix the peat-free in the first place. Produce good-quality products. You don't need lots of different additives.
Kate Turner: Would you not say that's just other smaller companies jumping on the bandwagon, maybe to make some money out of peat-free? For them to keep the narrative that peat-free is poor-performing kind of helps their business. That's a bit of a challenge, isn't it?
Simon Blackhurst: It does. In terms of commercials, and I know this is more your area, but you can obviously make more money on ferts and chems than you can on a bag of brown dirt that people don't necessarily give much respect to. So I'm all about elevating the soil, the compost, the growing media, so that people understand, make the right decision, choose the right product. Don't just go on price. Look at quality and the ingredients that are used. You won't need to spend any more money on other things.
Kate Turner: I went off-piste there, didn't I?
Phil Wright: So Dan, I understand that Durstons actually won an award at Four Oaks. Tell us a little bit about that.
Dan Durston: We were very lucky. We entered our Advanced Tub & Basket Compost into the New Retail Product of the Year and, very proud to say, we were pulled out as winners.
Simon Blackhurst: We knew it was great. The endorsement's nice, isn't it?
Phil Wright: So if the product's good, not just that product, but peat-free is good, why is there still such a debate about peat-free versus peat compost? Why is it so contentious?
Dan Durston: I think because retailers want to have a peat-free offering comparable to a peat-based offering on price. Manufacturers are sometimes forced to make a product for a price, and therefore it's not a very good product. That's something we try not to get involved with. We make a product to be as good as it can be, at the price it needs to be at. And if it doesn't compete with peat-based products, then so be it.
Kate Turner: Does that come more from the big DIY stores and the supermarkets rather than garden centres, this kind of "lower the price"?
Simon Blackhurst: I would say it's a mixture of both. We've had some great conversations at Glee where performance has been the first thing that people have spoken to us about. But then, equally, on the flip side, we've had, "Well, the price point needs to be this," and that's the start of the conversation. I'm not really supposed to, but we've both sort of said that isn't how it works in Durstons. It is very, very difficult. It's something I said at Four Oaks last week. For me, we're just really not valuing the growing media properly. Certain retailers are still striving for this three-for-ten cheap product, and it's not helping any of us.
Kate Turner: But that's always been the case, hasn't it? I think I've probably said it when I last spoke to you: someone will spend thirty quid on a David Austin rose, twenty-five quid on a beautiful pot...
Simon Blackhurst: It's the quote a lot of us use. And then £1.99 on a bag of compost and expect wonderful results.
Kate Turner: And wonder why it doesn't work.
Phil Wright: I think because you can't see the compost in the pot, people therefore don't necessarily value the compost.
Kate Turner: I think there is more of a movement, though, because soil health has become a really big thing, moving forward, and about it being the foundation. I talk to a lot of gardeners doing garden talks, and they want to go peat-free. They definitely want to, and they're getting it. They're getting that soil, it's not just a bag of dirt. So we need to get it through to the buyers.
Phil Wright: So Simon, last year when you were on the podcast, you told us that you wanted to get to a point where we no longer talked about peat-free, but we were talking about just compost. We're not really getting there yet.
Simon Blackhurst: No, we're not. If anything, we're moving back the other way. It's a real difficult one. Because nothing's happened at government level, we're still in limbo, and we'll continue to be in limbo until somebody makes the decision of, "We are or we are not going to ban peat." I'm not going to say which way I want it to go, but we do need some form of decision because it's just making it really, really difficult. In my opinion, yes, it should just be growing media. And the peat that we have, and the peat that's available, should be used in professional, where we're still struggling with some of the research and development areas.
So reserve that material that we know how it performs whilst we're doing the trials in growing food, for example, the things where we can't really add additional cost because it affects consumers and their lives. But yes, I would like it just to be, first of all, called growing media, not compost. I don't think that will ever happen, not unless I can get right to the BBC or something. But it shouldn't really be peat or peat-free. Again, I don't think I'm big enough to make that change.
Kate Turner: Can I ask, have we got to the point where we're seeing a lot more peat being imported over from other countries now? Has that ramped up a bit?
Simon Blackhurst: We have imports of peat, and I would probably say, my opinion, yes, more than we have in previous years. We're waiting to publish the growing media monitoring data, which should be out at the end of the year, so I can't give you a definitive. But the Baltic peat is very different to UK and Irish peat. It's very, very light. It's classed as blonde peat, so it's younger. So it's not actually comparable.
Kate Turner: It's more similar to peat-free, is it?
Simon Blackhurst: Well, no. It's more dusty. It flies away. So actually it doesn't have the same properties. It's younger peat. You can't just replace the Irish peat with straight blonde peat. It doesn't work quite like that, both technically and in the product.
Phil Wright: Is the environmental impact the same in the Baltic, extracting the peat?
Simon Blackhurst: Don't know. I mean, fundamentally, peat is a carbon storage. So utilising it is not going to be a positive thing.
Phil Wright: Last year, you both talked about establishing a minimum performance standard. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how that's going? I know, Simon, you're really involved in that in some way, but from your perspective, Dan, have you been involved in that as well?
Dan Durston: We've been doing growing trials for the last two years, and we're just about to start our third year of growing trials. I think it is important that us manufacturers are asked to prove our quality on a minimum standard to improve the quality of product that's on the marketplace. I know it's something that the GMA are pushing forward for next year.
Simon Blackhurst: So I chair the GMA.
Phil Wright: Which stands for?
Simon Blackhurst: Growing Media Association. We've got everybody back together, bar a couple, which is really, really great. We're going to have our first meeting later on in the year, first in person for a long time, so great to see colleagues. I've really been pushing for a minimum quality standard, just so that growing media can germinate seeds, grow plants, keep them alive. Relatively basic. But without that, there will still be product on the market that isn't fit for purpose. It will also help retailers make a formal decision. This product, we know, will at least meet the baseline. And if they want to choose a cheaper product that doesn't, that's their moral decision.
Phil Wright: Do you see that there's a difference now, though, with peat-free as opposed to traditional peat-based growing media, where you can't really have a multi-purpose any more? So you have to have a little bit more specialist. You mentioned growing from seeds and germinating seeds. I understand, not being a horticulturalist, that actually that's quite tricky with peat-free compost in general because they're quite rich in certain nutrients which aren't necessarily good for germinating.
Kate Turner: But there are some really good seed and cutting...
Phil Wright: Well, but that's what I'm saying. You have to have an individual, more specific, tailored for what you're doing.
Simon Blackhurst: Multi-purpose is a marketing idea, obviously. It is to try and capture all. One of the problems we have is it's quite a complicated thing when you go to the garden centre and look for growing media or compost or whatever you want to call it. How do you know what you actually need? Look for the terminology for the job that you're doing. Soil improvement: buy a soil improver. You're just going to dig it into your garden. Don't use materials that don't need to be. I think that's the key piece.
Kate Turner: It's education as well, isn't it?
Simon Blackhurst: I think all of us, there are other associations and we're all working, like the Garden Centre Association, on educational pieces. I know there's stuff happening in the background for new courses for garden centres to help them train both their plant people, but also give that information to consumers. I think the problem is, and it always comes back to growing media or compost, it's probably a tertiary decision. We said it before: you've chosen the beautiful plant, then you like the pot, then you go, "Oh, I need some soil. What do I do?" And all you can see is a mass of things, let's just say, if you're not an expert.
Dan Durston: It's not that you can't use multi-purpose compost for seed sowing, but if they're delicate seeds or you want even better results, then you should use a dedicated seed compost.
Kate Turner: But that's been the same with peat-based growing media. It's always been that way.
Simon Blackhurst: That's not changed. A multi-purpose, 100% peat, will still have relatively high levels of nutrients, which a gentle seed would not cope with. So that has always been the case. I think also there's something to be said that the quality of peat has changed over the last ten years. So those that say, "I love peat, peat, peat," it's not the same as it was.
Phil Wright: I didn't realise that. Tell me about that.
Dan Durston: I think you're talking Irish peat, aren't you?
Simon Blackhurst: When I first started, the Irish peat was the most beautiful, loveliest, fluffiest material ever. I've still got a sample in my garage. And obviously, as we get further down and we go further into the bog, it does change. It's changed as well, is my point. That's all I'm saying. Don't think that it's just stayed the same.
Kate Turner: So with you, Dan, Durstons was actually built on peat bogs. I don't know if you'd call it a commercial tension, but maybe there is a little one in that you've invested heavily in peat-free, and obviously it's been paying off. You've won awards. But you still offer peat-based products because there is this demand for them. At what point does a manufacturer lead the customer rather than follow them?
Dan Durston: That's a very good question that I probably don't know the answer to, actually. But we are sort of happy to offer peat-based products. When I say peat-based, they only have 50% peat in. So peat-reduced or peat-based, whichever way you want to call it. As long as there's a demand, we're going to offer peat-based products. Those peat-based products are the Traditional range and the Everyday range.
Kate Turner: But if there had been a peat ban, you wouldn't have been able to do that. So are you kind of not putting all your eggs in one basket? Is that how it's turned out a bit?
Dan Durston: That's exactly it. If and when there is a peat ban, then we can offer, we're ready, but we can only offer the Advanced range. And there are some products in the Traditional range that are peat-free already.
Kate Turner: And you still have issues with ericaceous? Is that still a problem, getting a really good peat-free ericaceous? Are you working on that?
Dan Durston: Personally, for me, we've done lots of trials on different materials to get the pH right for ericaceous compost, and as yet we haven't found one that we're happy enough to go with as a peat-free. So we're going to remain peat-based on ericaceous.
Kate Turner: But you said it's not 100% peat-based.
Dan Durston: No. But I think there could be an exception, if and when there is a peat ban, for ericaceous.
Kate Turner: Right. Interesting, because quite a lot of manufacturers do sell peat-free ericaceous. Have you found any, Simon, in your trials? I'm not going to ask you to name names, but do you think this is across the board? It's a tough one.
Simon Blackhurst: It is a tough one. I did speak to a professional grower last week at Four Oaks who said, "Do you know what? It's working. We've found a mix with a specific manufacturer," and their rhododendrons are doing really well. So we're moving forward, which is fantastic. I don't know about the commercials. That's what it probably boils down to. There are acidic materials out there that we can utilise, and we can bring the pHs down. I think, for me, the only concern is they need to be long-term trials. We think of a rhododendron...
Kate Turner: It's a long-lived plant.
Simon Blackhurst: Exactly. You may need to do five-year trials to check that it flowers abundantly, to check that it's happy over that period of time. It's not like a bedding plant: within four to six weeks, you know if it's happy or not. So I know there's a lot of work happening in the background. I know there are some materials there, but it usually comes down to commercials, as it always does.
Phil Wright: So Dan, I'm interested. I know that you have different ranges. Do you look at what the customers are asking for? Not your customers as in the retailers, but the actual end users, the gardeners. Are they looking for price, performance, or are they actually now looking for the job to be done?
Dan Durston: It's very varied. You get your proper gardeners that know what they're looking for, and they go performance first and not worry so much about the price. And you get the others, as we mentioned: it's completely an afterthought, and they say, "Where's the cheapest compost?" They just grab it and load their car.
Phil Wright: But that makes it really difficult for you as a company to understand how best to market and bring your products to market and range them, for someone to actually know which one they should be choosing, doesn't it? Because you can't market in this way for these people and this way for those people...
Phil Wright: Because you end up with a range that’s unmanageable.
Dan Durston: The three ranges that we have kind of cater for good, better, best.
Phil Wright: Okay. And that's the Traditional...
Dan Durston: The Everyday, the Traditional and the Advanced.
Simon Blackhurst: It gives the consumer a choice, doesn't it? If they're specifically price-conscious, they can take the Everyday range. If they want something that they feel is more traditional, they can obviously choose that. And then the Advanced, it's what it says on the tin sort of thing.
Phil Wright: Is that something that you've been doing for a while now, or is that something you introduced when you did the whole rebrand and bringing in the new peat-free?
Dan Durston: It is something we've been doing for a while, but not as obvious. So we've aligned it with Everyday, Traditional, Advanced: good, better, best.
Simon Blackhurst: You had all the sub-brands under the Durstons brand that were catered for different markets, which some you still have.
Kate Turner: Can I ask, was it a year ago you launched the new rebrand? Obviously we talked to you about that. How has it been a year on? Has it made a difference? Have more people been talking to you? I mean, it's an amazing brand. It's beautiful.
Dan Durston: I think a year ago people saw the brand and said, "Wow, that's lovely." I think in this year they've seen what we've been doing in the media, in the press. They've seen the livery, and I think they recognise it and trust the product. And they've tried it. Honestly, the last two days on our stand has been non-stop.
Simon Blackhurst: People have tried it, and that's the best thing from my point of view, selfishly, because I know that it's working out there.
Dan Durston: Well, I'm exactly the same. I've got complete trust in the product, and we say, "If you're not sure, try it."
Kate Turner: And obviously winning the award at Four Oaks, that kind of says yes. Will that help? Has that got more people talking to you this week, would you say, because you won an award?
Dan Durston: It's been mentioned quite a bit.
Kate Turner: Right, okay. That's good to know.
Phil Wright: We touched on it a little bit, about government policy. Can you just fill us in on where we're at now, and what is happening, if anything?
Simon Blackhurst: As far as I'm aware, there aren't any major changes at all.
Kate Turner: We've got a new government since we last...
Phil Wright: Two new prime ministers.
Simon Blackhurst: There's a lot of current issues that the public are interested in, and peat, you don't feel, is up there. The NGOs are continuing to do their bit. We've got the Peat-free Partnership. The MP Sarah Dyke, she's still very active. And we have a new environment minister, I think, if I'm correct. But I don't see anything changing very soon. Perhaps we should make more of the decision ourselves. We kind of appreciate what is the right thing to do.
Phil Wright: There does seem to be quite a lot of the industry going, "Well, we're not going to make any decisions until the government has said this is definitively what's happening. We'll just continue because we don't know." Should the industry actually band together and just say, "No, this is where we're going"?
Kate Turner: But there are big voices, aren't there, on the peat side?
Simon Blackhurst: We have so many stocks of peat that's already been harvested. It needs to be used. But why are we using it in retail? We don't need to, is my opinion. If we move that to where we need to in the professional market, allow that market to develop where it needs to. We've done so much work on retail peat-free. We have some amazing products out there that really do work, and often better than peat. For certain plants I can get double the size. It's incredible. So let's, as an industry, band together and say, "Look, we're not going to put peat into the retail market. We're going to save it, and we're going to make good-quality peat-frees." I'll probably get shot for that, but that's my opinion.
Kate Turner: I think that's the way it should go, but it all boils down to money as well.
Simon Blackhurst: Commercial advantages I totally respect. There's only so many retailers. There's only so many bags that are sold in a year. But I do think, as an industry, we generally help each other in most things. So on this, we also really should be supporting.
Kate Turner: Hopefully the quality standard that you're looking at...
Simon Blackhurst: I'm hoping that will make a difference.
Kate Turner: If that comes through, that should make a difference, because then some of the rubbish bags will just not be sold, and there'll be more space for good-quality brands to come into.
Phil Wright: So you're making this quality standard...
Simon Blackhurst: There will be a stamp, as such.
Phil Wright: Tell us how that will actually work from the consumer's point of view. How are they going to know what's going on?
Simon Blackhurst: There'll be information in the Which? magazine next year, which will tell the consumers what to look out for in the next year or so. We have difficulties in terms of the amount of film that we buy. So to get film on pack can take a couple of years. We have to buy a lot of film to keep the price low. However, things like point of sale will be available to have the logo if the manufacturer's products meet the requirements. This is the Growing Media Association partnered with the Responsible Sourcing Scheme. We've come together to put this together. So there'll be a lot of information on the RSS website, which actually gets quite a lot of visitors. There's QR codes on the back, so people are scanning. It's working.
Kate Turner: Consumers? That's consumers that are doing that?
Simon Blackhurst: Exactly. The more that we talk about it, the more people understand. So there'll be loads of information on there in terms of what it is, what we've looked at, if they want to look at it. But visually it will be: this has gone through a period of rigorous testing to ensure that it does do, at least minimum, what it should. There will obviously be products that are better than that, and there'll be products that are sort of mid-range, but that will hopefully set the minimum.
Kate Turner: To me it's a no-brainer, that.
Simon Blackhurst: It's been difficult. Obviously I've had to spend the time getting the Growing Media Association back together, making it into a real company, getting the terms of reference and all those things. That's taken me a long time, and it's not really a job. I don't get paid for it.
Kate Turner: It's a passion project.
Simon Blackhurst: It's a passion project. But I'm happy to say that everyone's on board. Had a good chat with Catherine Dawson yesterday. She just sense-checked that for me. It will happen. I will make it happen.
Phil Wright: How does it work with regards to, because I understand that when you're creating peat-free products, there's obviously lots of different ingredients that go in, the mixing process, and things like environmental conditions can change a batch. So how can this stamp of approval cover something which might change from batch to batch?
Simon Blackhurst: Specifications. It's just like the food industry. Things can change. Apples are not the same every year, but you can make apple juice that tastes the same. I know that's very much more controlled. But if you know what your raw materials are, where they're coming from, and you have tight specifications and acceptance criteria, they fit that material, they all blend together at spec level and they work. Your variances shouldn't be that huge. Where the problem lies is if we accept material that isn't perhaps fit for purpose. Commercially we use it, then that batch could be ruined. Also, longevity of understanding your supply chain. Many of us have got suppliers that we've worked with for, well, you guys have probably got forty years' worth of compost suppliers, things like that.
So we understand the product, we understand the materials. Set a spec. Don't budge from it.
Kate Turner: Does that even go through, because obviously you've got the Gro Fibre, which is a fairly new development, really?
Dan Durston: It's new to us, but Simon's been dealing with it for many years. So he knows the stability of it. He recommended it to us. And also, specifically to us, the Gro Boost that we create, it's aged and composted further and blended with other products so that we know the end result is repeatable and stable, which is so vital.
Phil Wright: So Dan, a question for you then on that. Obviously you don't produce all the ingredients yourselves. You have to buy things in to help mix together. When they arrive on site, is there some sort of process that you have to go through, not you personally, but you go through to check the quality of the ingredients that are arriving on site?
Dan Durston: Yes, we check all the ingredients.
Simon Blackhurst: Positive release.
Phil Wright: Sorry?
Simon Blackhurst: Positive release. As in, does it match the specification? It's now positively released to production. So it's something we've been working on.
Dan Durston: We don’t call it that.
Simon Blackhurst: Well, it's not your department of it. That's when I go into the factory and I train the people that are there. So we've been doing that for the last couple of years now, elevating what tests they can do to check that the materials are right. There's plenty of quick things you can do. pH, EC, dead easy. A bit of material, a bit of water, you can do it. Nitrate: how many times have I shown you a little stick and gone, "This is good," or, "This is bad"? So that's where I work with the factory element of it to get the QC where it needs to be.
Phil Wright: So if you do come across an ingredient that's subpar, what do you do then? I suppose it depends on what the problem is. Are there things that you can add to make it better, or do you then say, "No, actually, we just can't use that"?
Simon Blackhurst: Like the summer, like we've had this really, really hot summer...
Dan Durston: We've had to deal with a different issue that we never thought we would have to this year, which was our green compost that was coming in was too light.
Simon Blackhurst: Too dusty.
Dan Durston: Yes. Because the time it was being composted at the green compost manufacturer, it was very, very dry. So when we get it, it's also very, very dry, and it creates a dust problem.
Simon Blackhurst: Equally, on a chemical version, because there's less water, it increases the salt levels, which is not helpful because we know that green compost is quite full of salt. So we had to go through quite a bit of that.
Dan Durston: So we've had to add water to it at the beginning of our windrow process to speed up the composting.
Kate Turner: And that's going to put the cost up because you're using more water, presumably.
Dan Durston: It's going to add to the cost, for sure.
Simon Blackhurst: But then, a few years ago, people were spending a lot of money putting up covers to dry it. So it's difficult. It's very difficult.
Kate Turner: You can't win, can you?
Simon Blackhurst: It is hard. I think one of the things that's been quite evident this year is looking at drought and having some resilience, if we can, having a water butt at home, all the different ways. I know you must talk about that a lot.
Kate Turner: A lot, yes. I've even done videos of me in the shower, standing in a bucket.
Phil Wright: With your clothes on?
Kate Turner: Just below the knees.
Phil Wright: Okay, I'll look out for that one.
Kate Turner: But yes, lots of different ways, just for the home gardener. But then again, we know what the UK is like, and we're probably up for the wettest autumn and winter. So everyone getting in their drought-resilient plants are then going to think, "They're all dying because it's too wet."
Simon Blackhurst: Because they're rotting.
Kate Turner: So it's really tough. It is difficult.
Phil Wright: So, with your crystal ball, if we were to walk into a really good growing media section of a garden centre in five years' time, what's it going to look like?
Simon Blackhurst: Hopefully full of quality marks, showcasing that the products available work. This is sort of my thing. And potentially somebody bringing out a product, I'm trying to get you to do it, that's called growing media. Don't know if it's a selling point. It's not going to happen.
Kate Turner: It's not sexy, is it?
Dan Durston: Just wall-to-wall Durstons.
Simon Blackhurst: Just a big pink D.
Dan Durston: But I guess you're asking whether we'll be peat-free in five years' time, and I don't think so. I'd really like to think so, but the way the government legislation has been drifting on, I can't see it being in place.
Kate Turner: Do you think that the companies like B&Q that went peat-free very early on, will they stay peat-free? You don't think people are going to go back?
Simon Blackhurst: They've got enough evidence to support that what they're doing is the right thing.
Kate Turner: And people are buying it still.
Simon Blackhurst: It would be really sad if we went backwards. We talked about that last year. We said we don't want to go backwards. We've done so much great work in retail to get it to peat-free.
Kate Turner: It's just getting that message. Stop listening to all the naysayers, especially on social media.
Simon Blackhurst: There's so many. You don't engage. I can't say anything.
Kate Turner: You've just got to put that message forward. And it's not just putting it forward, it's showing. Because I planted a tub and basket for the Toby Buckland show, in the tub and basket, in May, and it is still going strong. All I've done is fed it, but it's still flowering. The dahlia's still flowering, the cosmos is still flowering. Although whether it might still be when I go home after six days away! But to me that just shows things can grow really well. We can do it. People just need to stop being so negative.
Dan Durston: We all need to be commercially competitive, but we've always prided ourselves on reaching top quality for that very reason, because we want to resell product and resell product. Once a consumer has used it and tried it and can trust it, they'll come back.
Simon Blackhurst: A big point for Dan that I really liked yesterday, that he said, is, "My name is on it." Everybody knows where he lives now.
Dan Durston: Don't want to get it wrong.
Phil Wright: So we're asking everyone that we're talking to at Glee this year a final question, and that is: what's one thing that the garden sector can learn from outside of the industry?
Simon Blackhurst: I think we could do less of picking on each other a little bit, sometimes. That's a different angle. Because we do have sometimes some negativity towards things that actually we just don't really need.
Phil Wright: That's really interesting, though, because lots of people we speak to say, "Oh, the garden sector, the garden industry, it's one big happy family." But actually there are some niggles that go on.
Simon Blackhurst: There are some. And I think we should all be together.
Dan Durston: I think, for me, it would be an education piece where the staff inside garden centres can recommend products or types of products, so that they have some sort of training. We as a business are very willing to help train garden centre staff on growing media, obviously not everything, so that the customers can ask the question and get an answer straight away.
Kate Turner: It really makes a big difference.
Phil Wright: That's brilliant. Well, thank you so much, both of you, for coming to see us again.
Dan Durston: Thank you very much for having us back.
Simon Blackhurst: They'll only focus on these shirts.
Phil Wright: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much, and enjoy the rest of the show.
Dan Durston: and Simon Blackhurst: Thank you.